was a marginal fan of jack until just a few moments ago. Just did the IFF mission with Jack and Samara.
First of all, Shockwave is simply devastating and much fun to use against husks.
Second, at the end of the mission, when discussing with the ladies whether or not to take the
Geth back to the Normandy, Jack says something like "turn it into a lamp for all I care, but I ain't carrying s**T!
I'm sold. Best character in the game. Period. They're all great characterizations, but she has complexity, depth, and a plethora of one-liners that put Morrigan to shame.
Into the Bad Girl: Jack Fans
Débuté par
Average Gatsby
, févr. 05 2010 03:24
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#302
Posté 18 février 2010 - 08:36
Savey Anchev
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I really enjoyed Jack, totally different to anything I've seen in a Bioware game before, a total breath of fresh air. Would LOVE to see her back in ME3.
#303
Posté 18 février 2010 - 02:46
Jackal904
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Savey Anchev wrote...
I really enjoyed Jack, totally different to anything I've seen in a Bioware game before, a total breath of fresh air. Would LOVE to see her back in ME3.
I know she's like no other character you've seen in both Mass Effect games. She cracks me up, but she also has a lot of depth to her.
#304
Posté 18 février 2010 - 05:32
Alorint
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Jack was my second romance after Tali. I loved her romance scene before the suecide mission. Very emotion filled.
#305
Posté 18 février 2010 - 05:36
RighteousRage
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DarthCaine wrote...
erm... I thought everybody found them hilariousRighteousRage wrote...
Did you guys find HK-47 and Minsc hilarious also?
The funniest things I found in KotOR and Baldur's Gate were usually dark side/evil responses rather than any characters, who did not even make me chuckle.
"He said meatbag lol that's so funny"
"Oh look Minsc is shouting again, man this character is great"
#306
Posté 18 février 2010 - 05:54
Jackal904
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After looking up those two characters, I don't see how they're like Jack at all, they're not even close. Jack is much funnier than HK-47 and Minsc. It just sounds like you have some unconditional dislike towards her, therefore you try to act like she isn't funny.
#307
Posté 18 février 2010 - 06:15
Console Cowboy
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RighteousRage wrote...
"He said meatbag lol that's so funny"
no offense, but you don't "get" it.
#308
Posté 18 février 2010 - 06:21
challenger18
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I found Jack funny. I found HK-47 funny at times. Minsc wasn't funny to me. In fact, if I try to think of funny moments in BG, the few that come to mind usually involve Viconia ****ing with the other party members and the dialogue between Saravok and Imoen.
Really, Minsc and Boo were like the mascots of the Baldur's Gate series, so that's why I think people endear them so.
Really, Minsc and Boo were like the mascots of the Baldur's Gate series, so that's why I think people endear them so.
#309
Posté 18 février 2010 - 06:29
Nastrod
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I do not see how people are comparing HK-47 to Jack since they are nothing alike. Hk-47 was comic relief and Jack is the tortured one. Really Grunt is closer to HK-47 then any of the others with lines like " I like you Shepard I would never stab you in the back real warriors it is straight to the face.....kidding"
Modifié par Nastrod, 18 février 2010 - 06:35 .
#311
Posté 18 février 2010 - 08:38
Jackal904
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Nastrod wrote...
I do not see how people are comparing HK-47 to Jack since they are nothing alike. Hk-47 was comic relief and Jack is the tortured one. Really Grunt is closer to HK-47 then any of the others with lines like " I like you Shepard I would never stab you in the back real warriors it is straight to the face.....kidding"
Haha ya I think Grunt is really funny too. I love all the humor and little easter egg things in ME2.
#312
Posté 19 février 2010 - 01:36
Mondo47
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Here is my take on the character, love or hate her, feel free to shoot it down in flames - it's just my opinion. Try to stay awake; it’s a long one 
The 'norm' in RPGs is that a party is usually made up of coherent elements that function together from the first moment, or numerous non-cohesive ones that become cohesive by the climax of the story. The thing is, Jack is the only real non-cohesive element from moment one; everyone else settles into the Normandy, accepting Shepard's command almost without question and begins to focus on dealing with the Collectors (even looking at characters experienced with the darker side of Cerberus projects, they step right up to the plate with no real assumption they might care beyond a simple "I'm here for you."), while Jack doesn't really want to come along at all. There's no talk or assumption of loyalty after that; Shepard is Cerberus, wanting something from her again after they've taken pretty much everything there was to take. While everyone else trusts Shepard through experience or deeds, Jack never does. You have to earn her respect constantly. And boy is that an uphill struggle.
