103 réponses à ce sujet

[Magic Zarim]

Abriael_CG wrote...

Actually I disagree that the music in most western RPG is bad, DA:O is quite an example of an awesome soundtrack. 

I don't think anyone said DA:O music is bad. But when you look at how the music supports the game, then it falls short. DA:O's theme song for instance is that - a complete song with a buildup, middle and an ending. It's a song on its own. But the song doesn't particularly set a mood for areas, cutscenes and such. It's just there as DA:O BGM. It doesn't do more than just being there as BGM. Pretty much every cutscene had the same basic theme, not playing on the mood, tension and importance of certain cutscenes. The landsmeeting for example could do with its own dedicated sound track that would consist of deep tones, displaying tension and the build up to the outcome of the landsmeet. The game completely lacks such creativity using music. Generic battle theme A. Generic area theme B. That's it. The music is there to fill up the game, not to take the player for a ride.

[Valente11]

Sorry, I'm as big a Bioware fan as anyone else here, but I have to admit that jrpg's are way ahead of western games in regards to music. I've never experienced the "wow" feeling I had with the tracks from FF9 or Super Mario Galaxy. That's not to say that western music isn't good, but it is very peripheral, even Mass Effect's soundtrack started annoying me towards the end.



also, for all those bashing jrpg's for not being a "popular". This is one of the most ingorant comments I've read on these forums. People should realized that western rpg's like Dragon Age and Mass Effect sell horribly in Japan, just like jrpg's sell bad here. The only jrpgs that ever succeed here are the Final Fantasies. It's a cultural barrier, both markets have different ideas to what makes a good game.

[Zugin]

Big Jrpgs sell decenlty in North America.. new FF will probably outsell both DAO and ME2.

[Wicked 702]

HighlandBerserkr wrote...

Best music EVER in a game for me as far as emotional punch and mood setting at just the right moments was Xenogears. Music from the same composer as Chrono Trigger, Yasunori Mitsuda.

Sigh....time to bust out the Ipod. Quite possibly two of the best games/soundtracks ever....

[spernus]

Zugin wrote...

Big Jrpgs sell decenlty in North America.. new FF will probably outsell both DAO and ME2.

The only big jrpg left in the west is Final fantasy. FF XIII should sell well in the west,but it probably won't outsell Oblivion or Fallout 3.It should outsell both Dragon age and Mass effect 2.Then again,let's admit that Bioware game aren't the most popular around.

I'm guessing 1.5/2 million copies sold in the US for FF XIII.It should sell slightly less in Europe and the rest of the world and I think it can get to 6 million worldwide.

On the subject of soundtrack,they are much better in Japan.It's not just about jrpg,but it's across every genre of game.I think one of the big reason is the cultural difference between Japan and North america/europe.The japanese music industry is much weaker or smaller and thus,it's probably better for some talented people who work in music to get a job in the videogame industry (and there is actually a decent market for japanese videogame OST).Here,I think the most talented people seek to work in the movie industry or get in an orchestra or something.

Modifié par spernus, 06 février 2010 - 01:09 .

[Challseus]

HighlandBerserkr wrote...

Thanks for the link. I've got the playlist playing at the moment.

EDIT - While I never played this game, I used to listen to RPGMusic Fan Radio before it shut down, and discovered another track from the game that I still listen to to this day, "Flight".

Modifié par Challseus, 06 février 2010 - 01:08 .

[OH-UP-THIS!]

As if I give a crap for any FF iteration. Keep it!!

[SleeplessInSigil]

ohupthis wrote...

As if I give a crap for any FF iteration. Keep it!!

You just wish an WRPG would have the flair for this kind of style and sexiness. :happy:

[bussinrounds]

This is my sht right here...

[AlanC9]

[quote]SleeplessInSigil wrote...

Hmm ... so since I didn't like FO3 much , I shouldn't bother with FF XIII? Good to know, but I gave up on JRPGs eons ago.
[/quote]I said, the reasons which you think make DA better than FO3, are the same reasons why FF13 would be better than DA.[/quote]

Yep -- completely misread you. Still, the question for me is whether FF13 would do the things that caused me to loathe JRPGs, even if it does the things that I like about DA too.

[ShakeZoohla]

To me Mass Effect's music is up there with any japanese game I have played.

[Frozenflamekid]

Fexelea wrote...

Tyrion-Imp wrote...

So it looks like Japanese RPGs have died at the hands of Western developers that can churn out a much better and more mature experience, both in repect to storytelling and gameplay mechanics. I think since about 4 years, Western RPGs have really been kicking some ass when it comes to storytelling, presentation, battle systems etc.

Sorry, but I have to call BS.

JRPGs are certainly not dead, and saying that they are immature is just silly. Maturity has nothing to do with audience: the fact that a western audience prefers certain themes over others does not mean the Japanese audience is immature.

One must not forget the incredible quantity of jrpgs that hit the market every year: the mass appeal of some of these "cartoonish" rpgs should not detract from the fact that plenty of other games feature mature stories and gameplay. Lost Odyssey and Demon's Souls are prime examples of JRPGs that comform to what would be considered "mature" by the WRPG gamer.

