20813 réponses à ce sujet

[Mondo47]

royceclemens wrote...

And that's what you have to convince her of.  She's thinking short when she should be thinking long.  That sealing yourself off the way she does creates a neverending feedback loop of perpetual self-defeat.  As I've said, I don't think she's broken, but she is, however, woefully mistaken.

Looking at it this way, the tears in the romance scene aren't "I found a man and now I can stop beeing such a ward-heeling tool!"  It's more like "Finally, I can stop running."

That's why I like to say damaged as opposed to broken; a chipped cup is damaged, but it still works.

And if you really want a blubbering premenstrual version of the tears (and people wonder why I'm eating cake for breakfast)...

"I'm home."

[Mkrgross]

royceclemens wrote...

sm00thie88 wrote...

royceclemens wrote...

 Given all that's happened to her and the horrible things she's had to do and has had done to her just to see the next sunrise, I think she figures in the back of her head that it's something she has to live up to. 

That would be freakin' sad, because taking that into our thoughts it would mean that she's trapped in a infinite circle. Creating a wall around her, brick after brick, to protect her and let her survive in all kind of ways. But with the bricks slowly piling she undermines her own chance to see the next sunrise...

And that's what you have to convince her of.  She's thinking short when she should be thinking long.  That sealing yourself off the way she does creates a neverending feedback loop of perpetual self-defeat.  As I've said, I don't think she's broken, but she is, however, woefully mistaken.

Looking at it this way, the tears in the romance scene aren't "I found a man and now I can stop beeing such a ward-heeling tool!"  It's more like "Finally, I can stop running."

Makes me wonder what approach BW is actually on taking this. As we pick it apart, I tend to believe most of what we are talking about here, but as Shepard walks the Normandy and talks to the few people who do recognize the relationship, to them it is all physical.

I too believe that tears was not about, "I finally found myself a man, who wants me for me," though I do think that is part of it but not as big of a part that the community as a whole believes. I truly hope BW is reading this thread from time to time, possibly getting a few ideas. (Not that I think their writers are inadequate, or anything).

[royceclemens]

yorkj86 wrote...

Do we then think that she would only continue this destructive cycle while on her own, or would it continue in to a relationship, as well? We seem to think that she would do well around people who genuinely love her, or, at the least, respect her.

Hate to just start spamming the thread with my ridiculousness, but I haven't been as active as I've wanted to lately, and i'm just making up for lost time.

From my perspective, gazing into the future as much as I can, I imagine there would at least a little bit of difficulty adjusting to the relationship, but I think the cycle of self-defeat would eventually end.  Marching her sorry little ass up to Shepard's cabin is to her what jumping off of a cliff with nothing but an umbrella and a Scientology pamphlet is to us.  But this was a risk that paid off so I could see her taking a few more.

If you didn't romance her?  Hell, I still see her prospects improving.  She didn't get lost as soon as the ship hit the Citadel, so at least she cares.  She saw what went down at Teltin, so she knows the galaxy revolves around a mass of black holes and not around her.  So I think some perspective is in order.

Plus, saving the human race?  Hell of a self-esteem booster.  I imagine that'd turn about anyone's frown upside down.

EDIT BECAUSE SOMETHING JUST OCCURRED TO ME: In either case, the cycle needs to end, and soon.  After you blow up Teltin and you go down and talk to her and she says she still wants to kill everything she sees.  You can pick the paragon option and she can defelct the Samaritan act, talking about bulls**t prison psych.

But pick the neutral option, saying "I take what I can get with you, Jack."  And she stammers and says thanks and quickly tries to get Shepard to go away, saying "Let's... Let's just get back to work."

It occurs to me that she wants to be just a nice, normal human being who can offer gratitude without it seeming like pulling teeth.  She can see you're frustrated with her attitude and she doesn't want you to be because she really does like you.  She just doesn't know how to express herself.  Being that negative is crushing her.

Modifié par royceclemens, 13 avril 2010 - 08:37 .

[sm00thie88]

royceclemens wrote...

EDIT BECAUSE SOMETHING JUST OCCURRED TO ME: In either case, the cycle needs to end, and soon.  After you blow up Teltin and you go down and talk to her and she says she still wants to kill everything she sees.  You can pick the paragon option and she can defelct the Samaritan act, talking about bulls**t prison psych.

But pick the neutral option, saying "I take what I can get with you, Jack."  And she stammers and says thanks and quickly tries to get Shepard to go away, saying "Let's... Let's just get back to work."

