20813 réponses à ce sujet

[Booglarize]

 

Mkrgross wrote...

Another point is so far the things BW has listened to the community on have no real bearing on the story. So it will not be surprising to see them kill off characters we love for sake of story.

You know, I don't think we should be upset if they do end up killing someone we like... if the way they carry it out actually makes good artistic sense, and doesn't come across as gimmicky or just done for shock value. In fact, I think I'd actually prefer that than if they go down a "happily ever after" route that turns out to be lame and cheesy. 

In the end, when the dust settles on our infatuation with this character (and it will, eventually) the thing that we'll look back at is isn't how happy the story was, but how good the story was - and those aren't always the same thing. Which isn't to say that happy endings are necessarily lame - simply that the best approach for BioWare (I think) would be to generally put story and narrative first. 

[Ultai]

Booglarize wrote...


In the end, when the dust settles on our infatuation with this character (and it will, eventually) the thing that we'll look back at is isn't how happy the story was, but how good the story was - and those aren't always the same thing. Which isn't to say that happy endings are necessarily lame - simply that the best approach for BioWare (I think) would be to generally put story and narrative first. 

Agreed.  I like Jack the most, but then again I like all the squadmates, even Jacob.  He seems the kind of guy where you can go to get a "normal" perspective on things.  Just his romance writing was...well...yea...and everything he can do Grunt can do better for the most part. 

But at the end of the day, I'd rather not it all turn into Sim Effect where some forum goers seem to entertain the idea a bit too much, but that doesn't mean the romance part of the game and friendship dialog options (yea Garrus, I'm looking at you) could use a bit more oomph and tweaking. Man I hope squad banter gets some love.

A part of me can understand what they did with the ME1 LI's, story and narrative probably came first...at the dismay of the fans.  If that's what happens with Jack, that's BW's choice...but I'm sure I'd still be pissed if it ended up cheesy.

Addendum: Seems Kasumi is performing well against the juggernaut of Tali, at the time I post this anyways. social.bioware.com/877398/polls/4380/

Modifié par Ultai, 08 avril 2010 - 03:34 .

[Ilzairspar]

Ultai wrote...


Addendum: Seems Kasumi is performing well against the juggernaut of Tali, at the time I post this anyways. social.bioware.com/877398/polls/4380/

I have to admit, she has become my second favorite charater now after Jack.

[adriano_c]

Ultai wrote...

Agreed.  I like Jack the most, but then again I like all the squadmates, even Jacob.  He seems the kind of guy where you can go to get a "normal" perspective on things.  Just his romance writing was...well...yea...and everything he can do Grunt can do better for the most part.

Jacob was an interesting case, in a way. I think it's pretty clear that when they were designing him the goal was for a somewhat likable 'everyman', relatively grounded and normal, helping to accentuate just how outlandish and, well, 'alien', some of his shipmates are. The trouble in his case, and I think people are mostly in agreement on this, is that they overshot their aim of 'normalcy' to the extent that it just comes across as dull. Instead of connecting with him, putting ourselves in his shoes and such, he actually might be driving people away and making them like other characters even more. Even his loyalty mission seemed to ignore him, instead opting for his more interesting father's antics. Speaking of which, considering the potential to choose between Samara and Morinth, I'm surprised that they didn't give us something similar with Jacob and the old man. A twisted megalomaniac in charge of arms on the Normandy? Maybe!

Oh, concerning Jacob's romance story. I had been seeing a lot of references to an apparent line of his about a "priiiize", so I finally looked it up on youtube to see what's what. Wow. How disturbing and uncomfortable was that? To me, it felt like I was watching some sleazy made-for-TV movie and I had to close it, lol.

[Jackal904]

royceclemens wrote...

I'm more concerned with what happens next, as opposed to what already happened off-screen which, if it was really important, would be in the game already. What happens next would be much, much harder to screw up, as Jack is so defined and yet her motivations are in a state of change.

Yeah, as much as I'm interested in her backstory, I'm more anxious to see what happens next with her. There's so many different things that can happen with her. Finding out what happens with Jack is a big part of my anxiousness to play ME3.  "Yeah yeah reapers destroying the galaxy whatever. So what happens with Jack?"

Ilzairspar wrote...

Ultai wrote...


Addendum: Seems Kasumi is performing well against the juggernaut of Tali, at the time I post this anyways. social.bioware.com/877398/polls/4380/

I have to admit, she has become my second favorite charater now after Jack.

Same here. Jack is still light years ahead of her and everyone else in my book, but I really like Kasumi. She's got a fun and happy-go-lucky personality. Pretty much the opposite of Jack lol.