Before we start declaring the death of any contributor to the game industry based on a perception, it would be advisable to check on facts.

I think "mature" was the wrong word choice. I do agree with you completely. Good post.

I think what I tried to point to was that Western RPGs have started creating characters more resembling reality...if that's the right way to explain it. What I wanted to allude to the fact that JRPGs are stuck on the "spiky hair" era. Lost Odyssey and Demon Souls were two great games indeed and definetelly more "mature".

I guess, I was referring to any Final Fantasy past 10 and many other games, where every character looks like Tidus, wearing glyph looking clothing and has a giggly girl sidekick....with very little personality other than the fact that he looks JRPG....

Earlier JRPGs did not suffer as much from these design decisions. There were quirky characters in every game but they were usually fringe or optional characters. Now these characters make up the main story arc

But I wasn't trying to proclaim the death of the JRPG. I was wrong to say that. I am sorry for that, you have proved me wrong.

[Frozenflamekid]

SleeplessInSigil wrote...

As to JRPG vs. WRPG:
I've picked up Fallout 3 after finishing Dragon Age: Origins and frankly, the former has been a much more ..wow.. experience, despite the fact that it came out earlier and both had spent around the same amount of time in development.


Most DA fans here have gone aghast upon reading comparisons like that, but here's the funny thing: the reasons you may dislike FO3 for, when comparing to DA are the exact same factors which'd make Final Fantasy XIII superior to DA.

Yes:

• FF13 In-game Intro
• FF13 TGS 2009 English Trailer
• FF13 Spoiler-free Review

but nevermind all that, how many JRPGs has Tyrion-Imp played anyway?

[*]I have played JRPGs since Final Fantasy III came out in the UNited States. So I have played a lot of them. I also own almost every soundtrack from any JRPG that came out here. Therefore, it pains me when I see the decline of the JRPG, especially when it comes to storytelling.
[*]I am sick of these generic "boy saves the world" storylines. For example, look at Final Fantasy IX. It starts on an airship, then it switches to another character trying to enter the castle to get a peek at a play, switches to another character, you go into castle to kidnap priness, you take part in a play on stage, you run away, land in a petrified forest...etc etc. There is no City ---> Dungeon--->City progression (or if there is, its very cleverly covered up). Same with Final Fantasy VII. You go from location to location, and each one is different and unexpected. With these new JRPGs...you ALWAYS start at a city or a town....then some evil happens...you to to dungeon...go back to city....go to new dungeon...etc. Very quickly gets boring and repetitive. Environments are generic (look at Final Fantasy XII, desert setting, forest setting, beach setting, mountain setting, castle setting) end of game. No memorable setting whatsoever.

[AsheraII]

Okay, both ME and DA:O could do with some more music, I agree there. But JRPG music? 
No thanks, quality over quantity please.

[Frozenflamekid]

Magic Zarim wrote...

That's what I've been sorely missing in DA:O. While the music quality in itself is alright, it's how the music is used that makes DA much less of what it could have been. Like few here described, JPRGs use music to tell the story in an artistic manner. Relative short sound tracks that set the tone and mood for cutscenes and other (major) events during gameplay. Blending of said tracks depending on how the player moves from area to area, from event to event.

It's not necessarily JRPG music though. It's music produced by Japanese overall which is rather remarkable. I remember and have so many songs, originals and remixes from many Konami and other classics, from RPGs to action games. All these songs bear a strong theme, they are crafted in such way they can loop endlessly (making blending so smooth), the tones are very descriptive of mood and those games have so much variance soundscape wise. You'll never be listening to the same piece for extended periods of time.

DA:O's music technically is good. It just doesn't support the game and story line - environements, scripts, events (endboss Archdemon!) at all. So yes I agree, WRPG, notably DA:O is weak in using music and sound to enrich the story, events, ambience and mood.

Cutscenes of importance *should* have their own sound track that 'tells' the atmosphere in the cutscene (tension, joy, disappointment, anger etc), that supports what's happening (music building towards a climax as something gets revealed in a cutscene) alas.. at least The Witcher does this a whole lot better which indeed has memorable sound tracks, some of which I replay on my Yamaha PSR9000.

Ah! I agree completely with your post. Very well said. And thank you for mentioning The Witcher, because it more closely resembles Dragon Age than some of the other games mentioned. Music in The Witcher was VERY well done. Each cutscene (within the main story arc) has a very distinctive theme that adds to the story and the mood of the events.

[Frozenflamekid]

HighlandBerserkr wrote...

That is a great one. Please tell me why this track could not be thrown into Dragon Age...for example after Ostagar...or inside the Tower of Magi.....

That would have been amazing

[Challseus]

Probably one of the most emotional scenes I have ever watched in a game, which wouldn't have been the same without music deity Nobuo Uematsu's music.

Lost Odyssey

I can only dream when we'll get this in WRPG's...

EDIT - I've never teared up in a game before, until I saw this...

Modifié par Challseus, 06 février 2010 - 05:30 .