She makes no effort; she snarks her way through missions, displays character traits that are certainly sociopathic by throwing herself at Shepard sexually, displaying no remorse for previous misdeeds, explodes into casual threats of outright violence, etc. but utterly lacks the exterior charm, guile or panoply of lies of the textbook psychotic. Part of Jack is remorseless in its honesty; she takes crap from no-one and has a long memory where a potential betrayal is concerned. She's expecting it constantly, from any quarter. Even when being romanced, she's waiting for the knife in the back, and even if she begins to trust Shepard, no-one else is beyond suspicion.
Any vulnerability Jack has has been abused, almost every trust broken. Combine that with a childhood that almost certainly would cause PTSD to the nth degree and deliberate attempts to condition her to enjoy conflict, violence and physical pain has resulted in the creation of a woman that vacillates between promiscuity and casual violence. None of it is her fault. She was made that way; constructed to order.
Comparisons to Miranda and Grunt are obvious; all were ‘made’ to be ultimates (however Miranda had the chance to break away and forge her own destiny, and Grunt is a success as an 'ultimate warrior' due to the advantage of being Krogan, but understands little of what it means to be Krogan before his Rite). Jack however is the failure; the incomplete cast-off, and has had no-one to make her think differently. No wonder she's so damn resentful to Miranda in particular. The Cheerleader (stereotype) is easy and uncomplicated to love, and in this case is more entrenched in the enemy camp than Shep proves to be. So who loves Jack? Someone did once, but he died, leading her to try and shut that door; not even someone that loves her despite the black hole she has spinning around inside can be counted on. Everyone uses her, or worse, everyone leaves her.
Jack is (and don't get me wrong - I like the character more than anyone else in ME2) a pretty unsubtle variation on the broken doll; she tries to fill the shoes of a femme-fatal by being a consummate and dangerous survivor who
accepts that people want her for her power or her body, but the armour of attitude, scars and ink are fairly transparent. She has patched herself back together a hundred times, but to the right eyes she is obviously still damaged. Or her implants are making her like that – either way it’s all sad (and if the experiments that made her are causing unchecked brain damage/eventual death she becomes doubly tragic). She's a character that needs love, moreso than the others who will cope just fine without it. Without it, Jack will continue to circle the drain until it finally swallows her. It takes someone with a chair and a whip to get through the exterior of spikes to try it, and at the end of the day no-one can feel guilty about not wanting to try to tame the lion. Or being too challenged by it.
Jack makes you jump through hoops instead of just swooning on the spot, and probes Shep for his motivation for
helping her face her past and why the hell he/she keeps coming down to the arse-end of the ship to talk. Does he/she just want to **** me? Does he/she want to get me to trust them so they can just **** me over again? Does he/she want to help me, oh please, **** me no, not another ****ing Samaritan! In comparison, Tali has likely been carrying a torch for Shep for a while, lets face it. Miranda has respect for Shep's ability to command, his strength and charisma, and he can see more to her than the crafted perfection/cog in the
machine she was made to be/became. Jack's not a romance of choice - **** off, I need to think. I think some people took this way too seriously (after some of the rabid digital savagings I’ve laughed at on this forum). I
always take the idea of romance in RPGs with a grain of salt. People just don't act like that/say things like that! They make me chuckle. Or make snarky comments *ahem*. When Jack showed up in Shep's loft with those big, sad eyes... I'll admit my icy cynic’s heart defrosted a little. Maybe I brought too many kittens home when I was a kid too? Or I just prefer eyes over asses and scars.
"Maybe you're right, that I need..." is pure cliché (all it takes is the love of a good man/woman – a trope I find a little distasteful\\\\blatantly sexist most of the time, but it is traditionally romantic), true, but so is the high-society gal wanting some hot action in the grimy old engine room and the sweet bookish girl pouncing on you like a praying mantis. All the love interests have their cliché factor. Clichés are clichés because we love them so; they're part of our storytelling heritage. This happened to be the one that spoke to me the most. Romances in RPGs tend to be pushovers; versions of Garrus's 'stress relief' dictum on the way to the final showdown with Baby Cthulhu, while Jack was a puzzle box that seems to have either put people off with its exterior, just frustrated them with its difficult nature. That is, more than anything else, what made her stand out. Her unconventional looks coupled with an abrasive attitude was going to make her only appeal to a section of the fanbase, sure, but boy does she polarise the ME fans! No other character in the series has done this so strongly. The people that dislike her say as much for the character as those that liked her, but those of us that have come out of the ME2 experience as Jack fans
probably liked that one aspect over the others - the fact the character was strong, a survivor, but genuinely vulnerable. Not just another tough-as-nails bad girl. Not sitting in one camp or the other made her a more complete character than I at least expected from a video game, and one some of us certainly want to see more of.
