20813 réponses à ce sujet

[gneissguy2003]

BobbyTheI wrote...

Cast my vote too, and can I just say that I'm even more terrified of the Tali thread now that I know the vast, vast majority of people posting on it are dudes?  I guess Tali fanboys are the male equivalent of Team Edward.  

Now all we need is a photoshop of Tali and Shepard's heads onto Twilight characters. Hmm...... maybe that's a bit too far.

[Jackal904]

Ultai wrote...

Happy 100th everyone. We started out slow and small but slowly and gradually pick up steam and cruise along at a steady pace

Thanks to one very special troll. Early on I think between 20 and 30 pages, this troll started posting in here, provoking all these arguements, and that gave the boost this thread needed. That was a pretty funny time though with Bobby's black boxes . Eventually I got Stanley Woo to kick is ass out. Good times .

InStereoWhereAvailable wrote...

Sorry in advance for a stupid question, but could anyone direct me toward the Jack support sigs all you guys have? I would like one very much, please . I went back about 60 pages, and I just gave up. (I'm lazy, sue me)

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/105/index/984999/14      You gotta scroll down a bit

Modifié par Jackal904, 23 mars 2010 - 12:26 .

[Booglarize]

Just voted myself. And it looks like we've edged past Ashley. At this rate, she'll soon be nothing but a speck on the Horizon, so to speak.

Modifié par Booglarize, 23 mars 2010 - 12:31 .

[InStereoWhereAvailable]

Thank You, Jackal904!
Okay, wait, I suck at this...

Modifié par InStereoWhereAvailable, 23 mars 2010 - 12:30 .

[gneissguy2003]

InStereoWhereAvailable wrote...

Thank You, Jackal904!
Okay, wait, I suck at this...

Get rid of the periods in your brackets.


Edit: There ya go! 

Modifié par gneissguy2003, 23 mars 2010 - 12:33 .

[InStereoWhereAvailable]

gneissguy2003 wrote...

InStereoWhereAvailable wrote...

Thank You, Jackal904!
Okay, wait, I suck at this...

Get rid of the periods in your brackets.

Okay, I got it now! Thank You for helping me despite my Fail!

[Dominus5412]

Thanks for the link, Jackal!

[Mondo47]

Ok, I think it's time for me to have another little rant about Jack - one all brought on by the poll we're mulling over at the moment. I'm frankly unsurprised that Jack is proving (for now at least) most popular with girl-gamers. I don't want to get into tarring-and-feathering other characters in the game, but when compared to Miranda, Tali and to a lesser degree Kelly, Jack is a good all-round female character; she covers almost every base (speaking from a feminine perspective).

Don't get me wrong; all the female characters represent their sex in their own ways. Miranda, while quite flawlessly beautiful, sees only her flaws; she has a sincerity in her self-doubt that I think all women will have known at one point or another. She is also driven; she strives to be the best at what she does, though takes her failures to heart, turning them into an emotional ball-and-chain. Miranda's biggest flaw though (insofar as the presentation of the character) is that her romance is too lightweight and easy-breezy. It's as though she forgets her own doubts and trust issues as soon as she enters the orange, Rick-James-esque aura of Shepard. For her to have retained some of her fear of failure in something like a relationship would given her another dimension, as she would pull Shepard in then push him away out of doubt, resulting in a will-they-won't-they situation that just works whenever it's presented in contemporary media (face it, it's the only reason The X Files went on as long as it ever did).

Tali is I think made in a way that will appeal most to male gamers. While a girl will see her as spunky, smart, funny and capable, Tali has a slightly waifish quality (one alluded to with her weak immune system and one depicted visually in that she seems the one character unafraid of her emotions - she displays her feelings around Shepard without pretence or desire to hide from him a potential exploitable weakness). She implicitly trusts Shepard with her heart, and while never being a damsel in distress, she seems to seek Shepard to help her stand up to fears and sorrows. As a Male-Shep, we only encourage Miranda to open herself up to trust, we badger Jack into surrendering to her cloistered feelings, but Tali, we just comfort. It's like autopilot hugging her when her dead father is discovered - the game tries to steer us into it, damnit! The game wants us to love Tali, though I think loving her as a sister is more approachable for the female audience than finding a flutter of romantic interest. For men... well, some guys like being the White Knight, others just like the other facets of her personality, but I don't think I'm too far wrong when a I surmise that a lot of guys liked her because she made them feel needed.

