20813 réponses à ce sujet

[Mkrgross]

gneissguy2003 wrote...

Weiser_Cain wrote...

Mkrgross wrote...

We have already debated the "stereotype" argument. If you have something new to add you should have led with that. We would be happy to hear you and/or debate with new material. We can be quite civil.

Well not all of you...
I don't think Jack would nessasarily be a metal chick. Most of her action and half her tattoos are her acting out because of the trauma of her youth.
Jack has lived a life of violence so just hearing about imagined violence from someone that never lived it would probably be more annoying than relateable. What I think she really wants is peace.
That's why she's at the bottom of the ship. All the tough girls stuff is armor, you act like you don't care so no one knows that they can or how to hurt you.

See, now if you'd just said that initially instead of the whole "walking stereotype" thing, we'd have never blown up at you.

As to what you say here, I think I actually totally agree with you. I mentioned in an earlier post that I thought maybe she'd like celtic rock, but I also said that it's quite likely that she actually hates music altogether. And what you say, Weiser, does have some truth within some of what she says in the game... that she wants to be somewhere quiet. In fact, I believe one of her sound files actually has her saying "It's quiet... just how I like it."

I agree with both of you, I think there is still a lot about Jack we don't yet know, and as more walls get broke down the more we will learn. I think there is a self-esteeme issue as well, She feels the need to embelish what she has done, to make herself sound more "badass" and to live up to her own reputation. She probably hasn't met anyone yet she could be honest and vulnerable with. In walks Shepard. (And this is the reason I hope they do not have a tragic end to this relationship).

[Ilzairspar]

gneissguy2003 wrote...

Weiser_Cain wrote...

Mkrgross wrote...

We have already debated the "stereotype" argument. If you have something new to add you should have led with that. We would be happy to hear you and/or debate with new material. We can be quite civil.

Well not all of you...
I don't think Jack would nessasarily be a metal chick. Most of her action and half her tattoos are her acting out because of the trauma of her youth.
Jack has lived a life of violence so just hearing about imagined violence from someone that never lived it would probably be more annoying than relateable. What I think she really wants is peace.
That's why she's at the bottom of the ship. All the tough girls stuff is armor, you act like you don't care so no one knows that they can or how to hurt you.

See, now if you'd just said that initially instead of the whole "walking stereotype" thing, we'd have never blown up at you.

As to what you say here, I think I actually totally agree with you. I mentioned in an earlier post that I thought maybe she'd like celtic rock, but I also said that it's quite likely that she actually hates music altogether. And what you say, Weiser, does have some truth within some of what she says in the game... that she wants to be somewhere quiet. In fact, I believe one of her sound files actually has her saying "It's quiet... just how I like it."

I think I might have to agree with you just on the side of logistics.

If she's listening to music she can't hear someone sneaking up to get her form behind.

[gneissguy2003]

Ilzairspar wrote...

gneissguy2003 wrote...

Weiser_Cain wrote...

Mkrgross wrote...

We have already debated the "stereotype" argument. If you have something new to add you should have led with that. We would be happy to hear you and/or debate with new material. We can be quite civil.

Well not all of you...
I don't think Jack would nessasarily be a metal chick. Most of her action and half her tattoos are her acting out because of the trauma of her youth.
Jack has lived a life of violence so just hearing about imagined violence from someone that never lived it would probably be more annoying than relateable. What I think she really wants is peace.
That's why she's at the bottom of the ship. All the tough girls stuff is armor, you act like you don't care so no one knows that they can or how to hurt you.

See, now if you'd just said that initially instead of the whole "walking stereotype" thing, we'd have never blown up at you.

As to what you say here, I think I actually totally agree with you. I mentioned in an earlier post that I thought maybe she'd like celtic rock, but I also said that it's quite likely that she actually hates music altogether. And what you say, Weiser, does have some truth within some of what she says in the game... that she wants to be somewhere quiet. In fact, I believe one of her sound files actually has her saying "It's quiet... just how I like it."

I think I might have to agree with you just on the side of logistics.