Modifié par Jackal904, 08 avril 2010 - 03:54 .

[Ultai]

Ilzairspar wrote...

I have to admit, she has become my second favorite charater now after Jack.

I'll have to do a full playthrough with her soon since I just loaded up a complete game with my infiltrator and did her mission, but I like what I've seen so far (both cloaking at the same time is fun).  Hmm...we can have up to 3 combat drones in battle if you're an engineer with Legion and Tali...if only Thane's loyalty power was some ability that involved cloaking as well instead of shredder ammo.  Battles would be pretty interesting (if not easy mode) with the 3 of us cloaking all the time.

[Neccrid]

But the Priiiiiize..



Wow havent laughed so hard in a while. Might be factored due to a few energy drinks and sleep deprivation. But wow.. too funny man.

[adriano_c]

Just saw the Jacob scene as well?

[Mondo47]

royceclemens wrote...

I dunno, personally I'm a little ambivalent on whether or not Jack's backstory should come out. I kinda get upset when a story shoehorns in a ton if exposition for just one character, because that's basically waiting out the clock, making the story arbitrarily longer. If Jack point-blank told me that her past wasn't any of her Goddamned business, I'd accept it and move on.

I'm more concerned with what happens next, as opposed to what already happened off-screen which, if it was really important, would be in the game already. What happens next would be much, much harder to screw up, as Jack is so defined and yet her motivations are in a state of change.

I'm with Uncle Royce on this one. Personally, no matter how compelling and interesting knowing Jack's past might be, I for one do not want to see her go through half of the things we know she's endured. No matter how much it made her the character she is, it'd just wring my guts out to have to experience Jack's story in full. It's better we just know bad things happened and we never see them.

To write an 'Illustrated Man' for Jack would be just overblown and in the end worthless. To see all the light inside a character getting mired under tons of ****, just to see how they got to where they are in the here and now is, while certainly an experience, nowhere near as fulfilling as seeing the layers of **** come off and seeing the light in there still shining. It's why episodes 1, 2 and 3 of the Star Wars saga seem like pushing a bowling ball for miles with your nose. We never really wanted to see how Darth Vader became Darth Vader, we wanted to see him become Luke's father again; we wanted to see how that kick in the guts "I AM your father," becomes something poignant, and how that admission isn't just a head**** for the hero, it's someone throwing out a lifeline to someone he loves. Love, from a story's murderous genocidal madman - that's why it ****ing works so well. It makes him like us. And we get the ultimate payoff that the story's biggest villain can save the day and that the lifeline was for himself too. God, I said something good about "The Saga"... and I ****ing hate those movies...

I think that as much as we'd like to know more about our girl (because that's almost what she's become; a queer sort of surrogate imaginary daughter we'll get a kick out of seeing something good happen to... this projection of ours is disturbingly wholesome), we'd much rather see who she turns into. Kinda fits the projection, doesn't it? Wanting to see your kids achive their dreams and hopes. Have adventures... become new people. Maybe learning a snippet here or there as part of a journey to somewhere new, sure, but the whole thing would be like trying to eat a 17-course Chinese banquet by yourself - uncomfortable and ultimately messy.

adriano_c wrote...

Oh, concerning Jacob's romance story. I had been seeing a lot of references to an apparent line of his about a "priiiize", so I finally looked it up on youtube to see what's what. Wow. How disturbing and uncomfortable was that? To me, it felt like I was watching some sleazy made-for-TV movie and I had to close it, lol.

I keep having to get up and defend the guy... some men are ****ing clueless as to how the **** that comes out of their mouths sounds. All he's trying to say is he's putting himself out there and risking getting blown out, but the "priiiize" is worth the risk. All it is is a cheesy, testosterone-overloaded version of what Garrus does. Or Jack for that matter. Hell, most of the love interests come to Shep somewhat doubtful of how they'll be received. Jacob's line is just 100% pure Bloke - you can either let it slide or get hung up on it.

Trust me, I've heard some real-life classics over the years, and hell, it's not just men that do it. Some women spout some doozeys in an attempt to get intimate with someone, or to say something cute and sexy that ends up settling on the ears like pissing razor blades settles on the bladder. At the end of the day, he's kinda hot and he's at least built like a man, while Kaidan is built like a boy. Definate case of wheeling out a painful line of your own, Femme-Shep... something along the lines of "Shut up and start licking."

[Firmijn]

maybe, after next week I shall try the Kasumi DLC, with all that positive comments on it Im really getting interested

[adriano_c]

Mondo47 wrote...

