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[Chaos-fusion]

I have been planning on trying to play ME as Jack/Samara/Thane for a while, so thanks to you all for giving me the proverbial kick up the arse to get a start on it. I sense many screenshot opportunities. .. Assuming I can get it to work, which isn't likely given my technical aptitude and such.

Mondo47 wrote...

Jack's romance is certainly the most moving, the most engaging, and has the potential to be the most wonderful (or tragic - I don't want to tempt fate, but you all know how honest I get) thing in the entire series.

Oh, I certainly expect a tragic ending. Bioware can be a little predictable with their writing and their archetypes, so I don't have much hope. But then, maybe I'm just being cynical again.

[BobbyTheI]

So, my normal Google skills are failing me.  Anybody have a link to more info on the Coalesced modding that lets you play as other characters?

And no, I'm not going to change the model to Jack and romance Miranda, don't be silly.  I've got better things to do with my time.

...

Like change the model to Grunt, and romance Tali.

[Chaos-fusion]

If I find anything, I'll send you a link. In fact, I'd guess it's in here somewhere.

Modifié par Chaos-fusion, 07 avril 2010 - 09:47 .

[royceclemens]

Mondo47 wrote...


So (patronising head back on), next time someone goes on about Jack being a skanky lunatic who they can't wait to get offed in the Suicide Mission... their loss. They probably get more enjoyment out of shooting the monsters over the interactions of characters. And who'd want to actually romance someone like that?

Well, it depends which monsters and which characters.  I'd rather talk to Jack than shoot varren... But I'd rather snipe Eclipse mercs than talk to Miranda.

The power of the Jack romance stems, I think, from the fact that everything is never on the table with her.  It's like she's always afraid of being misquoted, hiding her intentions behind verbal sleight of hand.  It's never "I don't want you to die," it's "You wanna live, you goddamn run."  It's not  "I care about you," it's "You're weird.  That kinda gets me off."  Even when she goes up to your cabin, perched on the point of no return, she's still hedging her bets.  It's "I need..." And she never finishes the sentence.  She's so terrified of losing that she needs coaxing into enjoying herself when she finally wins.

But what truly separates Jack from every other romance option in the game is this: I wrote ina "Why Did You Pick Your LI?" thread that Jack has the deepest concern for you.  Someone argued with me that Miranda breaks out the whole " SO DON'T DIE" line.  But this illustrates the difference between the two.  Miranda doesn't want Shepard to die because that will make her sad.  Jack is willing to consign herself to a prolonged existence in her own private hell to keep you safe.

I got a ship load of people above me and all of them, from the purple space-elf to Miss PotatoHead, hoping I succeed.  But Jack is the ONLY one who doesn't want to see Shepard hurt.  If that doesn't make you feel special, I don't know what will.

Oh, and off-topic, I played the Kasumi DLC and listening to her wound-cries and battle-taunts, I think you're gonna have a field day, Bobby.

[BobbyTheI]

royceclemens wrote...

Oh, and off-topic, I played the Kasumi DLC and listening to her wound-cries and battle-taunts, I think you're gonna have a field day, Bobby.

Heh, heh.  She even comes built-in with her own suggestion of who to pair her with.  I think a certain fellow in the armory is going to very happy.

[Mondo47]

Chaos-fusion wrote...

Oh, I certainly expect a tragic ending. Bioware can be a little predictable with their writing and their archetypes, so I don't have much hope. But then, maybe I'm just being cynical again.

Hmmm...

Dear BioWare Dev Team Guys & Gals,

There really is only so many times you can kick a puppy before people get really irritated with it and call Animal Control on you or something. Come on, give Jack a break. The girl deserves a happy ending.  We know she's not Tali, so you don't have a billion screaming fanboys to appease, and there's no chance we're going to send you hate mail and possibly threaten to burn down your offices if you ignore us, but we think she's earned a break that doesn't involve getting blown up/incinerated/biotic-overloaded/spaced/shot/liquified/disintegrated/insert-ignominious-death-as-applicable. You make a character with a tragic background, giving them a tragic end is... well, it certainly reinforces the idea that there's not much to come for the unhappy in this life other than, well, more unhappy. Stuff like that makes bunny cry, as the internet says.

So, we're not demanding anything, we're just asking, nicely. Let the most unlikely fairytale princess be the princess for once. Maybe not in the sparkling ballgown and all that, but you get the idea.

Many thanks, and keep up the good work,

Everyone here in the Jack fanthread

XXX


You think that might do the trick, guys?

[adriano_c]

BobbyTheI wrote...

