103 réponses à ce sujet

[SleeplessInSigil]

BTW, on the WRPG side, Mark Morgan did an awesome job on the Planescape: Torment soundtrack. The music is a huge part of the macabre mystique of that game. <3

[Tlonuqbar]

There are some massive oversimplifications going on here.

A few implications that seem to be going around:

1) "Western developers have the option of picking 'awesome music' but they are somehow opting for 'mediocre music' to save development costs." Developers hire a composer based on existing work and then the composer composes new music for the game; even if the composer has composed rather impressive stuff up to this point, it doesn't necessarily mean that his new music will be as good or even fit the game well. Conversely, previously underwhelming composers can hit a period of inspiration and start writing some excellent stuff. Game developers simply lack the psychic powers necessary to predict this.

2) "Fewer tracks = worse soundtrack in all situations." Sometimes fewer tracks is a problem, and sometimes fewer tracks is perfectly acceptable, based on the nature of the music, the overall game experience itself, and how the music works within that experience (once again, not something that the developers can plan for in advance).

3) "Music styles that work well for one game will work for another." I would hate to see a Noriyuki Iwadare score switched for a Hitoshi Sakimoto one (for that matter, Sakimoto is one of the few Japanese game composers who can write music that could work as well in a Western RPG as well as a Japanese one, and even then, it depends on the nature of the game in which the music would be used.)

4) "All RPGs, whether Japanese or Western, require a long, epic musical score." This is simply too general a statement to be true. Some games are somewhat impaired without such a score, while in others it is not a necessity.

That being said, as a collector of game soundtracks (mainly Japanese, but that's partially because there really are just that much more of them available to purchase), I certainly wouldn't MIND if every Western RPG had an amazing score. However, just because it would be 'nice' doesn't make it necessary, or even a real negative mark against Western RPGs. An analogy: Compared to the prequels, the fight choreography in the original Star Wars films is somewhat understated, but using that as a negative against the original films is rather ludicrous, especially in light of the overall quality of the prequels, regardless of their 'better' fight scenes.

Modifié par Tlonuqbar, 07 février 2010 - 01:03 .

[Mlai00]

That being said, as a collector of game soundtracks (mainly Japanese, but that's partially because there really are just that much more of them available to purchase), I certainly wouldn't MIND if every Western RPG had an amazing score. However, just because it would be 'nice' doesn't make it necessary,

You certainly wrote a lot, but that one bolded statement basically tells everyone how you really feel.

Modifié par Mlai00, 07 février 2010 - 02:18 .

[What a Twist]

Marbazoid wrote...

"So it looks like Japanese RPGs have died at the hands of Western developers that can churn out a much better and more mature experience"

JRPG's enjoy a niche in the western market, and will never be more or less than that due to the cultural barrier, same can be said about the western rpg in Japan.

Ever seen how popular WoW is in china.

Yeah...

[SleeplessInSigil]

What a Twist wrote...

Ever seen how popular WoW is in china.

Yeah...

uhhh and China has got exactly what to do with the Japanese market?

[What a Twist]

SleeplessInSigil wrote...

What a Twist wrote...

Ever seen how popular WoW is in china.

Yeah...

uhhh and China has got exactly what to do with the Japanese market?

He said cultural barriers, so I would consider asia to be a culture, same with europe and america. They're not exactly the same, but those are the general zones. If its a game made in japan, its being sold in china. Europe and the US however are becoming one in the same it seems.

[SleeplessInSigil]

What a Twist wrote...

He said cultural barriers, so I would consider asia to be a culture, same with europe and america. They're not exactly the same, but those are the general zones. If its a game made in japan, its being sold in china. Europe and the US however are becoming one in the same it seems.

Asia is a continent.

It has Afghanistan, India, Russia and many other countries, as well as Japan, in it.


There are more differences between the Chinese and Japanese markets than between the US and Mexico. 

Modifié par SleeplessInSigil, 07 février 2010 - 05:43 .

[tallon1982]

Just have a game developer splurge and hire John Williams...Kidding!

[Challseus]

tallon1982 wrote...

Just have a game developer splurge and hire John Williams...Kidding!

Hmm, you may be kidding, but I would love to see a high profile movie composer do a full soundtrack on a game. Hans Zimmer, I'm looking at you!