I keep having to get up and defend the guy... some men are ****ing clueless as to how the **** that comes out of their mouths sounds. All he's trying to say is he's putting himself out there and risking getting blown out, but the "priiiize" is worth the risk. All it is is a cheesy, testosterone-overloaded version of what Garrus does. Or Jack for that matter. Hell, most of the love interests come to Shep somewhat doubtful of how they'll be received. Jacob's line is just 100% pure Bloke - you can either let it slide or get hung up on it.

Trust me, I've heard some real-life classics over the years, and hell, it's not just men that do it. Some women spout some doozeys in an attempt to get intimate with someone, or to say something cute and sexy that ends up settling on the ears like pissing razor blades settles on the bladder. At the end of the day, he's kinda hot and he's at least built like a man, while Kaidan is built like a boy. Definate case of wheeling out a painful line of your own, Femme-Shep... something along the lines of "Shut up and start licking."

To be fair, I was referring to the scene in its entirety as being unsettlingly tacky, not just his line about "the priiiize". Although, rewatching it in the midst of typing this, I think his inflection and line delivery are what really killed this for me. In the rest of the game, I'd say his voicework was well done, but this was an abomination.

"Shepard...look at thiiiiiiiiiissss..."

"I want all the time I can get...win...................lose..................................it doesn't matter.......................I want....you........."

*cue cheesy  music*

-edit. It's as if the voice actor suddenly pulled out his best William Shatner-******-Barry White impression!

Modifié par adriano_c, 08 avril 2010 - 08:47 .

[Mondo47]

adriano_c wrote...

To be fair, I was referring to the scene in its entirety as being unsettlingly tacky, not just his line about "the priiiize". Although, rewatching it in the midst of typing this, I think his inflection and line delivery are what really killed this for me. In the rest of the game, I'd say his voicework was well done, but this was an abomination.

"Shepard...look at thiiiiiiiiiissss..."

"I want all the time I can get...win...................lose..................................it doesn't matter.......................I want....you........."

*cue cheesy  music*

Ah, Jacob... I knew those dating advice extranet sites would get the better of you

[BobbyTheI]

Mondo47 wrote...

Trust me, I've heard some real-life classics over the years, and hell, it's not just men that do it. Some women spout some doozeys in an attempt to get intimate with someone, or to say something cute and sexy that ends up settling on the ears like pissing razor blades settles on the bladder. At the end of the day, he's kinda hot and he's at least built like a man, while Kaidan is built like a boy. Definate case of wheeling out a painful line of your own, Femme-Shep... something along the lines of "Shut up and start licking."

Or perhaps, "It's turkey time.  Gobble, gobble."

(Oh, Kevin, Kevin, how far you've fallen.  Yeah, Kevin Smith didn't actually do Gigli, but it just reminded me of Jersey Girl, and then Cop Out, and oh, the depression sank in.)

Modifié par BobbyTheI, 08 avril 2010 - 09:03 .

[royceclemens]

Mondo47 wrote...

I think that as much as we'd like to know more about our girl (because that's almost what she's become; a queer sort of surrogate imaginary daughter we'll get a kick out of seeing something good happen to... this projection of ours is disturbingly wholesome), we'd much rather see who she turns into.

I've been thinking the same thing as of late.  C'mon, if Tali gets a hug interrupt, then can't Jack have a warm-blanket-and-bowl-of-soup interrupt?  Those two things make everything better.

[Mondo47]

BobbyTheI wrote...

Mondo47 wrote...

Trust me, I've heard some real-life classics over the years, and hell, it's not just men that do it. Some women spout some doozeys in an attempt to get intimate with someone, or to say something cute and sexy that ends up settling on the ears like pissing razor blades settles on the bladder. At the end of the day, he's kinda hot and he's at least built like a man, while Kaidan is built like a boy. Definate case of wheeling out a painful line of your own, Femme-Shep... something along the lines of "Shut up and start licking."

Or perhaps, "It's turkey time.  Gobble, gobble."

(Oh, Kevin, Kevin, how far you've fallen.  Yeah, Kevin Smith didn't actually do Gigli, but it just reminded me of Jersey Girl, and then Cop Out, and oh, the depression sank in.)