Kelly is... fanservice. Ok, that is a completely mean and judgemental thing to say, but considering her much-vaunted psychological advice is pithy at best, and other than that all she seems to do is tell you about messages, the romance seems tacked-on. There's nothing to fall for other than the fact she'll feed the damn fish for you and hand out the lapdances. There's nothing there to develop a romantic interest in! Guys will like the dancing (and no doubt some of the girls will too) but other than that Kelly brings no emotion to the table. She only seems vulnerable in the Collector base, and other than that she expresses little in the way of other emotions. It's no real surprise then that she doesn't even count as a romance, but I felt I should include her all the same.

Then we come to Jack... to me at least, Jack really does express the gamut of female emotional expression. To begin with, we're slightly held at bay by her attitude; she's so tough she doesn't need anyone, and **** you if you think otherwise. She doesn't want a lover, she doesn't want a friend, she's fearsomely independant; something many women want to be or are. It's aspirational in a somewhat twisted way. Then we find out about Jack the woman. Her past just makes you want to hug her; she's suffered some of the most awful things imaginable, yet she keeps up this wall of dispassionate aggression to hold Shepard(s) at bay, but we get an inkling that inside the strong woman is a weaker one - one we can identify with more. This kind of duality in a character is a great point of identification for a female gamer... women have to be both things sometimes, and it's a condition we can relate to.

Jack uses sex as tool; not as a weapon per-se, but almost like a test. She uses the most obvious thing at her disposal to test the water with this man (or this woman, as Bobby discovered once upon a time), and if he fails the test she cuts him off. Bam - no nonsense. Also the old equation of sex and love is thrown into a fully 20th century, post-feminism light - women no longer have to equate romance to intercourse anymore, even if society continues to try and feed it back in drip by drip. Jack is in that sense a free, modern woman in her actions; something equally aspirational (though perhaps in her case not in a fashion women should rush out to emulate willy-nilly).

The last layer comes off Jack when we find out why she doesn't want some dumb**** love affair. Her heart has been broken. Combine that with a past that seems to include sexual violence and simply being used to a degree you could almost call it emotional prostitution, Jack turns inside-out. Too red-raw to hold. And women feel that way sometimes; too sensitive to life whirling around them. Ok, don't get me wrong here guys, I know for a fact men can feel this way too, but I'm only looking at feminine identification here. Unlike Tali's need for a White Knight, Jack has spent her life saving herself. For someone to save her... well, trusting someone to do it is one huge leap of faith for her - a woman who has very little faith in anyone. And also for someone to want to save her for no good reason than Jack being Jack... what woman in a vulnerable moment will not want the exact same thing? Shepard holds her and the pain comes flooding out. Not all of it, but enough to take some of the pressure off the tank. Women are tough by nature, seriously ****ing tough, but not beyond breaking under the strain.

While I think the three female principles in ME2 are very nicely delineated for the audience, I think Jack offers the broadest spectrum of female emotional experience to the girl-gamer. While some may have more closeness to Miranda or Tali because they identify with the characters more, I think Jack has found a place with many female gamers simply because out of all of them, Jack is the one a 21st centurywoman can, in relation to the emotional aspects of femininity, find inside herself the most.

And I didn't even once resort to saying men are much more visually oriented than women!

[adriano_c]

I think it's safe to say there's more "on topic" content in that single post than the current iteration of the entire 'Tali thread'?

-edit. Now to actually read it, rather than the cursory glance I gave...lol

Modifié par adriano_c, 23 mars 2010 - 12:51 .

[Ilzairspar]

InStereoWhereAvailable wrote...

gneissguy2003 wrote...

InStereoWhereAvailable wrote...

Thank You, Jackal904!
Okay, wait, I suck at this...

Get rid of the periods in your brackets.

Okay, I got it now! Thank You for helping me despite my Fail!

I got a better Fail for you guys.

How do I put in a signature?  i can't figure out where to go on my profile page.

I feel silly. 

[DarthCaine]

Ilzairspar wrote...

I got a better Fail for you guys.

How do I put in a signature?  i can't figure out where to go on my profile page.