[soteria]

I'll just chime in and say that although I'm much more attached to the FF soundtracks, part of that is that they remix and re-use some of their theme songs--like the battle theme, and the victory theme. With music, sometimes repetition can build memories and associations that make it more powerful than the actual quality.



I do prefer the FFVII and FFX soundtracks to anything I've heard in a WRPG, but I think they're just more memorable, and are used differently.



Also, I have to say I loved some of the FF stories-- III, VII, and X in particular. X had a much more emotionally moving story than, say, BG, for me.

[mdeeRocks]

c.

However, the only thing that Western developers still can't grasp is how important MUSIC is in video games. Japanese developers are much much better at creating music to complement their storytelling.

Yeah, bring on Leon Levis or whatever her name is and latest X-Factor winner and if we are at it, please bring on metrosexual (ehm..) looking male characters, Alistar should wear a dress and ride a chicken. I also really miss these karate shouts and farts they make everytime they fight.



ps. I forgot to add that all the characters should definitely be renamed to somethink like Snow, Rain, Hope, Fang, Cheese, Vanilla, Egg, Bean, Mud and, of course Puke.

Modifié par mdeeRocks, 07 février 2010 - 09:03 .

[SleeplessInSigil]

Although not quite RPGs, no discussion of music in Western games should be complete without a mention of the old Sierra -Quest series (King's, Space, Glory etc.) and Gabriel Knight, with excellent scores by Mark Seibert, Robert Holmes, Chris Brayman and others.
<3
Oh and the Monkey Island series and other LucasArts adventure games! Come on people, make em make more of those!

[Aratham Darksight]

mdeeRocks wrote...

Yeah, bring on Leon Levis or whatever her name is and latest X-Factor winner and if we are at it, please bring on metrosexual (ehm..) looking male characters, Alistar should wear a dress and ride a chicken. I also really miss these karate shouts and farts they make everytime they fight.



ps. I forgot to add that all the characters should definitely be renamed to somethink like Snow, Rain, Hope, Fang, Cheese, Vanilla, Egg, Bean, Mud and, of course Puke.

Maybe you could explain what any of that has to do with the importance of music in games.

[SleeplessInSigil]

mdeeRocks wrote...

Yeah, bring on Leon Levis or whatever her name is and latest X-Factor winner and if we are at it, please bring on metrosexual (ehm..) looking male characters, Alistar should wear a dress and ride a chicken. I also really miss these karate shouts and farts they make everytime they fight.

Whoa easy there cowboy, Alistair might as well be wearing a dress (all those mages certainly do, or were those straitjackets.. -_-a) because your preferance seems to be male characters that ACT effeminate instead of looking so, or is it all the pointy-eared bisexual treehuggers and the chance to play Snow White with a bunch of bearded midgets living in caves?

 Yeah. Sort those cliches out which are prevalent in almost EVERY WRPG first, and then complain about the brand-icons of just ONE JRPG series.



Anyway, this thread should be in the Off-Topic section, not really specific to Dragon Age to begin with and veering off course even more

Modifié par SleeplessInSigil, 07 février 2010 - 11:41 .

[Solica]

Bio-Boy 3000 wrote...

I am going to have to agree that most of the sound track that Inon Zur did for Dragon Age is rather forgettable, save a few. I don't even have the music on anymore and play my preferred genre when I fire up Dragon Age. I was actually hoping that Jack Wall would have been the composer for the sound track. His work on Jade Empire is one of my favorites for setting the mood to the game.

It's not about the composer. Inon Zur is awesome. Nobody seem to have mentioned it yet in this thread, but the soundtracks of Icewind Dale and Icewind Dale 2 are as good as it ever gets. IMO Icewind Dale 2 has the best soundtrack ever, of all games, and it's Inon Zur's. (He also did BG II, Throne of Bhaal, btw)

The question seem rather to be what the developers have decided about the role of music in this game, and maybe about how much they budgeted for it. What I'm saying is that music is downplayed in DA:O. The few and rather static *functional* tracks we get in the background during combat, etc, is probably exactly what Bioware asked for and thought they wanted. Don't want the music to dominate the game, etc.
(My memory is rather dim, so I might be wrong, but I think I remember that this concept of downplayed music had a lot of support from the usual clueless crowd, who shout the loudest and tend to dominate forums, when the question was discussed on the early Dragon Age forums.)

Personally, I'd rather see that the developers had looked at how the Icewind Dale games used music.

