20813 réponses à ce sujet

[sm00thie88]

So there is something I really need some opinions, because maybe I'm blinded by the light of "jackomanie" so truth is unseen.



So as we play an RPG, which includes a healthy potion of identifying and involving with the actions your character is performing, there is something I can't get out of my head.

The responsibility which comes along when romancing Jack. Why? Because she is, sadly of course, a broken character. Shattered, bleed out. But you can give her back hope and can try to lighten her up, actually this is your task as her partner. So after me2 and probably after me3 there will be a lot of work, a lot of ups and downs you need to go threw when beeing with Jack. Because I think bumping her would burst her, open up the wounds you recently closed and mess her up - totally, finally, sadly.



So this leads me to the conclusion, that Jack is the most mature/grown up (which attribute you prefer) romance, because it's not just a quick shot, this is a ****i*g lifelong connection of sharing, giving and taking.



What do you think about that?

[adriano_c]

Ray Joel Oh wrote...

I just had to stop in and say I fugging love your avatar.

Thanks. When I saw the original picture, I knew I had to use it. Immediately.

sm00thie88 wrote...

So there is something I really need some opinions, because maybe I'm blinded by the light of "jackomanie" so
truth is unseen.

So as we play an RPG, which includes a healthy potion of identifying and involving with the actions your character is
performing, there is something I can't get out of my head. The responsibility which comes along when romancing Jack. Why? Because she is, sadly of course, a broken character. Shattered, bleed out. But you can give her back hope and can try to lighten her up, actually this is your task as her partner. So after me2 and probably after me3 there will be a lot of work, a lot of ups and downs you need to go threw when beeing with Jack. Because I think bumping her would burst her, open up the wounds you recently closed and mess her up - totally, finally, sadly.

So this leads me to the conclusion, that Jack is the most mature/grown up (which attribute you prefer) romance, because it's not just a quick shot, this is a ****i*g lifelong connection of sharing, giving and taking.

What do you think about that?

Well, it certainly isn't the most lighthearted of the three possible, considering character backgrounds. The other two stories, I see as rather abrupt and out of the blue. Neither is very "emotionally challenging" in my opinion, and seem rather casual (Miranda) and carefree (Tali). Not much investment required.

Modifié par adriano_c, 13 avril 2010 - 06:49 .

[sm00thie88]

yorkj86 wrote...

I don't think it must necessarily be a permanent and final pairing.  I don't think their deep connection implies that they're soul-mates, but, along the same lines, I don't think Jack would ever forget Shepard, if she were to leave him, for one reason or another.  By that I mean, if Shepard's super-Captain-Kirk-esque love-therapy worked its magic on Jack, and she became fully "mended", and then she moved on to someone else, she would never forget what Shepard did for her.

But, of course, as a Jackolyte, I want to see her and Shepard together for a long, long time.

I see your point. But I didn't want to imply that Shepards love cures Jack, it doesn't. But it can help her to get help and steer her in the right direction. Hm well I don't know, maybe I'm putting too much in the opening up of her, since I don't know if she did that earlier with someone else. But IF your the first one, seriously, wouldn't she break if you left her or you get seperated. Or is she really that though to get over it. On the other hand side, if she is why does she even open up, would not make sense.

Hm...

[sm00thie88]

yorkj86 wrote...

She likely opened up for Murtock.  They would probably still be together if the incident with the Batarians hadn't happened.  But he's dead, and I think the way she describes him as having "used" her is just a defense mechanism she uses to help distance herself from the pain of her memories of him, of being with him.  She uses the word "used" a lot, and we don't know all of the different meanings she attaches to that word.

After Murtock, she turned out alright, whatever that means for Jack, but if she were to lose Shepard, that's just more anguish added to the pile.  I think she can break, as tough as I want to believe Jack is.

That's a point. So we don't know what kind of relationship that was. Two possibilities why she uses the term "used" so often when talking about him:

a) He really ab"used" her in all kind of ways, it kinda sounds like this when she talks about how he used her biotics, sex and all that. Maybe that's why a passionate person like Jack didn't slay any batharians to get revenge, maybe she didn't because she figured out "it was his fault" (as she says in the dialogue) and that he didn't deserve better.

She doesn't want to admit opening up to people, doesn't want to admit she has needs aswell. So she twists around her own memories instead of remembering them in a good way and she can deal better if people done her wrong in the past - since she was a child.

