20813 réponses à ce sujet

[Mondo47]

royceclemens wrote...

Indeed.  I've said as much a couple pages back, but as it was one of my shinier moments on this thread, I may as well repeat myself.

Jack isn't broken, nor is she crazy.  Broken and crazy people have no idea what they're doing. whereas Jack knows exactly what she's doing.  The object isn't to fix, but rather to persuade her that her defense mechanisms are a zero-sum game, and that if she goes to all that trouble to stay alone, she really will be.

There's a person underneath all that and Shepard's romance isn't so much as dragging it out by hook or by crook, but rather running interference so she can do it herself.

This - though I only agree with you about 95% Uncle Royce

The Jackmance is not about fixing, that mush is certain - Shepard himself says he can't do it instantly, and Jack can't do it herself quickly either. It's like playing tic-tac-toe with Joshua; you have to convince her that her game isn't helping, and she has to stop playing before it's too late. Jack needs to see that not only is it futile, it's as self-destructive as her normal behaviour is. Someone taking her for who she is, not buying her bull****, and flatly refusing to walk away is turning a key in a rusty lock and opening her cell up.

The little bit I disagree on is that there is some coaxing, taunting almost - Jack would ignore the open door without a little bait. It's not so much dragging her out as teasing her out of her cage so she can see for herself the outside is not always a bad thing to explore. Sure, she has to want to heal, but the way I read her as a woman, it certainly helps that whenever she feels weak or afraid that she knows someone will be there for her regardless of the mess she might make; training wheels for normality. They'll come off sooner or later on their own, which is why part of me thinks that even  non-romanced Jack will change in time; perhaps not so dramatically or sweetly, but eventually. Shepard after all can save the galaxy, helping one woman save herself is a doddle

[Jackal904]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

You were teasing him a little though.  He may have gone away a little faster if you had totally ignored him.

Pffft, then it wouldn't have been as funny. We really owe a lot to Zenn. The arguments he caused gave the boost this thread needed. It stayed on page one from all the arguements the troll caused, so more people starting noticing the thread and posting in it, and quite a lot of people came to defend Jack against Zenn's comments. I tried to reason with him at first but he quickly made it clear he was just a troll when his comments devolved into, "No cus Jack sux lol!" And then Bobby started doin the 'black boxing" thing which was hilarious. And then I sic'd Stanley Woo on his ass and we never saw him here again.

adriano_c wrote...

Jackal904 wrote...

Yeah, those three scenarios should lead to significantly different outcomes. BioWare couldn't use the same outcome for any two of them and have it make sense, unless she simply leaves unless you paragon romance her, which I think would be kind of lazy on BioWare's part. This is a slight concern for me, because there are so many different outcomes for Jack in ME3 based on actions taken with her in ME2. And that will be a lot of work for BioWare to create different outcomes for each scenario. But I have faith in BioWare. I just hope they do her "continued" romance in ME3 justice.

I think this has been discussed before, and I'll have to disagree, again (if so), regarding the complexity of potential personality shifts and/or outcomes for 'Jack'.

Paragon romance storyline = changed 'Jack'. Just how much, we'll see, but I don't expect anything too drastic aside from how she interacts with 'Shepard', and possibly becoming more benign with team members and overall demeanour.

Renegade romance "storyline" = business as usual for 'Jack'. All that does, really, is keep her as is. It's what she initially expected of 'Shepard', afterall.

No romance storyline = again, business as usual for 'Jack'.

The only other path I could see affecting her is going the full renegade route, having her kill the guy at Teltin, and perhaps giving her that final push on a downward, self-destructive spiral. If Bioware went so far as to even program this one possible outcome, I'd be pleasantly surprised.

Yeah you're probably right. There could be small differences, like a few lines of dialogue that differ based on specific scenarios. Like if you had casual sex with her she might make a comment about it at some point, but other than that she would be the same as if you had not romanced her. I'm pretty sure I read a comment somwhere that said they had Jack survive even though she was the only unloyal squadmate. The outcome from not gaining her loyalty, losing her loyalty, and turning her down when she comes to you in your cabin could be mostly the same, which I'd assume would be her leaving. But if at some point you talk to her about her wanting to leave or having left, the dialogue would have to be pretty different since the reasons for her leaving can differ significantly.

