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[Barrendall]

 I just read a post from another thread that said Jack (he mentioned Miranda as well) was a two dimensional character.  Everyone has the right to their own opinions but.....wow.  Even if you don't like a character you would think you could recognize the writing and development that went into the story.  I have no problem with him not liking Jack, I'm just having a little difficulty wrapping my brain around his conclusion that she's a two dimensional character.

Edit:  The post I'm referring to is on the "I hope Bioware gives the fans the middle finger in ME3.

Modifié par Barrendall111, 02 avril 2010 - 08:16 .

[NovenseiWarden]

Mondo47 wrote...

I don't know, I've written characters before now I seriously couldn't ****ing stand, but they were so much fun to write because they got my back up, because they were so repugnant to me. You can love to hate, y'know?

Reading characters like that is just so rich and interesting, as is discovering people see them in totally different lights. Just to tip a hat to the last few books I've read, the character Littlefinger in George RR Martin's Song of Ice & Fire series. Some people see the guy as being some kind of loveable, roguish mastermind character, which I just cannot understand in the slightest, considering this is a man who has set states at one another's throats, helped ferment a civil war that has caused the loss of thousands of lives and the suffering of countless thousands more, organised wholesale murder (including the murder of children) and even occasionally got his own hands dirty and snuffed a couple of other characters. That in itself isn't bad enough though - he's done it all because someone else married the woman he wanted for himself. Not to rule the world, not to change the fates of nations, but because he's pissed about who a woman is sleeping with! To me, that's just monstrous (not to mention sickeningly pathetic) on a level that can't be forgiven, ever. Death's too good for the bastard. And yet some people read the character as some clever guy playing his enemies off against one another without ever letting the moral backwash of his actions dirty their shoes.

It does kind of explain how people can be such polar-opposites with Jack. Though it seems that some of us are willing to forgive the criminal record as long as your leg, the unconventional appearance and the frankly sucky attitude (though I think most of us just pegged that for the defense mechanism it is), others cannot. Granted, some of those judgements are based solely on appearance (and thus highly personal and therefore invalid as a base of critique), but for those based on deeds and morals... it raises some interesting questions, particularly for those of us who like the character so much.

Then again, our only other options were aliens or creepy Miranda. If paragonized Jack can have her tattoos removed in ME3, I bet there would be a lot of converts.

[Dominus5412]

Lets have Miranda shave her head and get some ink.

[Azint]

Barrendall111 wrote...

 I just read a post from another thread that said Jack (he mentioned Miranda as well) was a two dimensional character.  Everyone has the right to their own opinions but.....wow.  Even if you don't like a character you would think you could recognize the writing and development that went into the story.  I have no problem with him not liking Jack, I'm just having a little difficulty wrapping my brain around his conclusion that she's a two dimensional character.

Edit:  The post I'm referring to is on the "I hope Bioware gives the fans the middle finger in ME3.

I wouldn't worry about it. People have different preferences and opinions, you don't have to agree with what others think if they conflict with what you believe.

[NovenseiWarden]

Dominus5412 wrote...

Lets have Miranda shave her head and get some ink.

This

[Mondo47]

NovenseiWarden wrote...

Then again, our only other options were aliens or creepy Miranda. If paragonized Jack can have her tattoos removed in ME3, I bet there would be a lot of converts.

You're very right there. Jack was designed to only appeal visually to a certain bracket of society. Outside of people not wigged out by a lot of ink or alternative/punk gals, she's too odd to appeal visually. Tali gets over the odd bracket by being sweet and girlish - people can look past her being an alien because they see a much greater set of potential attractive qualities. Jack strikes out on that front too thanks to her attitude. To find that girl inside her you have to strip the gorgon off the outside. Cliche? Sure. But it's shocking how few people want to bother, and thankfully less shocking those that do try tend to pop in here and say "I was pleasantly surprised when I romanced Jack - it wasn't what I expected."

As much as it might tilt her popularity, without the skin art and the shaved head, she wouldn't be Jack; she'd be another generic beautiful bad girl from the moment you laid eyes on her. She has to stay the way she is (or only alter subtly). Without it, she'd just be a narkier version of Miranda

[NovenseiWarden]

I think you're right, Mondo47, and if they did change her most of the converts would start liking her for the wrong reasons. It would be nice to see some physical or personality changes for those who romanced her though.

Modifié par NovenseiWarden, 02 avril 2010 - 09:56 .

[Barrendall]

Azint wrote...

Barrendall111 wrote...