So, my normal Google skills are failing me.  Anybody have a link to more info on the Coalesced modding that lets you play as other characters?

And no, I'm not going to change the model to Jack and romance Miranda, don't be silly.  I've got better things to do with my time.

...

Like change the model to Grunt, and romance Tali.

me2mods.azureum.com/forums/showthread.php

Is what I've unearthed so far.

The contents of said link are well beyond me, however. I've actually recruited a friend who happens to work as the head of software design for a pretty major company to sort it out for me, lol. Should have some "interesting" screen captures to post soon enough.

[Ultai]

Good to have you back, Bobby.  Enjoy your (2nd?) temp ban?

[royceclemens]

Mondo47 wrote...

Chaos-fusion wrote...

Oh, I certainly expect a tragic ending. Bioware can be a little predictable with their writing and their archetypes, so I don't have much hope. But then, maybe I'm just being cynical again.

Hmmm...

Dear BioWare Dev Team Guys & Gals,

There really is only so many times you can kick a puppy before people get really irritated with it and call Animal Control on you or something. Come on, give Jack a break. The girl deserves a happy ending.  We know she's not Tali, so you don't have a billion screaming fanboys to appease, and there's no chance we're going to send you hate mail and possibly threaten to burn down your offices if you ignore us, but we think she's earned a break that doesn't involve getting blown up/incinerated/biotic-overloaded/spaced/shot/liquified/disintegrated/insert-ignominious-death-as-applicable. You make a character with a tragic background, giving them a tragic end is... well, it certainly reinforces the idea that there's not much to come for the unhappy in this life other than, well, more unhappy. Stuff like that makes bunny cry, as the internet says.

So, we're not demanding anything, we're just asking, nicely. Let the most unlikely fairytale princess be the princess for once. Maybe not in the sparkling ballgown and all that, but you get the idea.

Many thanks, and keep up the good work,

Everyone here in the Jack fanthread

XXX


You think that might do the trick, guys?

There are many ways this could go.  For all of them.  Because what are people going to do, complain?  Will those complaints be integrated into ME4?  Which, um... Won't exist?

If for no other reason than irony, I could see a happily ever after for Jack.  We've gone from the bottom to firmly in the middle when it comes to Jack's popularity (MOST POPULAR FEMALE LI AMONG WOMEN!  WOOT!), so I don't think there will be a huge wave of misfortune for her. 

If anything, the ones with the most to worry about are the fans of Tali and Liara.  The latter because she's apparently Captain Evil now.  The former because what with emphasis on Quarian population, do you honestly think the fleet is going to look happily on Tali walking off with a human?  If what her dad did didn't get her exiled, then THAT sure as hell will.

It feels weird to say, but... I think we're gonna be okay.

EDIT: Bobby got temp-banned?  Whatever for?

Modifié par royceclemens, 07 avril 2010 - 11:42 .

[Mondo47]

royceclemens wrote...

If for no other reason than irony, I could see a happily ever after for Jack.  We've gone from the bottom to firmly in the middle when it comes to Jack's popularity (MOST POPULAR FEMALE LI AMONG WOMEN!  WOOT!), so I don't think there will be a huge wave of misfortune for her. 

It feels weird to say, but... I think we're gonna be okay.

EDIT: Bobby got temp-banned?  Whatever for?

Bobby went picking fights with Talimancers... he forgot they were Legion, and thus many (and prone to crying off to mods about people, then screengrabbing their moaning emails and posting them in their thread)

Actually, I'd forgotten that Jack has become something of a postergirl for female gamers. They do something bad to her we can all pull the sexist pigs card on them!

Ok, I keeed, I keeed (as my favorite puppet dog says), but I really do think that it's nice that she's touched a much broader part of gamerplaying society. Bioware has always had a rep for pitching games well to both sexes in audience, it'd be nice to think that Jack is something only Bioware could do (because face it, up until now most female characters in games tend to be there to, well, provide boobie-quotient for teenage boys). Hats off to 'em. Again.

We salute the Biobods a lot here, don't we?

[Jackal904]

royceclemens wrote...

Jack is willing to consign herself to a prolonged existence in her own private hell to keep you safe.

That is a great way of putting it royce. And for someone who is all about keeping themself alive, that is very unselfish. I'd be interested to read through that thread about why people chose their LI, I'll have to check it out sometime. I wonder how many people just said, "I chose [character] because they're awesome!" and gave no explanation what-so-ever.