If she's listening to music she can't hear someone sneaking up to get her form behind.

She does seem like one of those people who "sleeps with one eye open", doesn't she?

[Mondo47]

gneissguy2003 wrote...

Jackal904 wrote...

Mondo47 wrote...

Epantiras wrote...

gneissguy2003 wrote...

And we've officially crossed into Talimancer territory. 

I'm sorry, but I have to agree :-(
No hard feelings!

Maybe you should start a fanfiction-only thread.

I'll just go and sulk now...

You don't need to make a fanfic only thread, just avoid creepy sex... I don't want to say fantasies but... well you know . I like your fanfics a lot, it's just the last one was .... awkward.

That's pretty much how I felt, too. Sorry Mondo. Everything else before that I've always liked or had a good chuckle at, and I (like others) am still waiting for your hypothetical ME3 ending. I truly am looking forward to it.

Worry not, folks - I was attempting to satirise the kind of horrors that generally get churned out by terrible 'fanfic' and the whole Shepard = Cross-Species Viagra; that whole James Bond vibe the Mass Effect 'love scenes' have (I prefer to think of these little bits of mine as 'deleted scenes'... for the DVD extras and the obligatory Director's Cut 20th Aniversary Edition ). You read it a little more seriously than I intended - my bad,  I thought that Tali saying she'd pay for hot lesbian DLC in the last one I did was enough groundwork.  And hey, I was hoping some more militant Tali fans would drop by and get all offended

No apologies required people, seriously. I'm only really pouting because I have toothache!

[Mkrgross]

gneissguy2003 wrote...

Ilzairspar wrote...

gneissguy2003 wrote...

Weiser_Cain wrote...

Mkrgross wrote...

We have already debated the "stereotype" argument. If you have something new to add you should have led with that. We would be happy to hear you and/or debate with new material. We can be quite civil.

Well not all of you...
I don't think Jack would nessasarily be a metal chick. Most of her action and half her tattoos are her acting out because of the trauma of her youth.
Jack has lived a life of violence so just hearing about imagined violence from someone that never lived it would probably be more annoying than relateable. What I think she really wants is peace.
That's why she's at the bottom of the ship. All the tough girls stuff is armor, you act like you don't care so no one knows that they can or how to hurt you.

See, now if you'd just said that initially instead of the whole "walking stereotype" thing, we'd have never blown up at you.

As to what you say here, I think I actually totally agree with you. I mentioned in an earlier post that I thought maybe she'd like celtic rock, but I also said that it's quite likely that she actually hates music altogether. And what you say, Weiser, does have some truth within some of what she says in the game... that she wants to be somewhere quiet. In fact, I believe one of her sound files actually has her saying "It's quiet... just how I like it."

I think I might have to agree with you just on the side of logistics.

If she's listening to music she can't hear someone sneaking up to get her form behind.

She does seem like one of those people who "sleeps with one eye open", doesn't she?

Pistol under pillow.

I can see her sleeping like Leon, in The Professional.

[Nightwriter]

I've always been vaguely irritated when people cry cliche or stereotype about these things.

They say it so often. It's like if it's already been done similarly somewhere else it's completely inadmissable and worthy of an eye roll.

Fiction cliches are unavoidable. What's important is if the cliches are well written and used well. I liked Jack for her character, and really, I don't give a damn if it was a cliche or not, getting past her defenses to see her inner vulnerability. I liked what they did with her.

Give me that over the ME1 romances any day. They felt monotonous.

[gneissguy2003]

Mkrgross wrote...

gneissguy2003 wrote...

Ilzairspar wrote...

gneissguy2003 wrote...

Weiser_Cain wrote...

Mkrgross wrote...

We have already debated the "stereotype" argument. If you have something new to add you should have led with that. We would be happy to hear you and/or debate with new material. We can be quite civil.

Well not all of you...
I don't think Jack would nessasarily be a metal chick. Most of her action and half her tattoos are her acting out because of the trauma of her youth.
Jack has lived a life of violence so just hearing about imagined violence from someone that never lived it would probably be more annoying than relateable. What I think she really wants is peace.
That's why she's at the bottom of the ship. All the tough girls stuff is armor, you act like you don't care so no one knows that they can or how to hurt you.