 I just read a post from another thread that said Jack (he mentioned Miranda as well) was a two dimensional character.  Everyone has the right to their own opinions but.....wow.  Even if you don't like a character you would think you could recognize the writing and development that went into the story.  I have no problem with him not liking Jack, I'm just having a little difficulty wrapping my brain around his conclusion that she's a two dimensional character.

Edit:  The post I'm referring to is on the "I hope Bioware gives the fans the middle finger in ME3.

I wouldn't worry about it. People have different preferences and opinions, you don't have to agree with what others think if they conflict with what you believe.

Heh, I'm not worried, I was more or less stating my disbelief without derailing that other thread.  No point in debating something that is clearly not worth debating, eh?

[Jackal904]

yorkj86 wrote...

NovenseiWarden wrote...

Then again, our only other options were aliens or creepy Miranda. If paragonized Jack can have her tattoos removed in ME3, I bet there would be a lot of converts.

If they couldn't see her past her tattoos to who Jack really is, what makes you think they'll care about her if her tattoos were to suddenly disappear?  In fact, that's just a reason to leave her tattoos and her shaved head as they are.

Because people are that shallow. But I don't want Jack's tattoos removed. They are part of what Makes Jack, Jack. If they give her some big makeover in ME3 I will be pissed.

The only thing I would want different about her apperance in ME3 is for her to get rid of that belt bra and just wear a normal bra underneath her loyalty outfit (the black vest/tank top thing).

Modifié par Jackal904, 02 avril 2010 - 10:11 .

[Mkrgross]

yorkj86 wrote...

NovenseiWarden wrote...

Then again, our only other options were aliens or creepy Miranda. If paragonized Jack can have her tattoos removed in ME3, I bet there would be a lot of converts.

If they couldn't see her past her tattoos to who Jack really is, what makes you think they'll care about her if her tattoos were to suddenly disappear?  In fact, that's just a reason to leave her tattoos and her shaved head as they are.

Because they are shallow, and looks are everything to many people. There are countless posts stating that, If only Jack had hair. If only Jack didn't have so many tats. If only Jack  had better starting clothes. If only Jack didn't cuss. If only...blah, blah, blah. I think you get the idea.

Edit: Jackal beat me to it. Ah great minds think alike.

Modifié par Mkrgross, 02 avril 2010 - 10:13 .

[Barrendall]

We all evolve over time. Back in my teens to mid twenties I was into the whole long hair metal look. Now that I'm almost 40 my hair is much shorter and my choice of wardrobe has evolved. (No acid-washed jeans) Essentially I'm the same guy I was then but as time went by and with more experience behind me I grew into the different trends and styles that suited me. Some have stayed the same some have changed. I can see Jack with a different hairstyle after a certain amount of time gone by but certainly not the tattoos. The ink tells her tale in a way.

[Mkrgross]

Barrendall111 wrote...

We all evolve over time. Back in my teens to mid twenties I was into the whole long hair metal look. Now that I'm almost 40 my hair is much shorter and my choice of wardrobe has evolved. (No acid-washed jeans) Essentially I'm the same guy I was then but as time went by and with more experience behind me I grew into the different trends and styles that suited me. Some have stayed the same some have changed. I can see Jack with a different hairstyle after a certain amount of time gone by but certainly not the tattoos. The ink tells her tale in a way.

I certainly see Jack evolving in some way, but I don't see her losing her identity, the things that make Jack, Jack. Hair can certainly be one of the changes, maybe possibly clothing, but I wouldn't want to see more than one change.

[Neccrid]

It just shows that Jack fans compared to whoever else fans are of a different class. We don't look at whats only presented on the outside but we like to delve deep into characters and look to what makes them tick.

Jack is BioWare's type of character. She is that character that the player needs to chip away at to fully understand. And it shows that either players don't care about engaging with characters who they don't deem attractive or they simply don't know what makes a good character.

Personally I find Jack attractive. The tattoos make her unique.. The shaved head -- while thats not something I usually would say is attractive on a woman works astonishingly well with Jack, and those eyes.. don't even get me started with her eyes.

I don't really care if people hate Jack because I don't like being mainstream or part of what's cool. Jack is my favorite Mass Effect character and no one will change my mind.

Modifié par Neccrid, 02 avril 2010 - 10:38 .

[Barrendall]

Mkrgross wrote...

Barrendall111 wrote...

We all evolve over time. Back in my teens to mid twenties I was into the whole long hair metal look. Now that I'm almost 40 my hair is much shorter and my choice of wardrobe has evolved. (No acid-washed jeans) Essentially I'm the same guy I was then but as time went by and with more experience behind me I grew into the different trends and styles that suited me. Some have stayed the same some have changed. I can see Jack with a different hairstyle after a certain amount of time gone by but certainly not the tattoos. The ink tells her tale in a way.