Good job, Bioware. Ya'll can wake up now
The 'norm' in RPGs is that a party is usually made up of coherent elements that function together from the first moment, or numerous non-cohesive ones that become cohesive by the climax of the story. The thing is, Jack is the only real non-cohesive element from moment one; everyone else settles into the Normandy, accepting Shepard's command almost without question and begins to focus on dealing with the Collectors (even looking at characters experienced with the darker side of Cerberus projects, they step right up to the plate with no real assumption they might care beyond a simple "I'm here for you."), while Jack doesn't really want to come along at all. There's no talk or assumption of loyalty after that; Shepard is Cerberus, wanting something from her again after they've taken pretty much everything there was to take. While everyone else trusts Shepard through experience or deeds, Jack never does. You have to earn her respect constantly. And boy is that an uphill struggle.
She makes no effort; she snarks her way through missions, displays character traits that are certainly sociopathic by throwing herself at Shepard sexually, displaying no remorse for previous misdeeds, explodes into casual threats of outright violence, etc. but utterly lacks the exterior charm, guile or panoply of lies of the textbook psychotic. Part of Jack is remorseless in its honesty; she takes crap from no-one and has a long memory where a potential betrayal is concerned. She's expecting it constantly, from any quarter. Even when being romanced, she's waiting for the knife in the back, and even if she begins to trust Shepard, no-one else is beyond suspicion.
Any vulnerability Jack has has been abused, almost every trust broken. Combine that with a childhood that almost certainly would cause PTSD to the nth degree and deliberate attempts to condition her to enjoy conflict, violence and physical pain has resulted in the creation of a woman that vacillates between promiscuity and casual violence. None of it is her fault. She was made that way; constructed to order.
Comparisons to Miranda and Grunt are obvious; all were ‘made’ to be ultimates (however Miranda had the chance to break away and forge her own destiny, and Grunt is a success as an 'ultimate warrior' due to the advantage of being Krogan, but understands little of what it means to be Krogan before his Rite). Jack however is the failure; the incomplete cast-off, and has had no-one to make her think differently. No wonder she's so damn resentful to Miranda in particular. The Cheerleader (stereotype) is easy and uncomplicated to love, and in this case is more entrenched in the enemy camp than Shep proves to be. So who loves Jack? Someone did once, but he died, leading her to try and shut that door; not even someone that loves her despite the black hole she has spinning around inside can be counted on. Everyone uses her, or worse, everyone leaves her.
Jack is (and don't get me wrong - I like the character more than anyone else in ME2) a pretty unsubtle variation on the broken doll; she tries to fill the shoes of a femme-fatal by being a consummate and dangerous survivor who
accepts that people want her for her power or her body, but the armour of attitude, scars and ink are fairly transparent. She has patched herself back together a hundred times, but to the right eyes she is obviously still damaged. Or her implants are making her like that – either way it’s all sad (and if the experiments that made her are causing unchecked brain damage/eventual death she becomes doubly tragic). She's a character that needs love, moreso than the others who will cope just fine without it. Without it, Jack will continue to circle the drain until it finally swallows her. It takes someone with a chair and a whip to get through the exterior of spikes to try it, and at the end of the day no-one can feel guilty about not wanting to try to tame the lion. Or being too challenged by it.
Jack makes you jump through hoops instead of just swooning on the spot, and probes Shep for his motivation for
helping her face her past and why the hell he/she keeps coming down to the arse-end of the ship to talk. Does he/she just want to **** me? Does he/she want to get me to trust them so they can just **** me over again? Does he/she want to help me, oh please, **** me no, not another ****ing Samaritan! In comparison, Tali has likely been carrying a torch for Shep for a while, lets face it. Miranda has respect for Shep's ability to command, his strength and charisma, and he can see more to her than the crafted perfection/cog in the
machine she was made to be/became. Jack's not a romance of choice - **** off, I need to think. I think some people took this way too seriously (after some of the rabid digital savagings I’ve laughed at on this forum). I
always take the idea of romance in RPGs with a grain of salt. People just don't act like that/say things like that! They make me chuckle. Or make snarky comments *ahem*. When Jack showed up in Shep's loft with those big, sad eyes... I'll admit my icy cynic’s heart defrosted a little. Maybe I brought too many kittens home when I was a kid too? Or I just prefer eyes over asses and scars.