I feel silly. 

http://social.biowar.../forum/settings

(it's Profile->Forum Settings)

Modifié par DarthCaine, 23 mars 2010 - 12:55 .

[Ilzairspar]

DarthCaine wrote...

Ilzairspar wrote...

I got a better Fail for you guys.

How do I put in a signature?  i can't figure out where to go on my profile page.

I feel silly. 

http://social.biowar.../forum/settings

(it's Profile->Forum Settings)

Thanks.    

Out of all the things I clicked I can't figure out why I didn't see it.

EDIT:  By the way Mondo, awesome post.  exceptionally insightful

Modifié par Ilzairspar, 23 mars 2010 - 01:06 .

[Jackal904]

@Mondo

Damn I can't believe I read all that . I think you are very correct though. Female's are also probably drawn to Jack more since they don't have very good options for romanceable males. And Jack appeases to their maternal sense. They see this broken young girl and they want to help put her back together. It's too bad female Shepard can't form a non-romantic relationship with Jack that would still allow her to break down Jack's barriers and get her to open up.

[Booglarize]

Mondo47

I think you're quite right about the range of emotions for Jack being the broadest out of the bunch. I haven't noticed anything like this in a video game character since Viconia from BGII (probably the seventeenth time that I've made this comparison, but hey).

What makes Jack all the more impressive for me, though, is the fact that they managed to somehow fit all this complexity into what was ultimately a fairly short game. I think it's because there was very little throwaway stuff with Jack, just about everything she had to say was meaningful in some way or the other.

Modifié par Booglarize, 23 mars 2010 - 01:37 .

[Gethforceone]

DarthCaine wrote...

Ilzairspar wrote...

I got a better Fail for you guys.

How do I put in a signature?  i can't figure out where to go on my profile page.

I feel silly. 

http://social.biowar.../forum/settings

(it's Profile->Forum Settings)

Ok wait I do not understand how to put a banner in the my sig, do I type in the link or what?

[Flamewielder]

With all the interest surrounding LI polls for both male/female players, I figured I'd do the same for Shepard's closest friends. Being limited to 20 options, I had to make choices. I settled for player gender/closest friend of your Shepard.

I know a lot of players will say "My Shep's best friend IS his/her LI..." but that's not the purpose of this poll. We want to know which characters are most appealing as best friends to Shepard.

Who's gonna play card or share a drink with him/her? Who's gonna tease him/her for daring to drink rynchol in the Dark Star and passing out on the washroom floor? Who's gonna be the one taking the bullet for him/her so he can return to the Normandy and shag his/her LI silly?

Comments are most welcome. Poll can be found at http://social.biowar...664/polls/3602/

[achegal]

Gethforceone wrote...

DarthCaine wrote...

Ilzairspar wrote...

I got a better Fail for you guys.

How do I put in a signature?  i can't figure out where to go on my profile page.

I feel silly. 

http://social.biowar.../forum/settings

(it's Profile->Forum Settings)

Ok wait I do not understand how to put a banner in the my sig, do I type in the link or what?

Put [ img] before the url and [ /img] behind it. Just without the spaces between ^^.

Modifié par achegal, 23 mars 2010 - 02:23 .

[Ultai]

Gethforceone wrote...

DarthCaine wrote...

Ilzairspar wrote...

I got a better Fail for you guys.

How do I put in a signature?  i can't figure out where to go on my profile page.

I feel silly. 

http://social.biowar.../forum/settings

(it's Profile->Forum Settings)

Ok wait I do not understand how to put a banner in the my sig, do I type in the link or what?

Bah, post are fubar'd, achegal has the right idea though

Modifié par Ultai, 23 mars 2010 - 02:28 .

[InStereoWhereAvailable]

achegal wrote...

Gethforceone wrote...

DarthCaine wrote...

Ilzairspar wrote...

I got a better Fail for you guys.

How do I put in a signature?  i can't figure out where to go on my profile page.

I feel silly. 

http://social.biowar.../forum/settings

(it's Profile->Forum Settings)

Ok wait I do not understand how to put a banner in the my sig, do I type in the link or what?

It has to look like that: [ img ] www.jackisawsome [ /img ] just without the spaces between. 

I AM awesome enough! I am too... 

Modifié par InStereoWhereAvailable, 23 mars 2010 - 02:23 .

[Gethforceone]

Thanks guys.