I certainly see Jack evolving in some way, but I don't see her losing her identity, the things that make Jack, Jack. Hair can certainly be one of the changes, maybe possibly clothing, but I wouldn't want to see more than one change.

Indeed I agree.  The only changes I see that Jack making are pretty much superficial (Haircut and clothing perhaps)  I don't see her suddenly hanging frilly pink curtains and exchanging her pistol for cooking recipes.

Modifié par Barrendall111, 02 avril 2010 - 10:43 .

[Mkrgross]

I would totally be happy if nothing about her appearance changes at all, but if Bioware decides they need to change something, I hope it is something superficial.

[Mondo47]

Thanks to writing all these 'deleted scenes', I've given some thought to Jack coming out of her shell (in a serious way, or at least semi-serious... we're not talking Anderson Suite here ). I've written a script that plays out way too long for a death scene (I had to try and explain how the Normandy got so ****ed up, then where everyone else was, then why Jack was still there, then what they were trying to do... personal relationship drama is a damn sight easier - I will post it eventually, once I figure how to pair it back a bit more) and as I was requested to do something with Jack and Grunt I did a a scene that involved, well, you'll see, it needs a little more tooling... let's just say it involves Shepard's birthday and 'presents' Grunt though really does seem like an obvious first friend to make for her; they're both somewhat restrained emotionally, Grunt because he's still learning who he is, Jack because she's learning how to be not what others expect of her. I'm working on another Grunt and Jack scene on the Citadel... Grunt's hard to get right dialogue-wise, though... I can get Krogan attitude down-pat though.

Rest assured though, unless it's right through the fourth wall, I won't change Jack too much

[Barrendall]

Mondo47 wrote...

Thanks to writing all these 'deleted scenes', I've given some thought to Jack coming out of her shell (in a serious way, or at least semi-serious... we're not talking Anderson Suite here ). I've written a script that plays out way too long for a death scene (I had to try and explain how the Normandy got so ****ed up, then where everyone else was, then why Jack was still there, then what they were trying to do... personal relationship drama is a damn sight easier - I will post it eventually, once I figure how to pair it back a bit more) and as I was requested to do something with Jack and Grunt I did a a scene that involved, well, you'll see, it needs a little more tooling... let's just say it involves Shepard's birthday and 'presents' Grunt though really does seem like an obvious first friend to make for her; they're both somewhat restrained emotionally, Grunt because he's still learning who he is, Jack because she's learning how to be not what others expect of her. I'm working on another Grunt and Jack scene on the Citadel... Grunt's hard to get right dialogue-wise, though... I can get Krogan attitude down-pat though.

Rest assured though, unless it's right through the fourth wall, I won't change Jack too much

Woot!!  I've always thought that Jack and Grunt could be buds or at the very least not hate each other as much as the others on the crew.  

[Jackal904]

Neccrid wrote...

Personally I find Jack attractive. The tattoos make her unique.. The shaved head -- while thats not something I usually would say is attractive on a woman works astonishingly well with Jack, and those eyes.. don't even get me started with her eyes. 

Same here. I find Jack very physically attractive, and I've always hated when chicks get their head shaved. Jack is the only female from any movie, game, or real life, that I have ever thought looks good, and in fact prefer, with a shaved head. And it's not like she's Vin Diesel bald. I really like the widow's peak she's rock'n. I think it's a very important part of her look. It makes her look more feminine. And I never understood how someone could be fascinated by a person's eyes. But Jack has made me understand. Well her and Taylor Swift. Miranda has dat ass, and Jack has dem eyes.

@Mondo

Look'n forward to it .

Modifié par Jackal904, 02 avril 2010 - 11:51 .

[Mondo47]

The Presidium, 13:42 Station-Time…


Bailey and Shepard are sat in a C-Sec cruiser, speeding towards a location. Lights and sirens are in full effect.

Bailey: I figured a ride was the least I could do…

Shep: Thanks for this… I’m sure he’s not trying to do any harm up there.

Bailey: I’ll take your word for it, Commander, but Presidium Security tend to be a little… twitchy with Krogan. Hold on… we’re going in.

The cruiser arcs down through the holographic false-sky of the Presidium ring, cutting through traffic towards a quartet of C-sec cruisers hovering over the reservoir near the Conduit. One of them is an obvious special-response model with a fat mag-acc turret. There also appears to be a fairly large crowd watching the events unfold. Bailey and Shepard land, exit, and barge through the gawkers towards the impromptu police line.