I would really like a happy ending with Jack. I think she deserves one for once. But if they were going to do a sad ending, then I think it should be Shepard and Jack dieing together, not either alone. Jack would be utterly crushed if she lost Shepard, and it would suck to lose Jack and still go on with the game.

Btw, good to have you back Bobby .

[exterminator_]

if Jack die - i will die simple

[Chaos-fusion]

A tragic end doesn't have to mean dying. I think it would be so much easier for Jack to just walk away from any romance with Sheperd, because it's easier to stick with what's familiar and kept her alive for however long, and all those baggage issues that is a part of that.

Mondo47 wrote...

Chaos-fusion wrote...

Oh, I certainly expect a tragic ending. Bioware can be a little predictable with their writing and their archetypes, so I don't have much hope. But then, maybe I'm just being cynical again.

Hmmm...

Dear BioWare Dev Team Guys & Gals,

*Snip*

Many thanks, and keep up the good work,

Everyone here in the Jack fanthread

XXX

You think that might do the trick, guys?

It would convince me.

[Epantiras]

Mondo47 wrote...

Hmmm...

Dear BioWare Dev Team Guys & Gals,
[...]
So, we're not demanding anything, we're just asking, nicely. Let the most unlikely fairytale princess be the princess for once. Maybe not in the sparkling ballgown and all that, but you get the idea.

Many thanks, and keep up the good work,

Everyone here in the Jack fanthread

XXX
You think that might do the trick, guys?

/signed ;-)

BTW welcome back Bobby!

[adriano_c]

Concerning character fates...

As good as Bioware is at creating and developing these endearing characters, they certainly do have a tendency to take the well-trod road when it comes to the story arcs themselves. While familiarity breeds contempt, the formula seems to be intact and working for now (I think the last 4-5 games of theirs have had the same basic cookie cutter outline). For this reason alone, I don't see them breaking any new ground.

'Jack' is the default 'dark, tragic character' for this story, so, by Bioware's design history, she'll wind up dead through either sacrifice or as a consequence of Shepard's actions. That, or wandering off into the sunset with a fate unknown. Perhaps it'll make for a good story, depending upon the details, but I'm skeptical that any emotional resonance won't be mitigated by anticipating what's to come. It's a rare story that can inspire feeling when the outcome's predetermined, unless those feelings consist of déjà vu (in Bioware's case) and disinterest. Besides, just how much misery can they pour on one character's head before it stops being tragic and instead simply trite? Also to be considered, with their taking the easy route for the character, is the fanbase. It seems very possible that 'Jack' might appeal to the type of person already well-conditioned and resigned to accepting not-so-happy endings, one that approaches the character with the foreknowledge and expectation of how it will likely run its course. Afterall, fans of 'dark' characters usually find them in 'dark' stories, I guess. This is contrary to, say, fans of 'Tali', who I think enter into their interest of the character with the, perhaps unconscious, foresight that its arc will have a happy-go-lucky, syrupy sweet conclusion. That, or a cut-scene finale involving 'Tali' throwing her wedding bouquet into a crowd, resulting in 'Dr. Chawkwas' uppercutting 'Yeoman Chambers' in her attempts to reach it.

Either way, I think Bioware thinks they'll be giving the fans what they want when writing for the third game. If it were up to me, 'Jack' gets a happy ending, simply by virtue of it being a novelty. 'Tali', no longer a virgin, and thus no longer immune to being killed (if we're following horror movie rules, lol), catches some shrapnel from an exploding 'Harbinger' after pushing Shepard out of the way. The ultimate sacrifice! Something like that!

-edit. That was certainly longer than I thought it would be.

Modifié par adriano_c, 07 avril 2010 - 03:25 .

[Epantiras]

adriano_c wrote...

Concerning character fates...

As good as Bioware is at creating and developing these endearing characters, they certainly do have a tendency to take the well-trod road when it comes to the story arcs themselves. While familiarity breeds contempt, the formula seems to be intact and working for now (I think the last 4-5 games of theirs have had the same basic cookie cutter outline). For this reason alone, I don't see them breaking any new ground.

I bet Jack will leave after the events of ME3. There will be tales of people who saw a woman who looked like her, and they said she was pregnant. WITH SHEPARD'S DEMON REAPER CHILD!

[adriano_c]

Epantiras wrote...

I bet Jack will leave after the events of ME3. There will be tales of people who saw a woman who looked like her, and they said she was pregnant. WITH SHEPARD'S DEMON REAPER CHILD!

That, or they pull a page out of Viconia's book (BG2's 'dark' character).

[Epantiras]

adriano_c wrote...

Epantiras wrote...