Of course all outcomes are going to have to have some similarities. It would be too much work to make completely different outcomes for each of the distinct scenarios. But once again BioWare did dig themselves this hole. They sure have created a lot of expectations for ME3 that seem unlikely due to the amount of work required to deal with so many possible saved game variations that can be carried over to ME3. And they have to have known this would happen. I don't think they would dig themselves a hole that they cannot fill up, which is why I have faith in BioWare that they will do the right thing and make most fans of all characters happy.

On a different note. I've noticed quite a few new people posting here lately. Some to join in on the conversation and some to just briefly show their support. That makes Jackal happy .

Modifié par Jackal904, 15 avril 2010 - 02:33 .

[royceclemens]

Jackal904 wrote...

JohnnyDollar wrote...

You were teasing him a little though.  He may have gone away a little faster if you had totally ignored him.

Pffft, then it wouldn't have been as funny. We really owe a lot to Zenn. The arguments he caused gave the boost this thread needed. It stayed on page one from all the arguements the troll caused, so more people starting noticing the thread and posting in it, and quite a lot of people came to defend Jack against Zenn's comments. I tried to reason with him at first but he quickly made it clear he was just a troll when his comments devolved into, "No cus Jack sux lol!" And then Bobby started doin the 'black boxing" thing which was hilarious. And then I sic'd Stanley Woo on his ass and we never saw him here again..

Ah, I remember it well.  It got so bad that one of the other trolls on the thread actually up and changed his mind in the face of ZennExile's ass-crackery.

Modifié par royceclemens, 15 avril 2010 - 03:05 .

[Jackal904]

royceclemens wrote...

Jackal904 wrote...

JohnnyDollar wrote...

You were teasing him a little though.  He may have gone away a little faster if you had totally ignored him.

Pffft, then it wouldn't have been as funny. We really owe a lot to Zenn. The arguments he caused gave the boost this thread needed. It stayed on page one from all the arguements the troll caused, so more people starting noticing the thread and posting in it, and quite a lot of people came to defend Jack against Zenn's comments. I tried to reason with him at first but he quickly made it clear he was just a troll when his comments devolved into, "No cus Jack sux lol!" And then Bobby started doin the 'black boxing" thing which was hilarious. And then I sic'd Stanley Woo on his ass and we never saw him here again..

Ah, I remember it well.  It got so bad that one of the other trolls on the thread actually up and changed his mind in the face of ZennExile's ass-crackery.

You talking about that 'Righteous Rage' guy who said something like, "After reading Zenn's posts I now hate Jack." Well that guy always hated Jack and he just made that comment to try and boost Zenn's confidence and make people think Zenn was doing any actual damage.

[royceclemens]

Strange I took it that he was always against Jack, but actually backpedaled after Zenn flaunted his toolishness. I may be wrong about that, and I don't want to go thread sifting to see, but that's how I always took it.



But going back to a nonloyal Jack, and indeed nonloyal squadmates of any kind surviving into ME3, I think the approach that would not only save money in VA costs but also make sense is that they shouldn't be recruitable in ME3 at all. I mean, if you weren't loyal to them and did their errands, why should they be loyal to you and do yours?

[Torrential]

Quite new to the thread, as I have only just finished the game.

My squad stayed Jack, Zhaeed and me – With a renegade ending to the romance all the way.

Me: Off to certain death then?
Jack: I'm ready
Zhaeed: I'm always ready

I loved the last lines of the game , they summed up my Jack all the way through.

Take the hits and then come back twice as hard, I don't think i've ever seen a female character with as much attitude, at least not one i've spent several hours exploring. Here is to hoping she's back for another round in the next game, if not I hope she goes out with a hell of a bang.

One thing is for sure, whoever steps into the renegade romance option is going to have a heck of a time making the same impression on my gameplay, even if Jack is back .

Modifié par Torrential, 15 avril 2010 - 03:25 .

[royceclemens]

Well, yfhfrg, I'm thinking just a little bit more dialogue and a content seal-off. I mean, if ME2 kept track of the ways you handled Gianna's sidequest in ME1, then this should be a walk in the park, and better than recording seperate loyal/nonloyal dialogue throughout the entirety of the game. It's either that or just one set of dialogue that could make people scratch their heads and essentially reward people for skipping portions of ME2.