I might be the only person in the world to say this, but I liked Jersey Girl. Ok, it was mainly for George Carlin's brilliant grouchy takes-no-**** dad. It was a movie made by a guy going through the first part of his having-kids transformation if you ask me. Kids do funny things to you. They warp you in fantastic ways; you suddenly start toting pictures of them around with you and you show them to anyone at a moment's notice, you tell pithy stories about the first time they pissed on the floor like they just won a Nobel prize, and you cry at things you never used to cry at before. A lot. It changes you for a while, in fact, sometimes it changes you forever. I always saw that as being why Kev's movies changed. It's not a bad thing though... ok, we lose out, but he gains. Can't be mad about that

Plus... Liv Tyler in that pageboy wig at the end... it's about as close to a genuine perversion as I get; beautiful girls dressed up as boys. Rawwwwrrrrrr!

[BobbyTheI]

Mondo47 wrote...

I might be the only person in the world to say this, but I liked Jersey Girl. Ok, it was mainly for George Carlin's brilliant grouchy takes-no-**** dad. It was a movie made by a guy going through the first part of his having-kids transformation if you ask me. Kids do funny things to you. They warp you in fantastic ways; you suddenly start toting pictures of them around with you and you show them to anyone at a moment's notice, you tell pithy stories about the first time they pissed on the floor like they just won a Nobel prize, and you cry at things you never used to cry at before. A lot. It changes you for a while, in fact, sometimes it changes you forever. I always saw that as being why Kev's movies changed. It's not a bad thing though... ok, we lose out, but he gains. Can't be mad about that

Plus... Liv Tyler in that pageboy wig at the end... it's about as close to a genuine perversion as I get; beautiful girls dressed up as boys. Rawwwwrrrrrr!

I wouldn't say it was bad, but it really marked the point where Kevin Smith started his slow, painful decline.  (Although you could point to Jay & Silent Bob Strike Back too, I suppose, but I liken that one to Mallrats: not high-art, but enough laughs to carry it.)  Clerks 2 was meh, and I thought I liked Zach and Miri after I first saw it, but thinking back on it, it really was kinda lame.  And now we've reached Cop Out, and Kevin saying, "Oh, the critics should be paying to see my movies if they're not going to say nice things about them."  As if they're just "out to get him," and all the good reviews for stuff like Chasing Amy were just flukes.  It reminds me of going to see "Dracula: Dead and Loving It," and witnessing what was once one of my favorite comedy directors flailing around, with absolutely no idea about what made his movies good in the first place.  Sad.

And to make this post partly about Jack, an interview with Casey Hudson here, where he talks about how they specifically designed Jack to be off-putting to casual players, but a reward to those who stick with her.

Oh, and he lamely tries to defend the Miranda ass-shot.  Between this and the whole, "We don't have homosexuals in ME2, and here's our roundabout way of not answering why," it's double-talk season for BioWare developers this past week.

[Mondo47]

BobbyTheI wrote...

And to make this post partly about Jack, an interview with Casey Hudson here, where he talks about how they specifically designed Jack to be off-putting to casual players, but a reward to those who stick with her.

Oh, and he lamely tries to defend the Miranda ass-shot.  Between this and the whole, "We don't have homosexuals in ME2, and here's our roundabout way of not answering why," it's double-talk season for BioWare developers this past week.

I don't know why no-one ever has the balls to stand up and just tell the ****ing truth; they have to be poorly evasive as though they're terrified of stepping on people's toes. Man up, you pansies! I don't think anyone in the world would be mortified if the answers were something like:

On the lack of same-sex relationships in ME2:

"Well, as people know, we did contemplate it in the first game, but I'm afraid that there are still some people in the world that are so ****ed up that stuff like this matters to them to such extents as they get all up in your face about you potentially corrupting the young or exposing kids to all kinds of depravity or just highlighting ethics they don't agree with. It might seem cowardly to you, but at the end of the day it's eay easier to slip those things in in small amounts under the radar instead of saying "Check out our gay space hero adventure game!" and dealing with the nuclear winter of controversy we'd have to survive afterwards. Some people are intolerant, and it's there right to be (no matter how dumb it frankly is), but at the end of the day we're a business that doesn't need that flack. Remember the whole FOX thing over the first game's couple of seconds of ass and sideboob... do we want that **** again? No thanks. We're too grown up for it, even if they aren't."

On the Miranda Ass-Shot and Jack's Nipple Halter:

"Hey, boobs and ass are great. Deal with it. Male, female, gay, straight - we like looking at human bodies. Do I need to draw you a diagram? You might want to argue the politically correct line or the sexism line, but we still go for the same things visually as a species. These characters are there to engage you emotionally and visually. Miranda's a genetically-engineered sex bomb, and Jack is a 22nd century Suicide Girl pinup. Denying it is like me saying I get to work in the morning by flapping my arms and flying... a little futile, and you're just not going to believe me in the end. Cuts both ways though - I'm not going to believe you if you say you don't like looking at a hot guy in a tight outfit. Case closed."