"Maybe you're right, that I need..." is pure cliché (all it takes is the love of a good man/woman – a trope I find a little distasteful\\\\blatantly sexist most of the time, but it is traditionally romantic), true, but so is the high-society gal wanting some hot action in the grimy old engine room and the sweet bookish girl pouncing on you like a praying mantis. All the love interests have their cliché factor. Clichés are clichés because we love them so; they're part of our storytelling heritage. This happened to be the one that spoke to me the most. Romances in RPGs tend to be pushovers; versions of Garrus's 'stress relief' dictum on the way to the final showdown with Baby Cthulhu, while Jack was a puzzle box that seems to have either put people off with its exterior, just frustrated them with its difficult nature. That is, more than anything else, what made her stand out. Her unconventional looks coupled with an abrasive attitude was going to make her only appeal to a section of the fanbase, sure, but boy does she polarise the ME fans! No other character in the series has done this so strongly. The people that dislike her say as much for the character as those that liked her, but those of us that have come out of the ME2 experience as Jack fans
probably liked that one aspect over the others - the fact the character was strong, a survivor, but genuinely vulnerable. Not just another tough-as-nails bad girl. Not sitting in one camp or the other made her a more complete character than I at least expected from a video game, and one some of us certainly want to see more of.
Good job, Bioware. Ya'll can wake up now
Modifié par Mondo47, 19 février 2010 - 01:55 .
#314
Posté 19 février 2010 - 02:22
jlb524
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Mondo47 wrote...
Here is my take on the character, love or hate her, feel free to shoot it down in flames - it's just my opinion. Try to stay awake; it’s a long one
*snip*
This post is full of win. Great analysis....reading your analysis of Jack's character even made me sad at some points, but that's a good thing.
#315
Posté 19 février 2010 - 02:32
Shanra
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I love jack. Avatar says it all. My fav char, along with Mordin.
Some of her quips are hilarious. I took her on Miranda's loyalty mission, and the bit she has at the end of that made me laugh. I got to know her, and she really has some depth.
Some of her quips are hilarious. I took her on Miranda's loyalty mission, and the bit she has at the end of that made me laugh. I got to know her, and she really has some depth.
#316
Posté 19 février 2010 - 02:35
bushes289
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I'm wondering, is there a video with the romance build-up? All I can find are videos about the casual sex and the final romance scene. I'd really like to see the development. I suppose I could do a playthrough and romance her but I can't stand playing as ManShep, Shepard will always be female to me and it feels wrong to play as a male. So if there's a video that shows the romance develop could someone please send the link?
#317
Posté 19 février 2010 - 02:47
adriano_c
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Mondo47 wrote...
Here is my take on the character...
Longest post I've actually bothered to read on this forum.
Very thoughtful and well elucidated.
Somewhat of a shame though, since I would expect it won't get proper recognition, as the character (and its thread) are so unappreciated in comparison to others.
Modifié par adriano_c, 19 février 2010 - 02:47 .
#318
Posté 19 février 2010 - 02:48
Razorsedge820
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Mondo47 wrote...
Here is my take on the character, love or hate her, feel free to shoot it down in flames - it's just my opinion. Try to stay awake; it’s a long one
I am going to take your post, engrave it into stone and mount it on my front lawn so the whole world can see its greatness.
#319
Posté 19 février 2010 - 03:16
axl99
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Found a couple on youtube:
Paragon route:
This is a fan tribute with a couple of edited pieces of footage:
It's likely not the complete buildup where all dialogue trees are exhausted, but it's something.
---
I can empathize with people who are offended and turned off by Jack, no one would want to be treated like that in real life and most certainly not in a game. But really, some people are way too quick to judge. There's so much potential with Jack as a character, imagine what she'd be like if the whole cast weren't so constrained by archetypical tropes just so the below average joe gets who they are within 3 seconds.
This is a mature game, but it'd be cool if the story telling took even more creative risks and flew in the face of what the "good story" formula is to the audience. It's good, it'd effective, but it needs like 15 twists and a squeeze of lime to freshen things up.
I view the whole process of character analysis in Mass Effect 2 as looking at a car under the hood.
You see where the wires are crossed, how much residual oil buildup there is clogging the engine, how much juice the battery has left. And you go and fix it. That right there is the ME2 loyalty missions in a nutshell. Now you're all raring to go and ready to see your cars speed away on the race track, and get stopped for weather. Which really sucked.
You don't really get to see Jack in her own element with exception to Purgatory and the suicide mission.
Here's a tidbit I wrote in another thread, copied here for relevancy:
"If you blew up the Collector base and pretty much told the Illusive Man to shove it, even more reason for Jack to like working with you.