I bet Jack will leave after the events of ME3. There will be tales of people who saw a woman who looked like her, and they said she was pregnant. WITH SHEPARD'S DEMON REAPER CHILD!

That, or they pull a page out of Viconia's book (BG2's 'dark' character).

Oh noes, that would be very mean! BTW remember there's someone here on the Jack thread who asked to avoid Baldur's Gate spoilers!

[royceclemens]

adriano_c wrote...

Concerning character fates...

As good as Bioware is at creating and developing these endearing characters, they certainly do have a tendency to take the well-trod road when it comes to the story arcs themselves. While familiarity breeds contempt, the formula seems to be intact and working for now (I think the last 4-5 games of theirs have had the same basic cookie cutter outline). For this reason alone, I don't see them breaking any new ground.

'Jack' is the default 'dark, tragic character' for this story, so, by Bioware's design history, she'll wind up dead through either sacrifice or as a consequence of Shepard's actions. That, or wandering off into the sunset with a fate unknown. Perhaps it'll make for a good story, depending upon the details, but I'm skeptical that any emotional resonance won't be mitigated by anticipating what's to come. It's a rare story that can inspire feeling when the outcome's predetermined, unless those feelings consist of déjà vu (in Bioware's case) and disinterest. Besides, just how much misery can they pour on one character's head before it stops being tragic and instead simply trite? Also to be considered, with their taking the easy route for the character, is the fanbase. It seems very possible that 'Jack' might appeal to the type of person already well-conditioned and resigned to accepting not-so-happy endings, one that approaches the character with the foreknowledge and expectation of how it will likely run its course. Afterall, fans of 'dark' characters usually find them in 'dark' stories, I guess. This is contrary to, say, fans of 'Tali', who I think enter into their interest of the character with the, perhaps unconscious, foresight that its arc will have a happy-go-lucky, syrupy sweet conclusion. That, or a cut-scene finale involving 'Tali' throwing her wedding bouquet into a crowd, resulting in 'Dr. Chawkwas' uppercutting 'Yeoman Chambers' in her attempts to reach it.

Either way, I think Bioware thinks they'll be giving the fans what they want when writing for the third game. If it were up to me, 'Jack' gets a happy ending, simply by virtue of it being a novelty. 'Tali', no longer a virgin, and thus no longer immune to being killed (if we're following horror movie rules, lol), catches some shrapnel from an exploding 'Harbinger' after pushing Shepard out of the way. The ultimate sacrifice! Something like that!

-edit. That was certainly longer than I thought it would be.

Maybe we're looking at this the wrong way.  The ME games were conceived as a trilogy, of which the overriding theme was choice.  Choices that would carry over three titles.  To wrench the reins from us that harshly would be out of character for this franchise.  If a character does or does not die, it may be as a result of choices we did or did not make.  Up to this point, no one on our squad over the course of either game has pulled a Sagacious Zu and died unless we screwed up or chose someone else over them.  Hell, even in DA:O, you could keep everyone alive and in-party until the end of the game.  You had to compromise your morals to do it, but the point still stands.

Killed the rachni queen?  Then there's no one to defend the Fleet from a surprise Reaper attack.  Goodbye, Tali.

Did you let Miranda kill Niket?  Is there a Mrs. Niket?  Does Mrs. Niket have a gun?  Goodbye, Miranda.

Did you destroy the Collector Base?  Then a TIM-approved Reaper might have been the only thing standing between the Reapers and destroying the planet that Jack was on.  Goodbye, Jack.

I wouldn't put it past BioWare to invoke plot over all things, but wouldn't it be easier for them at this point to set it up so that we've been digging our own graves since November of 2007?  If Jack dies, isn't it at least conceivable that we will have been the triggermen?

EDIT: Thank you, Epantiras.  But I already had that one spoiled for me a week ago on another thread.  Looks like it's Jaheira for me when the BG box set comes in the mail.

Modifié par royceclemens, 07 avril 2010 - 04:06 .

[adriano_c]

royceclemens wrote...

Maybe we're looking at this the wrong way.  The ME games were conceived as a trilogy, of which the overriding theme was choice.  Choices that would carry over three titles.  To wrench the reins from us that harshly would be out of character for this franchise.  If a character does or does not die, it may be as a result of choices we did or did not make.  Up to this point, no one on our squad over the course of either game has pulled a Sagacious Zu and died unless we screwed up or chose someone else over them.  Hell, even in DA:O, you could keep everyone alive and in-party until the end of the game.  You had to compromise your morals to do it, but the point still stands.