With this two given options, a) would mean shepard really is special to her and it would break her if she looses him, would mean that shepard is special aswell, but she would get over seperation or equal scenarious.

But from the dialogue, option one seems to be more likely which means shepard has a huge responsibility when beeing in a relationship with her - which makes it imo even more interesting, deep and Jack more adorable.

Modifié par sm00thie88, 13 avril 2010 - 07:08 .

[Mondo47]

sm00thie88 wrote...

So there is something I really need some opinions, because maybe I'm blinded by the light of "jackomanie" so truth is unseen.

So as we play an RPG, which includes a healthy potion of identifying and involving with the actions your character is performing, there is something I can't get out of my head.
The responsibility which comes along when romancing Jack. Why? Because she is, sadly of course, a broken character. Shattered, bleed out. But you can give her back hope and can try to lighten her up, actually this is your task as her partner. So after me2 and probably after me3 there will be a lot of work, a lot of ups and downs you need to go threw when beeing with Jack. Because I think bumping her would burst her, open up the wounds you recently closed and mess her up - totally, finally, sadly.

So this leads me to the conclusion, that Jack is the most mature/grown up (which attribute you prefer) romance, because it's not just a quick shot, this is a ****i*g lifelong connection of sharing, giving and taking.

What do you think about that?

I wouldn't disagree at the point of Jack being/becoming a deep responsibility to the player. One of the things I've said from the very beginning is that Jack, moreso than any other character, needs love. Every other character will survive without it, because eventually they'll find it with someone. Jack is circling the drain, though; if something doesn't change in her life, this cancer inside her will just swallow her up and she would likely just die some unmourned, ignominious death somewhere in the galaxy-at-large. Someone willing to love her for who she is, be it platonic or romantic love, is the only potential cure for this.

Without someone to tell her they accept her for who she is, despite her past and regardless of her traumas, Jack won't get out of her self-defensive circle. This construct of hers to protect her from anything that can harm her, is actually the one thing most likely to kill her in the end. She's like a wild animal in a cage, but she built the prison herself to stop the horrors inflicted on her over the years happening again. With each moment of trust she has gathered from others (and each following betrayal) the prison has grown bigger and bigger to the point where someone trying to reach the Jack inside has to use bait, a wrecking ball and plastic explosive where words would do the job with any other person. And once she is out of the cage, naked and vulnerable to the world as that little girl on Pragia was, whoever has coaxed her out has to live with the consequences; if they hurt her intentionally, they're signing their own death warrant, and if they don't protect her from herself or the ups and downs of life they risk her retreating back into her armoured shell.

Jack needs a family if you ask me; someone as patient and kind as a mother, as accepting and equal as a sister, and someone who can make her feel as happy, safe and content as a lover. Jack needs to love herself too, and yeah, I guess a lover can teach her that too. She's a damaged person - I'm reticent about saying broken, as Jack is someone that has buckled and bent under the pressure of life, but to have broken under the strain of the trauma she's endured would almost certainly lead to suicide - and as such needs someone to help put her back on her feet, dust her off, and send her back off to play in the world. Yes, it's another mother/daughter analogy, I know, because as much as I think the character is sexy, I think she needs the unconditional love of family more than romantic love. Don't get me wrong, romance is a fine thing, and it can heal some of the most greivous wounds imaginable, but that's just my take on it all.

You open up the box that is Jack, there's a responsibility to help carry the load. She's strong, but she could use the help if she's going to get on the road to becoming the person she has been denied the chance to be for her entire life. The Jackmance is touched by the complexities and ambiguites of real life, and that just lets it soar over Miranda, Tali and pretty much every other character in the series so far, and that's why only some of us actually want to care - because games are about escaping that kind of heavy stuff. But I'd like to think that if you've known life, the **** it can throw at you, and how love really works... Jack will inevitably pull you into her gravity.

[sm00thie88]

Mondo47 wrote...


I wouldn't disagree at the point of Jack being/becoming a deep responsibility to the player. One of the things I've said from the very beginning is that Jack, moreso than any other character, needs love. Every other character will survive without it, because eventually they'll find it with someone. Jack is circling the drain, though; if something doesn't change in her life, this cancer inside her will just swallow her up and she would likely just die some unmourned, ignominious death somewhere in the galaxy-at-large. Someone willing to love her for who she is, be it platonic or romantic love, is the only potential cure for this.