Since stuff seems to blow up everywhere you go, she'd probably want in on the destruction and mayhem as well. At least for what it's worth it gives her a sense of purpose and belonging. That's what she and her biotic power was made and conditioned to do.
I mean even if she's just sitting there glowering at the ground she's still one of the strongest, if not the strongest, human biotic in the galaxy. The Alliance should totally take notice of someone like her with such latent abilities - if they don't arrest her and put her in a lab for weapons testing first.
Given her circumstances she's a living, breathing scientific breakthrough because none of the citadel races would expect a human biotic's power to rival that of a 600 year old justicar. Cerberus' treatment of Jack as a child also feeds more fuel to the propaganda fire. She's a political/media ****storm waiting to happen."
Paragon route:
This is a fan tribute with a couple of edited pieces of footage:
It's likely not the complete buildup where all dialogue trees are exhausted, but it's something.
---
I can empathize with people who are offended and turned off by Jack, no one would want to be treated like that in real life and most certainly not in a game. But really, some people are way too quick to judge. There's so much potential with Jack as a character, imagine what she'd be like if the whole cast weren't so constrained by archetypical tropes just so the below average joe gets who they are within 3 seconds.
This is a mature game, but it'd be cool if the story telling took even more creative risks and flew in the face of what the "good story" formula is to the audience. It's good, it'd effective, but it needs like 15 twists and a squeeze of lime to freshen things up.
I view the whole process of character analysis in Mass Effect 2 as looking at a car under the hood.
You see where the wires are crossed, how much residual oil buildup there is clogging the engine, how much juice the battery has left. And you go and fix it. That right there is the ME2 loyalty missions in a nutshell. Now you're all raring to go and ready to see your cars speed away on the race track, and get stopped for weather. Which really sucked.
You don't really get to see Jack in her own element with exception to Purgatory and the suicide mission.
Here's a tidbit I wrote in another thread, copied here for relevancy:
"If you blew up the Collector base and pretty much told the Illusive Man to shove it, even more reason for Jack to like working with you.
Since stuff seems to blow up everywhere you go, she'd probably want in on the destruction and mayhem as well. At least for what it's worth it gives her a sense of purpose and belonging. That's what she and her biotic power was made and conditioned to do.
I mean even if she's just sitting there glowering at the ground she's still one of the strongest, if not the strongest, human biotic in the galaxy. The Alliance should totally take notice of someone like her with such latent abilities - if they don't arrest her and put her in a lab for weapons testing first.
Given her circumstances she's a living, breathing scientific breakthrough because none of the citadel races would expect a human biotic's power to rival that of a 600 year old justicar. Cerberus' treatment of Jack as a child also feeds more fuel to the propaganda fire. She's a political/media ****storm waiting to happen."
Modifié par axl99, 19 février 2010 - 03:22 .
#320
Posté 19 février 2010 - 03:31
Jackal904
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Shanra wrote...
I love jack. Avatar says it all. My fav char, along with Mordin.
Some of her quips are hilarious. I took her on Miranda's loyalty mission, and the bit she has at the end of that made me laugh. I got to know her, and she really has some depth.
Haha ya I did the same. That cracked me up what she says during the conversation with Niket and that asari.
#321
Posté 19 février 2010 - 03:43
Kekse2k
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Default137 wrote...
"Not now, trying to discover how scale-itch infected the Normandy. Sexually transmitted, only carried by Varren, implications...disturbing"
Mordin only says that after Jack has joined the crew.
Trust me, I've checked with all the other characters, several times, he says nothing, its only shortly after Jack joins is anything said, if I really cared, I could probably go check the gamefiles.
I actually heard this before I recruited Jack, only had Zaeed, Miranda, Jacob, and Garrus (and Mordin of course). I just remember going "wtf...interesting?"
#323
Posté 19 février 2010 - 03:54
royceclemens
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Mondo47 wrote...
Here is my take on the character, love or hate her, feel free to shoot it down in flames - it's just my opinion. Try to stay awake; it’s a long one...
My God, Mondo47.
Your win...
It was... So epic!
#324
Posté 19 février 2010 - 04:58
Faust6999
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You really hit the nail on the head Mondo! Great post!
#325
Posté 19 février 2010 - 01:01
Lackey_Liesmith
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Mondo47 wrote...
Here is my take on the character, love or hate her, feel free to shoot it down in flames - it's just my opinion. Try to stay awake; it’s a long one...
What can I say...either you're mind reader or we think alike
But you do happen to have the way with words. Excellent post.