[RetrOldSchool]

spernus wrote...
The only big jrpg left in the west is Final fantasy. FF XIII should sell well in the west,but it probably won't outsell Oblivion or Fallout 3.It should outsell both Dragon age and Mass effect 2.Then again,let's admit that Bioware game aren't the most popular around.

Actually, ME2 outsold Oblivion when comparing the 1st week and I think it even outsold Fallout 3's first week.

ME2 shipped 2 million copies, which for an RPG is incredible!
http://www.1up.com/d...ory?cId=3177757

And  if you take the first 5 or 6 weeks of sales of DA:O and Oblivion (both counting both PS3 and 360 sales) then DA:O sold better than Oblivion too, though not as successfull as Fallout3. I'm not sure how it is right now, but I think DA:O sold better than Oblivion (when comparing the Oblivion sales over the first 3 months)

But you're right about FF being the only JRPG that really sells well outside Japan.

[RetrOldSchool]

Challseus wrote...
Probably one of the most emotional scenes I have ever watched in a game, which wouldn't have been the same without music deity Nobuo Uematsu's music.

Lost Odyssey

I can only dream when we'll get this in WRPG's...
EDIT - I've never teared up in a game before, until I saw this...

Yeah that scene and music is incredible! I didn't even like Lost Odyssey that much (I'd probably score it a 3 of 5) but that scene is just amazing.

[AlanC9]

One thing I don't think I've seen mentioned is that the music might have been made somewhat generic on purpose. Among other things, DA is a toolset game -- can you write music that enhances specific scenes and can be easily repurposed?

[Aratham Darksight]

AlanC9 wrote...

One thing I don't think I've seen mentioned is that the music might have been made somewhat generic on purpose. Among other things, DA is a toolset game -- can you write music that enhances specific scenes and can be easily repurposed?

I don't think the toolset was meant to be as important an aspect of the game that Bioware would design the soundtrack around it.

However, I do think the sound track might be purposefully "generic" because there is so much less of it than there is gameplay time. The less music you have for a long, bigger game, the more the tracks will re-occur. The more they appear in different places, the less specific they can be to one.

[MOTpoetryION]

music rocks

[SleeplessInSigil]

Tyrion-Imp wrote...

I have played JRPGs since Final Fantasy III came out in the UNited States. So I have played a lot of them. ... Therefore, it pains me when I see the decline of the JRPG, especially when it comes to storytelling.

You do realize that way more than half of the games made in Japan never make it to the US, and even then they're sure to lose something in the translation and other editings in order to suit the American market.

You'd also know that the dominant form of storytelling in games over there is the "visual novel" genre, which's basically one heck of a long dialog-tree that you just read and click through for the entire game, and those sometimes form the core of an entire franchise.

Final Fantasy is nowhere near representing the entirety of the JRPG market, not even the majority of it, although Dungeons & Dragons does come very close to dominating the WRPG scene, through direct licenses or "inspiring" games like Dragon Age.

Anyway, I've personally never finished a single FF game, nor have I ever cared very much to (until FF13,) but some of my favorite JRPGs have been unofficial "fan-translations" that never got released in the US without getting mangled (Seiken Densetsu 3, Rudra no Hihou, Star Ocean, Live-A-Live and others)

Tyrion-Imp wrote...

I am sick of these generic "boy saves the world" storylines.

I'm sure Dragon Age and Mass Effect are a lot different, right? because,

Tyrion-Imp wrote...

With these new JRPGs...you ALWAYS start at a city or a town....then some evil happens...you to to dungeon...go back to city....go to new dungeon...etc. Very quickly gets boring and repetitive. Environments are generic (look at Final Fantasy XII, desert setting, forest setting, beach setting, mountain setting, castle setting) end of game.

Origin -> [Ostagar -> Wilds -> Lothering] -> [Brecilian/Orzammar/Redcliffe/Tower] -> Denerim.

Castles. Ruins. Forest. Village. Dungeons. Mountain. Caves. Enough said.

Tyrion-Imp wrote...

No memorable setting whatsoever.

Well, FF13 looks to change that. Check out the spoiler-free reviews and the intro cinematic I posted back there. Promises to be a pretty memorable setting, but we'll see for ourselves in a month. (damn the lack of a PC version!)

AsheraII wrote...

Okay, both ME and DA:O could do with some more music, I agree there. But JRPG music? 
No thanks, quality over quantity please.

There is a reason why people are inspired to release hundreds of remixes for JRPG soundtracks every year, but next to none for WRPGs. Listen to this violin playalong and this Trance cover of the FF13 Battle Theme, then let's talk about quality. ★

Oh, and originality as well. 

Modifié par SleeplessInSigil, 07 février 2010 - 12:10 .

[Randomname1212]

Music is very important in games in my opinion. It makes the game a lot more immersive and epic. Though some Western games have some pretty awesome music, like Halo and WoW (though I know these aren't classified as RPG's). Though, I think music should be considered heavily in games, especially RPG's. Though not that I have anything against the music of DA:O, I find their music really awesome (especially Leleina's song and the main menu song). The music from the Warcraft games are my favourite, followed by Halo then probably DA:O. I  also loved the music from Neverwinter Nights main screen.

Modifié par Randomname1212, 07 février 2010 - 12:12 .