Without someone to tell her they accept her for who she is, despite her past and regardless of her traumas, Jack won't get out of her self-defensive circle. This construct of hers to protect her from anything that can harm her, is actually the one thing most likely to kill her in the end. She's like a wild animal in a cage, but she built the prison herself to stop the horrors inflicted on her over the years happening again. With each moment of trust she has gathered from others (and each following betrayal) the prison has grown bigger and bigger to the point where someone trying to reach the Jack inside has to use bait, a wrecking ball and plastic explosive where words would do the job with any other person. And once she is out of the cage, naked and vulnerable to the world as that little girl on Pragia was, whoever has coaxed her out has to live with the consequences; if they hurt her intentionally, they're signing their own death warrant, and if they don't protect her from herself or the ups and downs of life they risk her retreating back into her armoured shell.

Jack needs a family if you ask me; someone as patient and kind as a mother, as accepting and equal as a sister, and someone who can make her feel as happy, safe and content as a lover. Jack needs to love herself too, and yeah, I guess a lover can teach her that too. She's a damaged person - I'm reticent about saying broken, as Jack is someone that has buckled and bent under the pressure of life, but to have broken under the strain of the trauma she's endured would almost certainly lead to suicide - and as such needs someone to help put her back on her feet, dust her off, and send her back off to play in the world. Yes, it's another mother/daughter analogy, I know, because as much as I think the character is sexy, I think she needs the unconditional love of family more than romantic love. Don't get me wrong, romance is a fine thing, and it can heal some of the most greivous wounds imaginable, but that's just my take on it all.

You open up the box that is Jack, there's a responsibility to help carry the load. She's strong, but she could use the help if she's going to get on the road to becoming the person she has been denied the chance to be for her entire life. The Jackmance is touched by the complexities and ambiguites of real life, and that just lets it soar over Miranda, Tali and pretty much every other character in the series so far, and that's why only some of us actually want to care - because games are about escaping that kind of heavy stuff. But I'd like to think that if you've known life, the **** it can throw at you, and how love really works... Jack will inevitably pull you into her gravity.

I whispered to the wind "read my mind" and the wind answered "read Mondo's response"

I agree totally with you, also the part of mother/daughter analogy. And this is, where Shepards influence ends, because all he can provide to her is the comfort of a working and deep romantic relationship. But that involves sex, and the way I see Jack as soon as sex is involved, she puts up certain defense mechanisms. And these lead to not beeing able to get the feelings from her partner she would get from a caring mother. Only thing we can do is push her in the right direction. So now you can question "then it would be better if she just would be in friendship with shepard" which I would deny. If so, she would never open up because that romantic connection leads to it, the feelings she discovers (maybe remind her on the ones she had for Murtock) and may have caused a moment of "letting go". And yes, this is why I want to call her romance the most mature, because its so deep and complex and along with sex appeal comes the responsibilities you owe your partner if loving him, and you owe them even more if your partner has such a disturbed past as Jack has.

[royceclemens]

I've said often on this board that it's never what Jack says, but all about what Jack means. She puts in little verbal deflections to direct people away from what she's thinking, adding a small layer of paradox to a woman whose life is literally written all over her.



Feature the Murtock conversation. Pick the paragon option, and....



JACK: It won't work. You'll just screw around. Or I'll just end up killing you or something.



SHEPARD: And?



JACK: And... That sucks!



And that's the closest thing to an acknowledgment of what he means to Jack that a romancing MaleShep gets. Think about it more and it's not about Jack thinking it. It's not about Shepard needing to hear it. But rather it's about Jack needing to hear herself say it.



I've romanced Jack more than any other character in ME2 and the more I listen to her and the more I hear her dialogue, the less I hold with the argument that she's broken or that she's crazy. Violent, unethical and antisocial? Sure. But broken? No. She knows exactly what she's doing. We ain't fixing squat. We're all giving ourselves entirely too much credit.



We are merely showing her that her way of dealing with life will leave her alone when it ends. That sometimes, being happy isn't always some mythical thing forever out of reach, but simply an optiion. That every once in a while, if you pay real close attention, life doesn't suck.



That the dude who saved the galaxy would be interested in her and put up with all her bull would mean that she might be worth something, right? And knowing Jack's worldview, wouldn't that scare the crap out of her?

[Mondo47]

Good ol' Uncle Royce - my fellow Jackanalyst

You think so far under the surface of these things you're like an eel in the reeds, Royce. It makes me seriously curious as to what the hell you really are!