I think there's probably a good reason I'll never work in PR

[Errol Dnamyx]

Yeah, too many people can´t handle the truth.

[Chaos-fusion]

There is no defending that arse shot. It's as shallow as it seems, because that's Miranda main thing.

Mondo47 wrote...
I think there's probably a good reason I'll never work in PR

Are you kidding? I would love some blunt honesty in marketing. And politics for that matter. All this messing around is unecessary bull.. Ack, it makes my head spin. Ah, I feel an impending rant, so I'll mooch off this way..

After some screenshots of my "Play as Jack" thing - I had to shrink my Femshep's head, so she now looks like a mop - and there's got to be a better way to do this (I just messed around with the things the tools I used came with) but from my 15 minutes earlier;





Of course,  there are issues on the armour loadout screen;





But with luck, I'll sort through everything and get it working better. :happy:

Modifié par Chaos-fusion, 08 avril 2010 - 10:30 .

[royceclemens]

BobbyTheI wrote...

And to make this post partly about Jack, an interview with Casey Hudson here, where he talks about how they specifically designed Jack to be off-putting to casual players, but a reward to those who stick with her.

Off-topic, but there's linked interview there too with the BioWare docs where one of them calls ME2 point-blank a "shooter."

Now I don't care about this "Is Mass Effect 2 an RPG?' argument (well, I do, and even trolled one of the threads here to that effect), but there was a term a few years back called "action RPG."  Did they throw away that term when I wasn't looking?  Is that one not acceptable anymore, as there must now be action games and RPGS and  NEVER THE TWAIN SHALL MEET?

What in Christ's name is this argument supposed to prove, anyhow?  What's it suposed to accomplish?  Is it about shelf placement?  Is it a "Do I place this game with my Final Fantasy collection or my Gears of War Collectors Editions?" thing?  And here I was organizing my games alphabetically by console.  Whst a fool I've been!

But kudos to Hudson re: Jack on saying "If it burns that means it's working," basically inviting all those who hate Jack to feast on his shiny Canadian daddybags.  Bless you Hudson, and may the Oilers win the Stanley Cup. 

[Mondo47]

Chaos-fusion wrote...

After some screenshots of my "Play as Jack" thing - I had to shrink my Femshep's head, so she now looks like a mop - and there's got to be a better way to do this (I just messed around with the things the tools I used came with) but from my 15 minutes earlier;




Of course,  there are issues on the armour loadout screen;




But with luck, I'll sort through everything and get it working better. :happy:

That top one is brilliant... poor Baratian looks like he's filling his pants. Needs a gun pressed up under his chin though.

"You know, I can tell when people are lying to me... maybe I should just blow your worthless Squint head off right ****ing now, huh? NOW TELL ME WHAT I WANT TO ****ING KNOW!"

As for that bottom one... zomg, it's The Thing!

[Ultai]

Oh man, I might have to fire up a renegade femshep thanks to those pics. I'll have to look up how to switch the textures and such.

[Chaos-fusion]

Mondo47 wrote...

That top one is brilliant... poor Baratian looks like he's filling his pants. Needs a gun pressed up under his chin though.

"You know, I can tell when people are lying to me... maybe I should just blow your worthless Squint head off right ****ing now, huh? NOW TELL ME WHAT I WANT TO ****ING KNOW!"

As for that bottom one... zomg, it's The Thing!

I find these things rediculously amusing (I need to grow up, it's true), so my chest aches from all the laughing. It's hard to get one of Jack looking like Jack, because she sometimes gets extra eyebrows from my Femshep's face (I think) or her eyes float off (Not this bad, thankfully ). But the armour screen does set their face to have a horrible grimaced expression. Jack and Miranda look great with it.

Modifié par Chaos-fusion, 08 avril 2010 - 10:42 .

[Chaos-fusion]

I am well in the realm of thinking that art is better if poorly drawn, but conveys feeling and character, whereas technically fantastic art with no emotion is boring.

What the heck does this have to do with Jack? Well, I am trying to do some fanart, and I am trying to find a way to portray Jack and what she is. So, I have a question; What is one line that Jack says that sums her up to you? Something that sums up her character, and attitude, while still being concise. eg: Samara is easy, she has poise, elegence. "By the code, I will seerve you Sheperd" fits her well.

It's easy for me to draw what Samara is. Jack is, as always, difficult to deal with.

Modifié par Chaos-fusion, 08 avril 2010 - 12:09 .

[royceclemens]

What line best sums up Jack? I may be in the minority, but...



"F**K OFF!"