It occurs to me that she wants to be just a nice, normal human being who can offer gratitude without it seeming like pulling teeth.  She can see you're frustrated with her attitude and she doesn't want you to be because she really does like you.  She just doesn't know how to express herself.  Being that negative is crushing her.

But don't you think she is just pumped with all the confusion because going back to the place that made her what she is and finding about things, she didn't know until that particular moment. And instead of sitting in a corner, staring at a wall and saying "that was just to much, I need to think about all this, need to sort it out" she falls back into her old behaviour, building up a wall carried by violent behaviour...

[Mondo47]

royceclemens wrote...

Marching her sorry little ass up to Shepard's cabin is to her what jumping off of a cliff with nothing but an umbrella and a Scientology pamphlet is to us.  But this was a risk that paid off so I could see her taking a few more.

I can just see her getting in the lift and getting out of it again a half dozen times trying to figure out if what she's doing is right...


Jack: (pacing in front of the open elevator) ****, ****, ****, ****, ****... is... does he? I... ****, ****, ****...

EDI: I can assue you the elevator is safe.

Jack: Wha - oh, computer, right.

EDI: Is the elevator causing you anxiety? If this is the case, I can summon assistance for you if you so -

Jack: NO! I... no... it's just.... ****. I don't know...

EDI: I should warn you that the Normandy is preparing to travel through the Omega 4 Relay in just under one hundred and thirty seven minutes. The elevator is the least of anyone's concerns now.

Jack: ****... so we're...?

EDI : Yes. Commander Shepard has given the order and we are en-route. I believe he is in his cabin making preparations, if you wish to voice any concerns you may have at this time. It will however require the use of the -

Jack: Alright! Alright! I know! I'm not scared of the ****ing elevator! I'm going!

Jack gets into the elevator finally. The doors close and the car ascends.

EDI: All crew now functioning at optimum capacity.

[Jackal904]

As independent as Jack is, shortly after romancing Shepard I don't think she's ready to go off on her own just yet without him. If she were to somehow become seperated from Shepard anytime soon I think she would be crushed and be on a more self-destructive path than she was before she met Shepard. After being with Shepard for a while, like a few months, if she were to then become seperated from Shepard, I think she would be extremely sad but she would be able to take everything good she had learned from her time with him and she would move forward with a new, more positive outlook on life. She may become sad, lonely, and angry, but she wouldn't everything Shepard has done for her be in vain.

[royceclemens]

sm00thie88 wrote...

royceclemens wrote...

EDIT BECAUSE SOMETHING JUST OCCURRED TO ME: In either case, the cycle needs to end, and soon.  After you blow up Teltin and you go down and talk to her and she says she still wants to kill everything she sees.  You can pick the paragon option and she can defelct the Samaritan act, talking about bulls**t prison psych.

But pick the neutral option, saying "I take what I can get with you, Jack."  And she stammers and says thanks and quickly tries to get Shepard to go away, saying "Let's... Let's just get back to work."

It occurs to me that she wants to be just a nice, normal human being who can offer gratitude without it seeming like pulling teeth.  She can see you're frustrated with her attitude and she doesn't want you to be because she really does like you.  She just doesn't know how to express herself.  Being that negative is crushing her.

But don't you think she is just pumped with all the confusion because going back to the place that made her what she is and finding about things, she didn't know until that particular moment. And instead of sitting in a corner, staring at a wall and saying "that was just to much, I need to think about all this, need to sort it out" she falls back into her old behaviour, building up a wall carried by violent behaviour...

Oh, indeed.  But at that moment she's confronted wth someone helping her who A) isn't using her to some awful end and isn't their job to help her.  She's keeping her attitude to deal with the revelations as best she can, but at that point it becomes obvious to her how grating her attitude can be in the face of genuine concern.

Pick the paragon option and she can latch onto your attitude and deflect it, thinking you're just some goody-goody who sees her as little more than a lost puppy.  Show some irritation and she kinda caves a little.  It's as close to an apology for her gruffness towards you as she's capable of.

[Jackal904]

royceclemens wrote...

Looking at it this way, the tears in the romance scene aren't "I found a man and now I can stop beeing such a ward-heeling tool!"  It's more like "Finally, I can stop running."

That's a great way of putting it royce. When she hugs Shepard you can just tell this gigantic sigh of relief is going off in her head.

[sm00thie88]

There's a big black hole in everyone of us. Leeching to tear us appart. But with comfort and strenght we start a rebellion, stuffing what misses, mosaic after mosaic and finally, at the moment of clarity it reveals it's true beauty.