Modifié par Solica, 07 février 2010 - 12:08 .

[Marbazoid]

What a Twist wrote...

SleeplessInSigil wrote...

What a Twist wrote...

Ever seen how popular WoW is in china.

Yeah...

uhhh and China has got exactly what to do with the Japanese market?

He said cultural barriers, so I would consider asia to be a culture, same with europe and america. They're not exactly the same, but those are the general zones. If its a game made in japan, its being sold in china. Europe and the US however are becoming one in the same it seems.

You make a fair point, the mmo market is dominated by a western mmo in most of the international market.
Cultural barriers aren't a roadblock for all games it would seem, though WoW China is significantly altered to appeal to that audience.

(Not sure if the altered WoW is for all Asian markets or just China).

Modifié par Marbazoid, 07 février 2010 - 12:33 .

[Sylixe]

Really?  Weird since i pretty much always go right to the interface after installing a game and turn the music off.  Developers need to spend more time on gameplay mechanics and less time churning out a hollywood production games with grammy winning soundtracks.

[Ferelden Templar]

Marbazoid wrote...

You make a fair point, the mmo market is dominated by a western mmo in most of the international market.
Cultural barriers aren't a roadblock for all games it would seem, though WoW China is significantly altered to appeal to that audience.

(Not sure if the altered WoW is for all Asian markets or just China).

Most MMOs are localized in each individual Asian Country for the Asian market - most of the MMOs here are of Korean origin. WoW would be a big hit in the Philippines - but my contacts in the local game industry think that the license fee is too high to invest in it. Still, me and a lot of other Filipino players play in WoW despite the Philippines not having the license.

Price point is generally the problem for non-Korean and non-Japanese markets really. Hardcore gamers like myself aren't a problem - I'll play pretty much anything that has Bioware stapled on it... and so do a lot of Filipino gamers. Hell, most of my Xbox live female friends have Dragon Age gear on their avatars.

It really is the middle-ground gamers where Western game developers have a problem reaching to Asia. People here don't want to invest the money in a 360 or PS3. Most are satisfied with a PS2 and playing golden oldies like Suikoden. Same goes for investing in an upgraded PC.

As late as last year I found out that Korean MMOG Ragnarok Online still has a big following in Japan. My general feeling is that Japanese games in general have stagnated across the board. These days, I can't pick up a random Japanese game and enjoy it - atmosphere and all. As opposed to Modern Warfare, Arkham Asylum and other Western games. I couldn't play past the first disc of Star Ocean. ;

As for music, well I've been a fan of Japanese Soundtracks since Akira. But recently? I haven't heard any of note. Most J-music has become generic for me. Nowadays, I'm starting to appreciate DAO and the ME soundtracks.

[Randomname1212]

If we were speaking of soundtracks in general (including movies) then Lord of the Rings pretty much takes the cake (or whatever the analogy is) for me. However, I don't think that all western RPG's are lacking in music. Though one of the most important thing about music in RPG's is that it isn't some sort of modernist rock and roll/punk/techno/whatever, If it is a fantasy RPG it should have epic music.

[Tlonuqbar]

Mlai00 wrote...

That being said, as a collector of game soundtracks (mainly Japanese, but that's partially because there really are just that much more of them available to purchase), I certainly wouldn't MIND if every Western RPG had an amazing score. However, just because it would be 'nice' doesn't make it necessary,

You certainly wrote a lot, but that one bolded statement basically tells everyone how you really feel.

Ah, the circumstantial ad hominem:

[*]Person A makes claim X.
[*]Person B asserts that A makes claim X because it is in A's interest to claim X.
[*]Therefore claim X is false.

This is a logical fallacy; a statement is true or false based only on the statement itself, and the opinion, beliefs, or (in this case) hobbies of the person making the statement are irrelevant.


Incidentally, if you had bolded just a little further, you would have seen that the only reason that I own more Japanese soundtracks is that there are just that many more of them available to own.  And also, owning 100 CDs of one genre of music doesn't necessarily mean that I like a genre of music for which I have only 20 CDs any less.  This leans towards the fallacy of the excluded middle, which would be "You must either prefer JRPG soundtracks to Western ones, or Western RPG soundtracks to Japanese ones.  You cannot like them equally."

[Tlonuqbar]

Randomname1212 wrote...