See, now if you'd just said that initially instead of the whole "walking stereotype" thing, we'd have never blown up at you.

As to what you say here, I think I actually totally agree with you. I mentioned in an earlier post that I thought maybe she'd like celtic rock, but I also said that it's quite likely that she actually hates music altogether. And what you say, Weiser, does have some truth within some of what she says in the game... that she wants to be somewhere quiet. In fact, I believe one of her sound files actually has her saying "It's quiet... just how I like it."

I think I might have to agree with you just on the side of logistics.

If she's listening to music she can't hear someone sneaking up to get her form behind.

She does seem like one of those people who "sleeps with one eye open", doesn't she?

Pistol under pillow.

I can see her sleeping like Leon, in The Professional.

Great! Now you've got me imagining Natalie Portman reprising her role as Matilda, all grown up, shaving her head, and following in Leon's footsteps as a sexy bada**.  Not that I don't like the thought, but damn it if that isn't going to distract me all god**** day.

Modifié par gneissguy2003, 26 mars 2010 - 07:09 .

[Jackal904]

Mondo47 wrote...

Worry not, folks - I was attempting to satirise the kind of horrors that generally get churned out by terrible 'fanfic' and the whole Shepard = Cross-Species Viagra; that whole James Bond vibe the Mass Effect 'love scenes' have (I prefer to think of these little bits of mine as 'deleted scenes'... for the DVD extras and the obligatory Director's Cut 20th Aniversary Edition ). You read it a little more seriously than I intended - my bad,  I thought that Tali saying she'd pay for hot lesbian DLC in the last one I did was enough groundwork.  And hey, I was hoping some more militant Tali fans would drop by and get all offended

No apologies required people, seriously. I'm only really pouting because I have toothache!

Well that's good . I was never very good at catching satire myself. I thought "A Modest Proposal" was legit .

Nightwriter wrote...

I've always been vaguely irritated when people cry cliche or stereotype about these things.

They say it so often. It's like if it's already been done similarly somewhere else it's completely inadmissable and worthy of an eye roll.

Fiction cliches are unavoidable. What's important is if the cliches are well written and used well. I liked Jack for her character, and really, I don't give a damn if it was a cliche or not, getting past her defenses to see her inner vulnerability. I liked what they did with her.

Give me that over the ME1 romances any day. They felt monotonous.

I feel the same way. I can't stand it when people throw around the word 'stereotype' like they invented it. Every character in fiction has some stereotypes, and there is nothing anyone can do about it. And to consider a character 'lame' because they have some remote similarities to another character somewhere in the world of fiction, is just stupid.

Modifié par Jackal904, 26 mars 2010 - 07:09 .

[Biserthebomb]

[Mondo47]

Stereotypes aren't universally bad - that's what people have to remember. Without them, most of the folklaw of this planet would be so bloody dull and class-divided we'd have no oral culture. Stereotypes only fail when they act to reinforce outmoded or offensive cultural concepts without clarifying a satirical or past-referential position.

Eeek... grad-paper language! Wash my mouth out with soap and DDT!

[Epantiras]

Nightwriter wrote...

Fiction cliches are unavoidable. What's important is if the cliches are well written and used well.

That's exactly what I think.
Take Shepard as an example... he's basically the modern version of James T. Kirk (or the female equivalent) but it's damn awesome to play as him/her.

[royceclemens]

Fella wiser than myself once said:



"The only reason cliches become cliches is because they are the hammers and screwdrivcers in the toolbox of communication."



Shorthand is necessary. Establish a few overarcing motifs and you can get to the nuts and bolts of what makes a particular character special. Little elements of backstory, the things they say, how they say them can create something greater than some of its forbears. Greater than the sum of its parts.

[Mondo47]

yorkj86 wrote...