To warp a line from the game "If you want an answer from the head, go to Royce, if you want an answer from the heart, come to me."

[sm00thie88]

Royce that's what I will keep in mind on my next renegade playthrough. Can't wait.

I also agree with the point that she knows what she wants. But what makes me curious is, even if she knows what she wants, does she alway point that out or often back up because speaking out what she wants (for example affection) makes the holes in her defense visible which she carefully wants to cover?

[Mondo47]

yorkj86 wrote...
You've made me sad, making me think about Jack dying alone and unknown to the people around her. 

Ok, if you want sad... here's a little analogy my father, God rest his booze-swilling cigar-smoking foulmouthed Rodney Dangerfield-like soul, taught to me as a kid. I can't remember his exact words, so here's my take on it.

"Go outside and look at the sky tonight. You'll see stars if the sky's clear. All those stars are so far away no-one on this planet right now will ever see them like we see the sun. So looking up and seeing them is all we can do; never visit, never explore, all we have is looking up and taking them in through the eyes. That's how we see the world, and we see each other - like stars. And every single one of those stars is dying - just like us. And there are more of them than you can count - just like us. Because they're so far away, the light has so far to go to reach us, some of those stars will be dead by now, and we'll maybe never know until the day that star goes out. Sometimes they go out in a supernova, and everyone sees them for what they are. Others just vanish, and no-one will ever have known they were there; there's just too many to remember, so we only have memories of the ones that burn out the brightest. Just like us. So burn bright. Explode. Shine. Be remembered. Because to fade and never be seen is the most tragic thing in the universe."

My father was odd for sure, and he had a barreload of faults, and it's his fault I have most of his faults and foybles, but sometimes he was so ****ing right.

[Mkrgross]

royceclemens wrote...

I've said often on this board that it's never what Jack says, but all about what Jack means. She puts in little verbal deflections to direct people away from what she's thinking, adding a small layer of paradox to a woman whose life is literally written all over her.

Feature the Murtock conversation. Pick the paragon option, and....

JACK: It won't work. You'll just screw around. Or I'll just end up killing you or something.

SHEPARD: And?

JACK: And... That sucks!

And that's the closest thing to an acknowledgment of what he means to Jack that a romancing MaleShep gets. Think about it more and it's not about Jack thinking it. It's not about Shepard needing to hear it. But rather it's about Jack needing to hear herself say it.

I've romanced Jack more than any other character in ME2 and the more I listen to her and the more I hear her dialogue, the less I hold with the argument that she's broken or that she's crazy. Violent, unethical and antisocial? Sure. But broken? No. She knows exactly what she's doing. We ain't fixing squat. We're all giving ourselves entirely too much credit.

We are merely showing her that her way of dealing with life will leave her alone when it ends. That sometimes, being happy isn't always some mythical thing forever out of reach, but simply an optiion. That every once in a while, if you pay real close attention, life doesn't suck.

That the dude who saved the galaxy would be interested in her and put up with all her bull would mean that she might be worth something, right? And knowing Jack's worldview, wouldn't that scare the crap out of her?

I totally agree. Shepard says a couple of times, I believe, that he can not fix her. Plus giving her the option, or making it seem you give her the option, of making the right choice, is the only thing that can put her back on the road of recovery.

Ultimately she needs to learn to trust and know there are people who can trust her. Which I believe the Suicide Mission kind of does. She has to rely on other people to accomplish something and people have to rely on her. She has done this before with gangs and such, but this time she technically not being used, though she can view it that way, and I think she probably does until Shepard walks in and decides to talk and actually care. If you go Renegade or just not talk to her at all, I don't see any growth and she would leave at first opportunity.

[adriano_c]

Mondo47 wrote...

You open up the box that is Jack...

Carry on.

[sm00thie88]

After that great (but heavy) discussion, I wanted to share this, maybe has been already posted, but I really like it.

[royceclemens]

Mondo47 wrote...

Good ol' Uncle Royce - my fellow Jackanalyst

You think so far under the surface of these things you're like an eel in the reeds, Royce. It makes me seriously curious as to what the hell you really are!

To warp a line from the game "If you want an answer from the head, go to Royce, if you want an answer from the heart, come to me."