If we were speaking of soundtracks in general (including movies) then Lord of the Rings pretty much takes the cake (or whatever the analogy is) for me. However, I don't think that all western RPG's are lacking in music. Though one of the most important thing about music in RPG's is that it isn't some sort of modernist rock and roll/punk/techno/whatever, If it is a fantasy RPG it should have epic music.

Admittedly, I prefer 'epic' music in fantasy settings myself, but I don't think it is a requirement.  So-called 'epic' music is rooted in the late 19th Century symphonic tradition and in the stylings of movie soundtracks that grew out of that tradition.  Folks like John Williams, Howard Shore, Danny Elfman and the like write music that is directly evolved from the dramatic music of Richard Wagner, just like their film soundtrack forefathers such as Erich Korngold, Max Steiner, Bernard Herrmann, and even classical masters like Prokofiev and Shostakovich (who wrote amazing film scores in addition to their concert hall compositions, although one could argue that the Russian film music owes much less to the Germanic tradition than most film scores).

My point is that there is no logical basis for stating that the musical values of the late 19th Century are the only viable approach to a fantasy setting, as that fantasy world is A) based in a pseudo-medieval setting (which means that 19th Century orchestras don't exist in that world, just as they couldn't have existed in the middle ages) and regardless of its real world inspirations is NOT part of our world, and therefore can be represented by just about ANY musical form (if 19th Century Symphony Orchestras are not a non sequitur, then pretty much nothing is).

The reason that we prefer that 'epic' orchestral sound is that we have been conditioned to do so all our lives; it is not inherent in the setting or the music.

Modifié par Tlonuqbar, 07 février 2010 - 07:08 .

[Randomname1212]

Just one complaint about DA:O music here, its pretty epic, but only thing though I do complain about is that there is no way to get Leleina's song again. Shame it was a one time thing really.

[Randomname1212]

Tlonuqbar wrote...

Randomname1212 wrote...

If we were speaking of soundtracks in general (including movies) then Lord of the Rings pretty much takes the cake (or whatever the analogy is) for me. However, I don't think that all western RPG's are lacking in music. Though one of the most important thing about music in RPG's is that it isn't some sort of modernist rock and roll/punk/techno/whatever, If it is a fantasy RPG it should have epic music.

Admittedly, I prefer 'epic' music in fantasy settings myself, but I don't think it is a requirement.  So-called 'epic' music is rooted in the late 19th Century symphonic tradition and in the stylings of movie soundtracks that grew out of that tradition.  Folks like John Williams, Howard Shore, Danny Elfman and the like write music that is directly evolved from the dramatic music of Richard Wagner, just like their film soundtrack forefathers such as Erich Korngold, Max Steiner, Bernard Herrmann, and even classical masters like Prokofiev and Shostakovich (who wrote amazing film scores in addition to their concert hall compositions, although one could argue that the Russian film music owes much less to the Germanic tradition than most film scores).

My point is that there is no logical basis for stating that the musical values of the late 19th Century are the only viable approach to a fantasy setting, as that fantasy world is A) based in a pseudo-medieval setting (which means that 19th Century orchestras don't exist in that world, just as they couldn't have existed in the middle ages) and regardless of its real world inspirations is NOT part of our world, and therefore can be represented by just about ANY musical form (if 19th Century Symphony Orchestras are not a non sequitur, then pretty much nothing is).

The reason that we prefer that 'epic' orchestral sound is that we have been conditioned to do so all our lives; it is not inherent in the setting or the music.

Well alright, no "epic" music does not have to be a "requirement" I  just feel that it suits RPG's a lot better and that it would be good to have games that have this kind of music. Though it is just my opinion of course. Yeah I  sort of agree with you that such music is just as realistic to the setting as any other kind of music.

[gropax]

well i will not play a JRPG again til i get the ability from square enix to turn off damn music or atleast turn it down 90% of the time its set to 11 when i really want it set at like 5 or 6 and you can't hear the characters in the game talking. and i am talking about FFX FFX-2 and FFXII. and most of the time i have the music turned off for fallout 3 and Oblivion. other then the pip boys radio in fallout 3 its not like a band follows you into battle play a theme song while you slay a dragon.

[SleeplessInSigil]

gropax wrote...

well i will not play a JRPG again til i get the ability from square enix

Most Rimnars are Jornars.
Most Jornars are Dimnars.
Therefore, most Rimnars are Dimnars.