[InStereoWhereAvailable]

http://social.biowar...362/polls/3585/


Seems Jack is more popular with the men than previously indicated. Currently at 30 votes, which is 9%. Female vote for Jack is 17 votes, 5%.

Just throwin' that out there...

I'm just not going to talk anymore...

Modifié par InStereoWhereAvailable, 23 mars 2010 - 03:39 .

[royceclemens]

Mondo47 wrote...

Ok, I think it's time for me to have another little rant about Jack...

::Expert analysis follows::

Sterling.  Absolutely sterling.  I've noticed that we here at Into The Bad Girl take a very externalized view of Jack.  While everyone else talks about how pretty or physically endowed their chosen LI is, we talk about tattoo texture.  We talk about dialogue quality.  We talk about the voice actress.  We've even talked about the lighting.  But it's nice to know that in our discussions, we haven't lost sight of the baseline emotional attachment to this character that BioWare has allowed us to have.

The way this male gamer sees it, a great love story involves one or both parties being, well, better than they were before.  Any idiot can fall in love, but only the great can reach into themselves and be the hero they read about when they were kids.  If Rick got on the plane with Ilsa, after all, we'd have been denied a legend.

And with Jack, it's two-fold.  Can we as gamers brook Jack's firewalls?  Look past the ink and foul mouth and defense mechanisms and see the angel?  Can we say no to the girl upstairs who will walk away with us, no questions asked?  Also, can Jack finally defeat the psychic assault  that is every single memory she has?  Cerberus set out to make the ultimate weapon, damn the consequences... And they won.  They did what they set out to do.  And they've kept winning every day since she escaped, as long as she holds into it, letting it corrode her from the inside out.

More than that, though, is that the overriding themes of the entire franchise are distilled into Jack.  Man's uncertain future in an uncaring universe, and Jack is the worst case scenario.  A single human being the victim of every single political oversight, greedy impulse and lust for power that we dared comprehend.  If this can be defeated in the amphitheater of the psyche of one girl, then it gives us hope that it can be defeated on the larger scale. 

Or, y'know... Something like that... Just me talkin', though.

Modifié par royceclemens, 23 mars 2010 - 03:30 .

[Booglarize]

royceclemens wrote...

More than that, though, is that the overriding themes of the entire franchise are distilled into Jack.  Man's uncertain future in an uncaring universe, and Jack is the worst case scenario.  A single human being the victim of every single political oversight, greedy impulse and lust for power that we dared comprehend.  If this can be defeated in the amphitheater of the psyche of one girl, then it gives us hope that it can be defeated on the larger scale. 

You know, this is precisely why I get the sneaking suspicion that the Jack saga won't end happily. It would just be too... perfect. And BioWare seem to have a knack for writing some tragic and/or frustrating conclusions every so often, especially when it comes to the darker and more complex characters. 

[royceclemens]

Don't give out any BG spoilers. I'm getting it in the mail in a couple of weeks.



But alas, you could be right. Girls like Jack don't grow old. I refuse to believe it, but, as I've said, optimism should allow for devil's advocacy. If they do get an idiotic notion in their head to make Jack a moral martyr, I want it out of my hands. I will not choose to kill her. If it results in a game over, then ME3 will be a game I never finish.

[Jackal904]

InStereoWhereAvailable wrote...

http://social.biowar...362/polls/3585/


Seems Jack is more popular with the men than previously indicated. Currently at 30 votes, which is 9%. Female vote for Jack is 17 votes, 5%.

Just throwin' that out there...

I'm just not going to talk anymore...

Hmmm. Jack is doing quite well. Of course Tali has the most votes. But Jack is only behind Miranda by one vote (at least at this moment that I'm typing this out). Nice.

royceclemens wrote...

But alas, you could be right. Girls like Jack don't grow old. I refuse to believe it, but, as I've said, optimism should allow for devil's advocacy. If they do get an idiotic notion in their head to make Jack a moral martyr, I want it out of my hands. I will not choose to kill her. If it results in a game over, then ME3 will be a game I never finish.

Same here. Something that would be interesting in ME3 is if you have to choose between your LI and something else that's very important. Like risking stopping a significant threat to go save your LI. Without a doubt I would go and save Jack everytime.

Modifié par Jackal904, 23 mars 2010 - 04:06 .