Ah, such talk from the author of Northwest Jacqueline is high praise indeed.  And I told you, I'm a writer and [EDITED FOR SAFETY].

sm00thie: Good question. Much like a David Mamet character, Jack is terrified of being misquoted.  In a life where everything she is has either been used or held against her, why should her words be any different?  Except for her towering bloodlust, anything she wants she takes.  If she can't take it, then she has to ask for it and if it's come to that then she will convince herself she doesn't want it anymore.  If she honestly shows that she wants something then, in her mind, someone will make her jump through some nasty hoops to make her pay for wanting it.

It's all about facade with Jack, I believe.  The tattoos, the shaved head, the foul mouth, the violence.  Given all that's happened to her and the horrible things she's had to do and has had done to her just to see the next sunrise, I think she figures in the back of her head that it's something she has to live up to.  Because if all that torment and anguish was something she would wind up deserving, then the universe is a much simpler place that she knows her station in.

And to her, that's better than the alternative.  That life is random and cruel for great stretches and all the things that happened to her could just as easily have happened to someone else, but didn't.  That she would have to rise above and start taking the kind of chances that would start blowing up in her face, prolonging the unbearable agony that can come part and parcel with simple existence. 

This, I believe, is where we come in.

Modifié par royceclemens, 13 avril 2010 - 08:03 .

[Mondo47]

yorkj86 wrote...

Tsundere Jack ~

Jack: "S-stupid S-shepard, it's n-not like I like you o-or anything!"

I've described Miranda and Jack as richter-9 tsunderes before now

I now have this horrible image of the Mass Effect cast looking like they just stepped out of an episode of Lucky Star... pass the brainbleach!

[sm00thie88]

royceclemens wrote...

 Given all that's happened to her and the horrible things she's had to do and has had done to her just to see the next sunrise, I think she figures in the back of her head that it's something she has to live up to. 

That would be freakin' sad, because taking that into our thoughts it would mean that she's trapped in a infinite circle. Creating a wall around her, brick after brick, to protect her and let her survive in all kind of ways. But with the bricks slowly piling she undermines her own chance to see the next sunrise...

[Mkrgross]

sm00thie88 wrote...

royceclemens wrote...

 Given all that's happened to her and the horrible things she's had to do and has had done to her just to see the next sunrise, I think she figures in the back of her head that it's something she has to live up to. 

That would be freakin' sad, because taking that into our thoughts it would mean that she's trapped in a infinite circle. Creating a wall around her, brick after brick, to protect her and let her survive in all kind of ways. But with the bricks slowly piling she undermines her own chance to see the next sunrise...

Well she is living a destructive life in more ways than one. All this reminds me of Pink Floyd's The Wall. Not that I'm trying to bring music back on topic again, it just seems to fit.

[royceclemens]

sm00thie88 wrote...

royceclemens wrote...

 Given all that's happened to her and the horrible things she's had to do and has had done to her just to see the next sunrise, I think she figures in the back of her head that it's something she has to live up to. 

That would be freakin' sad, because taking that into our thoughts it would mean that she's trapped in a infinite circle. Creating a wall around her, brick after brick, to protect her and let her survive in all kind of ways. But with the bricks slowly piling she undermines her own chance to see the next sunrise...

And that's what you have to convince her of.  She's thinking short when she should be thinking long.  That sealing yourself off the way she does creates a neverending feedback loop of perpetual self-defeat.  As I've said, I don't think she's broken, but she is, however, woefully mistaken.

Looking at it this way, the tears in the romance scene aren't "I found a man and now I can stop beeing such a ward-heeling tool!"  It's more like "Finally, I can stop running."

[sm00thie88]

royceclemens wrote...


Looking at it this way, the tears in the romance scene aren't "I found a man and now I can stop beeing such a ward-heeling tool!"  It's more like "Finally, I can stop running."

This and giving Shepard a ****** hammer in the size of a house to smash and completely destroy that destructive wall Jack is hiding behind. It's like the beauty and the beast, except that Jack isn't a beast regarding the visual aspect, the beast is more living within her.

yorkj86 wrote...

Do we then think that she would only
continue this destructive cycle while on her own, or would it continue
in to a relationship, as well? We seem to think that she would do well
around people who genuinely love her, or, at the least, respect
her.

It would continue if you ask me. But with shepard she would be given the chance to see what's going wrong and getting help. For the relationship but, most important, for herself. This is why her relationship is challenging and therefore all the effort put into it worth every breath!

Modifié par sm00thie88, 13 avril 2010 - 08:18 .