Bailey: Captain Bailey, Zakera Ward. I got a Spectre with me. We heard the comm chatter. What’s the situation?

C-Sec Patrolman: We’ve got a Krogan in the reservoir. He’s armed, but refuses to surrender his weapon. He’s got some explosives of some kind too. Demolition charges or grav-reaction devices going on the amount of mess they make.

Bailey: How’d he get them through the Presidium screens?

C-Sec Patrolman: Beats me. Should be impossible. We’ve held back for now as we've had no casualties, just  a ****load of broken windows… didn’t want an incident, you know?

Shep: What’s he doing?

C-Sec Patrolman: He says he’s fishing.

Shep: Oh Christ…

Bailey: What is it with Krogan and fish?

Shepard and Bailey head to the reservoir bank. Grunt is standing waist deep in the artificial lake, pointing his Claymore at the water with deadly intent.

Shep: Grunt! What the hell are you doing?

Grunt: (without taking his eyes off the water) Looking for fish.

Shep: There are no fish in the reservoir! We’ve gone through this before!

Grunt: (patting shotgun) I thought about using a rod or spear, but this is better. If there’s fish here, they’ve nowhere to run… swim to. They are sly. Swift. Worthy prey. I have a tactical advantage though…

Shep: Is that the explosives they say you’ve brought up here? Grunt, do I have to explain how much trouble you can get into for smuggling detonators up here?

Grunt: No. I don’t need explosives to make things blow up. A good warrior knows his brethren are worth a thousand bombs.

Shep: Wha-

There is a sudden collective gasp as a blue light winks somewhere a couple of hundred yards out into the water, heralded by a muffled thump.

C-Sec Patrolman: He's doing it again! EVERYBODY DOWN!

Shepard watches aghast as the bloom of light in the water expands, pushing the water out around it in a huge rising bubble. The dome of glowing water expands across the water, almost reaching both banks and rising to a height were it clips one of the hovering security vehicles. The bubble bursts – releasing a cacophonic roar of sound, and suddenly it is raining on the Presidium. As the blast dies, the sounds of the screaming crowd and panicking officers begins to intrude on the howling in Shepard’s ears.

Shep: Grunt! Damnit! What have you got in there!

Grunt: (wiping water from his face, grinning proudly) I’ve got my Krant.

Out where the water is swirling to fill the space left by the exiting spray Jack appears, bobbing around in the eddies enough to be quite probably naked.

Jack: (yelling) Grunt! There’s **** all out here! Are we done?

Shepard buries his head in his hands.

Jack: Are my boots still over there? If someone steals them I’m gonna be pissed!

Bailey: Shepard, are you real fond of paperwork?

Modifié par Mondo47, 03 avril 2010 - 12:16 .

[Mkrgross]

Jackal904 wrote...

Neccrid wrote...

Personally I find Jack attractive. The tattoos make her unique.. The shaved head -- while thats not something I usually would say is attractive on a woman works astonishingly well with Jack, and those eyes.. don't even get me started with her eyes. 

Same here. I find Jack very physically attractive, and I've always hated when chicks get their head shaved. Jack is the only female from any movie, game, or real life, that I have ever thought looks good, and in fact prefer, with a shaved head. And it's not like she's Vin Diesel bald. I really like the widow's peak she's rock'n. I think it's a very important part of her look. It makes her look more feminine. And I never understood how someone could be fascinated by a person's eyes. But Jack has made me understand. Well her and Taylor Swift. Miranda has dat ass, and Jack has dem eyes.

@Mondo

Look'n forward to it .

On certain people bald can be very sexy, Natalie Portman for instance. Not everyone can pull it off. Like some girls look good with short hair and some do not. In Jack's case esspecially, you shift your focus elsewhere, like her eyes.

Which leads me to something else, if they were to find an actress to play Jack, they would have to find someone who could act with her eyes. I just watched Inglourious Basterds a few days ago and the actress who play Shosanna, Mélanie Laurent, did an excellent job doing just that, not sure how well she would look bald though, or if she cam pull off a believable American accent.

[gneissguy2003]

Once again, Mondo, well done.

[Mkrgross]

Mondo47 wrote...


The Presidium, 13:42 Station-Time…


Bailey and Shepard are sat in a C-Sec cruiser, speeding towards a location. Lights and sirens are in full effect.


<snip>

Priceless.

Modifié par Mkrgross, 03 avril 2010 - 12:20 .

[Barrendall]

Mondo47 wrote...

<snip>

Thanks Mondo that was awesome and very believable!  I'm still laughing