I imagine that Shepard keeps a pistol under his pillow. I imagine Jack finding it during a love-making session, and complimenting him about it. I envision Jack and Shepard sleeping, in Shepard's bed, when EDI pops up to tell Shepard something, perhaps to wake up. Both Shepard and Jack wake up with a start at the sound of EDI's voice. Both of them are aiming their arms in the direction of EDI's avatar, but Jack is holding Shepard's gun, not Shepard.  It takes Shepard a while to realize what's happened, but he looks over at Jack, gestures to his gun, and she looks back and asks, "What?"

It's a funny image.

Because I can't resist...


Jack: (breathlessly) ... hey! What the **** is this?

Jack extracts a massive antique revolver from under Shepard's pillow.

Shep: (equally breathlessly) Huh? That? Oh, it's just an old early 21st handgun... keep it there just in case.

Jack: (weighing the gun in her hands) How do you kill someone with it? Throw it at them?

Shep: .50 caliber rounds were about the biggest you could get back then...

Jack: (opening the cylinder) **** me, percussion caps! Cute! Did they give these to schoolkids back then? Oh, coated tips... tungsten carbide penetrators... I'm guessing old-school TNT as a charge catalyst... barrel's about eight inches...

Shep: Ten.

Jack: Ha! Sure. Men can't measure anything right... eight inch barrel, precision rifling, three muzzle compensators... probably fairly accurate at range. Doubt you could tickle a Krogan with this, but anything else, point-blank... you could **** it up pretty bad... wonder how much modern alloy these could get through? How thick's Miranda's door...

Shep: (slightly put out) ... do you want to stop?

Jack: Hell no! I want to borrow this!

[Nightwriter]

Jackal904 wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

I've always been vaguely irritated when people cry cliche or stereotype about these things.

They say it so often. It's like if it's already been done similarly somewhere else it's completely inadmissable and worthy of an eye roll.

Fiction cliches are unavoidable. What's important is if the cliches are well written and used well. I liked Jack for her character, and really, I don't give a damn if it was a cliche or not, getting past her defenses to see her inner vulnerability. I liked what they did with her.

Give me that over the ME1 romances any day. They felt monotonous.

I feel the same way. I can't stand it when people throw around the word 'stereotype' like they invented it. Every character in fiction has some stereotypes, and there is nothing anyone can do about it. And to consider a character 'lame' because they have some remote similarities to another character somewhere in the world of fiction, is just stupid.

[smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/tongue.png[/smilie] I like you.

The same people who scoff at supposed "cliches" always seem to be the same ones who talk about how they'd like to see some totally horrid plot twists or horrific story developments simply because it would be totally gory and unexpected and unprecedented. Do you know what I mean? Maybe I didn't explain that well.

I've just never understood those people.

Epantiras wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Fiction cliches are unavoidable. What's important is if the cliches are well written and used well.

That's exactly what I think.

Take Shepard as an example... he's basically the modern version of James T. Kirk (or the female equivalent) but it's damn awesome to play as him/her.

Yes! Yes it is. It's like Leliana says, all stories share common similarities and themes. It's the familiarity of these
common themes and the way they run through all stories that we look for and enjoy.

Modifié par Nightwriter, 26 mars 2010 - 08:15 .

[Jackal904]

Mondo47 wrote...

Because I can't resist...

Pffft, I don't care how futuristic your pistols may be, they ane't got **** on a deagle .

Nightwriter wrote...

I like you.

The same people who scoff at supposed "cliches" always seem to be the same ones who talk about how they'd like to see some totally horrid plot twists or horrific story developments simply because it would be totally gory and unexpected and unprecedented. Do you know what I mean? Maybe I didn't explain that well.

Ya I know what you mean . People that are like, "This makes no ****ing sense and it's absolutely retarded, but hey, it's original therefore it's awesome!" Originality does not always equal good.

Modifié par Jackal904, 26 mars 2010 - 08:21 .

[Mondo47]

Jackal904 wrote...

Mondo47 wrote...

Because I can't resist...

Pffft, I don't care how futuristic your pistols may be, they ane't got **** on a deagle .