[BobbyTheI]

Yeah, I know these things are totally lame, but what the hell?  Got nothing better to do while I sit and wait for the latest episode of the Deadly Premonition Endurance Run to download:

http://social.biowar...index/2242487/1

If you've got a spare moment, go give Jack a boost.

[royceclemens]

BobbyTheI wrote...

Yeah, I know these things are totally lame, but what the hell?  Got nothing better to do while I sit and wait for the latest episode of the Deadly Premonition Endurance Run to download:

http://social.biowar...index/2242487/1

If you've got a spare moment, go give Jack a boost.

YOU HEARD THE MAN!

[sm00thie88]

Fellows, I really enjoyed the awesome conversation with you. But it's getting late in good old europe and I need to get up in a couple of hours. So this is where it ends - for today.

Take care all of you.

[MHRazer]

Just wanted to say I love you guys. Never before have I added an individual thread to my Favorites, and never before have I read every post in over 100 pages of a thread. It's a little sad actually, but this place is just full of too much win.



In all honesty, I have had this specific tab open in Chrome for over a month now. Literally have not closed it, short of restarting my computer. (But Chrome opens on startup and reloads all open tabs, so it really wasn't even closed then either.)



Also, royce you have blown my mind for the last few pages.

[Jackal904]

BobbyTheI wrote...

Yeah, I know these things are totally lame, but what the hell?  Got nothing better to do while I sit and wait for the latest episode of the Deadly Premonition Endurance Run to download:

http://social.biowar...index/2242487/1

If you've got a spare moment, go give Jack a boost.

Wow, how the hell did Tali get knocked out so fast? I guess there are more Tali haters than there are Talimancers. And how the hell is Liara so far ahead? I think Garrus is going to win, but of course I want to Jack to win.

[royceclemens]

MHRazer wrote...

Just wanted to say I love you guys. Never before have I added an individual thread to my Favorites, and never before have I read every post in over 100 pages of a thread. It's a little sad actually, but this place is just full of too much win.

In all honesty, I have had this specific tab open in Chrome for over a month now. Literally have not closed it, short of restarting my computer. (But Chrome opens on startup and reloads all open tabs, so it really wasn't even closed then either.)

Also, royce you have blown my mind for the last few pages.

Glad as always to oblige my neighbors.  And as the bandleader on the Titanic said, "It's been an honor playing with you all."  

Just out of curiosity, has anyone devoted the kind of analysis and conjecture that we've devoted to Jack to another video game character?  Because I'm a byproduct of the game.  This is my first game forum, and I only came here to talk about this character. 

[Mkrgross]

royceclemens wrote...

MHRazer wrote...

Just wanted to say I love you guys. Never before have I added an individual thread to my Favorites, and never before have I read every post in over 100 pages of a thread. It's a little sad actually, but this place is just full of too much win.

In all honesty, I have had this specific tab open in Chrome for over a month now. Literally have not closed it, short of restarting my computer. (But Chrome opens on startup and reloads all open tabs, so it really wasn't even closed then either.)

Also, royce you have blown my mind for the last few pages.

Glad as always to oblige my neighbors.  And as the bandleader on the Titanic said, "It's been an honor playing with you all."  

Just out of curiosity, has anyone devoted the kind of analysis and conjecture that we've devoted to Jack to another video game character?  Because I'm a byproduct of the game.  This is my first game forum, and I only came here to talk about this character. 

Honestly this is the first game character I cared enough about to pour this much time and effort into. Normally game characters do not grab me as much, as say, book characters do, for obvious reasons. So no I'm in the same boat as you.

[Mondo47]

royceclemens wrote...

MHRazer wrote...

Just wanted to say I love you guys. Never before have I added an individual thread to my Favorites, and never before have I read every post in over 100 pages of a thread. It's a little sad actually, but this place is just full of too much win.

In all honesty, I have had this specific tab open in Chrome for over a month now. Literally have not closed it, short of restarting my computer. (But Chrome opens on startup and reloads all open tabs, so it really wasn't even closed then either.)

Also, royce you have blown my mind for the last few pages.

Glad as always to oblige my neighbors.  And as the bandleader on the Titanic said, "It's been an honor playing with you all."  

Just out of curiosity, has anyone devoted the kind of analysis and conjecture that we've devoted to Jack to another video game character?  Because I'm a byproduct of the game.  This is my first game forum, and I only came here to talk about this character. 

Not for myself either... I tend to steer clear of forums, too much drama. Says something for Jack... all I do besides this thread is the occasional snarky comment in another thread or Motivationals

[royceclemens]

Aye. It's either here or trolling threads that I find idiotic... Which is like, two of all the posts I've made.