Killed the rachni queen?  Then there's no one to defend the Fleet from a surprise Reaper attack.  Goodbye, Tali.

Did you let Miranda kill Niket?  Is there a Mrs. Niket?  Does Mrs. Niket have a gun?  Goodbye, Miranda.

Did you destroy the Collector Base?  Then a TIM-approved Reaper might have been the only thing standing between the Reapers and destroying the planet that Jack was on.  Goodbye, Jack.

I wouldn't put it past BioWare to invoke plot over all things, but wouldn't it be easier for them at this point to set it up so that we've been digging our own graves since November of 2007?  If Jack dies, isn't it at least conceivable that we will have been the triggermen?

EDIT: Thank you, Epantiras.  But I already had that one spoiled for me a week ago on another thread.  Looks like it's Jaheira for me when the BG box set comes in the mail.

Good points, and thus far, you're right that player choice has been meaningful in regard to keeping certain party members alive (Wrex and Kaiden/Ashley from the first game, plus those relating to ship upgrades in the second). Maybe I'm just a pessimist at heart, but I'm still very much expecting epilogue text with a certain flavour regardless of decisions made.

[royceclemens]

I honestly don't really give a rat's sweet hinder about epilogues, to be quite honest. They could have a static text screen saying that Jack went on to keep little kids out of the tiger pen at the San Diego zoo, or went insane and threw cow turds at cars from the rest of her life, but because I didn't see it and didn't play it, there's a fundamental disconnect and it didn't really happen. If I make it out of the game proper with her, I'll be cool.

[Mondo47]

Actually, that would work...

That frontier-colony western story concept of mine... Jack walks away, becomes someone new on some fringe colony, evolves into the local crazy cat-lady who just happens to know a lot of distinctly odd things (like bypassing security systems, use of explosives, etc.) and likes making things levitate for kids (naturally the local puritanical types will hate her guts because she teaches impressionable youngsters self-reliance and self-determinism), then the Batarians show up, and before you can say "kidnapped child labour" she's back to her old self, ripping people new ones and using cutscene power to the max to show the Squints no-one ****s with her colony. Saves the day, kills a lot of bad guys, then realises that she shouldn't have walked away, and that she should get Shepard back (or at the very least try - better to find out he's moved on and close the book for good than never know), and off she walks into the sunset, to find that man who changed her forever...

Damn, that would be good. Bit like the 'Salvation' arc in the Preacher books (I always thought that series was a bit too wee-wees and poo-poos to take seriously, and it was 98% aimed at teenage lads who giggled at crude humour and OTT gore, but that story arc was brilliant)... this **** writes itself some afternoons, I tell you...

[Booglarize]

 

royceclemens wrote...

EDIT: Thank you, Epantiras.  But I already had that one spoiled for me a week ago on another thread.  Looks like it's Jaheira for me when the BG box set comes in the mail.

A quick word of advice - the Jaheira romance plot is easily the toughest of the three, not just because it's long but also because it's a little prone to bugging out. Unlike the others, it's tied to a number of somewhat independent plot events, and can get messed up if they don't trigger properly or trigger out of the intended sequence. 

Just make sure you get the latest patch before you start, keep plenty of save games in different slots, and pray for the best.

Getting back on topic though - I wouldn't particularly mind if BioWare 'pulls a Viconia' on us with Jack. The most important thing for me is not that the story necessarily ends happily - just that it's well-written. The BGII/ToB companion stories (even the non-romances), regardless of how happy they were, were well-written and meaningful and really gave the feeling of having closed each story on the proper note regardless of what choices you made.

A good example of what not to do, I think, is something like Dragon Age: Awakening where they kind of just threw something together at the end as a means of compensating for things that should've been addressed in the actual game to begin with. It was sloppy writing and just didn't work at all. 

Modifié par Booglarize, 07 avril 2010 - 05:24 .

[Pacifien]

So I probably won't be too popular for saying it, but I think a Jack/Shepard relationship wouldn't last. I don't think it has to end in a bad way, but for Shepard, it will always be the mission first. The best he gave Jack was a demonstration in trust, which she can take with her in her future adventures. She's trusted Shepard, now who else will she let herself trust?

[royceclemens]

But whatever happens, I hope we all make promises to ourselves that we won't take it personally. That we won't feel that they just slighted us because they could and the people at BioWare are mean and hate us.



Have, um... Have you seen the last ten pages of the Liara thread after the comic wrapped up? First, it's hilarious, and second, I hope we don't turn into that if BioWare completely Josses us and goes their own way.