I like old-school monster-pistols; where bigger certainly means better - I was giving props to the S&W 500 HIVIZ. If wheelguns are good enough for cowboys...

[stormrain]

Jackal904 wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

I like you.

The same people who scoff at supposed "cliches" always seem to be the same ones who talk about how they'd like to see some totally horrid plot twists or horrific story developments simply because it would be totally gory and unexpected and unprecedented. Do you know what I mean? Maybe I didn't explain that well.

Ya I know what you mean . People that are like, "This makes no ****ing sense and it's absolutely retarded, but hey, it's original therefore it's awesome!" Originality does not always equal good.

As Mark Twain once said: 

"Your manuscript is both good and original; but the part that is good is not original, and the part that is original is not good."

[BobbyTheI]

Mondo47 wrote...
Worry not, folks - I was attempting to satirise the kind of horrors that generally get churned out by terrible 'fanfic' and the whole Shepard = Cross-Species Viagra; that whole James Bond vibe the Mass Effect 'love scenes' have (I prefer to think of these little bits of mine as 'deleted scenes'... for the DVD extras and the obligatory Director's Cut 20th Aniversary Edition  ). You read it a little more seriously than I intended - my bad,  I thought that Tali saying she'd pay for hot lesbian DLC in the last one I did was enough groundwork.  And hey, I was hoping some more militant Tali fans would drop by and get all offended

No apologies required people, seriously. I'm only really pouting because I have toothache!

Heh.  I was going to use this line in a comp at some point, but it's too fourth-wall-breaky, I think.

Tali confers with Jack and Miranda before filming their "deleted scene."  

[Booglarize]

BobbyTheI wrote...

Heh.  I was going to use this line in a comp at some point, but it's too fourth-wall-breaky, I think.

Tali confers with Jack and Miranda before filming their "deleted scene."  

Hah! Good lord, that really is quite perfect...

[Mondo47]

BobbyTheI wrote...

Heh.  I was going to use this line in a comp at some point, but it's too fourth-wall-breaky, I think.

Tali confers with Jack and Miranda before filming their "deleted scene."  

Arf arf arf

[Chaos-fusion]

BobbyTheI wrote...
Tali confers with
Jack and Miranda before filming their "deleted scene." [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/lol.png[/smilie] 

Oh, that's brilliant. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/grin.png[/smilie]

Nightwriter wrote...

Yes! Yes it is. It's like Leliana says, all stories share common similarities and themes. It's the familiarity of these
common themes and the way they run through all stories that we look for and enjoy.

Leliana is absolutely right in this. If you pursue the romance, Jack's archetype is perhaps one of my favourites - the chance to shine some light into a dark mind. It's naive to think it ever happens really, but it's sweet nonetheless.

Eh, sometimes I wish I was as verbose, or eloquent as some of the other Jack fans. Unfortunate that my attempts to make comments on her character have finesse matching bakery with a hammer.

Modifié par Chaos-fusion, 26 mars 2010 - 10:27 .

[InStereoWhereAvailable]

Completely off-topic (Sort of), but I just saw what happens if you reject Jack before the Omega-4 Relay. Painful, to say the least... <-- This was my face. (And hers...)

[Mondo47]

Chaos-fusion wrote...

BobbyTheI wrote...
Tali confers with
Jack and Miranda before filming their "deleted scene." [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/lol.png[/smilie] 

Oh, that's brilliant. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/grin.png[/smilie]

Nightwriter wrote...

Yes! Yes it is. It's like Leliana says, all stories share common similarities and themes. It's the familiarity of these
common themes and the way they run through all stories that we look for and enjoy.

Leliana is absolutely right in this. If you pursue the romance, Jack's archetype is perhaps one of my favourites - the chance to shine some light into a dark mind. It's naive to think it ever happens really, but it's sweet nonetheless.

Eh, sometimes I wish I was as verbose, or eloquent as some of the other Jack fans. Unfortunate that my attempts to make comments on her character have finesse matching bakery with a hammer.

Say it any way you can - short and sweet beats the way I bang on anyday