[BobbyTheI]

To be honest, I probably wouldn't be hanging out around here as much as I do if A) you weren't all a bunch of generally intelligent people who I like having discussions with, and  BioWare hadn't shown themselves to be folks who really take the fans and their desires into account when designing games, and actually pay attention to things like threads on their forums. 

I feel like every post I put on this thread is just a little bit of an increase in the chance that a genuinely unique and interesting character like Jack will get more of a chance to shine in ME3, and we won't get force-fed more bland, uninteresting bimbos like... well, do I even need to mention a name?

I'm not looking forward to a year from now, though, or whenever the first few drabbles of ME3 information come out, and we're all on the edge of our seats, waiting to see if our favorite characters will get face-time or not.  It's even worse this time, considering it's the last chapter of Shepard's story.  So if we don't get any Jack this time... we don't get Jack, period.  If we think things get bad now, just wait until the news comes out that *INSERT CHARACTER NAME* only gets a cameo.

[Jackal904]

Mkrgross wrote...

royceclemens wrote...

MHRazer wrote...

Just wanted to say I love you guys. Never before have I added an individual thread to my Favorites, and never before have I read every post in over 100 pages of a thread. It's a little sad actually, but this place is just full of too much win.

In all honesty, I have had this specific tab open in Chrome for over a month now. Literally have not closed it, short of restarting my computer. (But Chrome opens on startup and reloads all open tabs, so it really wasn't even closed then either.)

Also, royce you have blown my mind for the last few pages.

Glad as always to oblige my neighbors.  And as the bandleader on the Titanic said, "It's been an honor playing with you all."  

Just out of curiosity, has anyone devoted the kind of analysis and conjecture that we've devoted to Jack to another video game character?  Because I'm a byproduct of the game.  This is my first game forum, and I only came here to talk about this character. 

Honestly this is the first game character I cared enough about to pour this much time and effort into. Normally game characters do not grab me as much, as say, book characters do, for obvious reasons. So no I'm in the same boat as you.

Same here. I like to occasionally look at forums of games I enjoy, but I have never gotten involved like this before. I was pretty active on the Borderlands forums for a little while, but it wasn't because of a character from the game, I just really liked the game. Although I did really like Lilith, she's badass. But it was nothing like my interest in Jack.

[adriano_c]

royceclemens wrote...

This is my first game forum, and I only came here to talk about this character. 

I'm with you on this.

Never before have I browsed a game-related forum regularly, let alone bothered to post on one regularly.

Jack has inspired this strange new behavior! Oh, and ME2 overall, I suppose...more of an afterthought!

[Urdaniel]

I'll put myself in the first-timer column as well.  All my previous forays on forums have been kept short or cut short for pretty much the reasons everyone else before me has stated.  I've certainly never bothered to read all the previous pages to a thread before.  Let me just add my voice to royce's sentiment - it's been great meeting everyone and nothing I've seen since stepping in here has made me reconsider that assessment.  If anything, it's only reinforced it (with a special shout-out to the last several pages of posts).  My virtual hat is off to all of you.  It's also off to Bioware, who made a potentially-unlikeable character deep and interesting enough to spark this level of discussion.  Jack had better be back - and in more than just a cameo.  <_<

[Jackal904]

BobbyTheI wrote...

I'm not looking forward to a year from now, though, or whenever the first few drabbles of ME3 information come out, and we're all on the edge of our seats, waiting to see if our favorite characters will get face-time or not.  It's even worse this time, considering it's the last chapter of Shepard's story.  So if we don't get any Jack this time... we don't get Jack, period.  If we think things get bad now, just wait until the news comes out that *INSERT CHARACTER NAME* only gets a cameo.

Oh man I don't even want to think about it. I am looking forward to ME3, I'm just very nervous about how they'll handle ME2 squadmates in ME3.

Urdaniel wrote...

Jack had better be back - and in more than just a cameo. 

Ha, ya. BioWare has really made everyone paranoid by not having all ME1 squadmates as squadmates in ME2. They better not pull that crap again in ME3. If they do, I recommend BioWare place land mines all around their building to help defend against the waves of angry fans.

Modifié par Jackal904, 13 avril 2010 - 11:54 .

[adriano_c]

That makes me curious, actually.



How were the ME1 party members received by the "community" at the time of release and before ME2 came out? Were they as popular as what we have with the ME2 characters now? I can't really imagine so, as I thought they were all horribly forgettable, in my opinion.



I ask because, considering the response this set of characters has gotten (and the dedication, of course), they'd be absurd to bench them for the final game.