[Jackal904]

royceclemens wrote...

Strange I took it that he was always against Jack, but actually backpedaled after Zenn flaunted his toolishness. I may be wrong about that, and I don't want to go thread sifting to see, but that's how I always took it.

Maybe, I don't remember it well enough.

But going back to a nonloyal Jack, and indeed nonloyal squadmates of any kind surviving into ME3, I think the approach that would not only save money in VA costs but also make sense is that they shouldn't be recruitable in ME3 at all. I mean, if you weren't loyal to them and did their errands, why should they be loyal to you and do yours?

Yeah this may happen. Jacob and Miranda should stay either way since they're Cerberus. But it would make sense that everyone else leaves if they are not loyal. If Shepard isn't going to help them with their loyalty mission they'd probably leave and go do it themself. But if you gained their loyalty and then lost it, or failed their loyalty mission, they'd have to come up with a different reason for why they left. Which probably wouldn't require too much work. Just a brief explanation.

Torrential wrote...

Quite new to the thread, as I have only just finished the game.

My squad stayed Jack, Zhaeed and me – With a renegade ending to the romance all the way.

Me: Off to certain death then?
Jack: I'm ready
Zhaeed: I'm always ready

I loved the last lines of the game , they summed up my Jack all the way through.

Take the hits and then come back twice as hard, I don't think i've ever seen a female character with as much attitude, at least not one i've spent several hours exploring. Here is to hoping she's back for another round in the next game, if not I hope she goes out with a hell of a bang.

One thing is for sure, whoever steps into the renegade romance option is going to have a heck of a time making the same impression on my gameplay, even if Jack is back .

I'm not sure what you mean by a renegeade ending to her romance. If you had casual sex with her that's not really a "romance." In fact she kind of hates you for it.

Or did you choose renegade dialogue options that still allowed you to achieve her complete paragon romance subplot?

[royceclemens]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

Jackal904 wrote...

JohnnyDollar wrote...
You were teasing him a little though.  He may have gone away a little faster if you had totally ignored him.

Pffft, then it wouldn't have been as funny. We really owe a lot to Zenn. The arguments he caused gave the boost this thread needed. It stayed on page one from all the arguements the troll caused, so more people starting noticing the thread and posting in it, and quite a lot of people came to defend Jack against Zenn's comments. I tried to reason with him at first but he quickly made it clear he was just a troll when his comments devolved into, "No cus Jack sux lol!" And then Bobby started doin the 'black boxing" thing which was hilarious. And then I sic'd Stanley Woo on his ass and we never saw him here again.

Ah yes, ulterior motive to help get the thread off of the ground, I had not considered this.

Plus watching the Arch-Troll of the BioWare forums thoroughly humiliated?  A kicker in and of itself, as this wasn't the only thread he decided to leave his droppings in.  This thread rules all any old day of the week, but in those days we should have sold tickets.

And Bobby became a hero.  You know that long tracking shot in GOODFELLAS that follows Ray Liotta and Lorraine Bracco into the Copa?  His entire life is like that.

Modifié par royceclemens, 15 avril 2010 - 04:19 .

[Torrential]

I'm not sure what you mean by a renegeade ending to her romance. If you had casual sex with her that's not really a "romance." In fact she kind of hates you for it.

Or did you choose renegade dialogue options that still allowed you to achieve her complete paragon romance subplot?

What would you call it then if not the romance subplot? It was one of several scenes in the romance plot that decide the fate of the two characters relationship, if it had continued it wouldn't of been casual for my shep . From my renegades point of view, he would of stuck with her, as she was the most lethal weapon he had. There are several scenes that build up to the romance conclusion, but lets face it the majority are hard and fast like the character, so it felt right to play it the way I did.

In fact she kind of hates you for it.

She hates the world, she's a killer in my playthrough , perfectly in character. Though she didn't say she -hated- my shep at all, I doubt she hates him anymore than the world she's in. Coming from the renegade playthrough of course, very different if your going Paragon.

For me she was the perfect hard as nails female character, one i've always wanted to fight side by side with in an RPG.

Or did you choose renegade dialogue options that still allowed you to achieve her complete paragon romance subplot?

Interesting! I will have to do that next run through.

Modifié par Torrential, 15 avril 2010 - 04:52 .

[Mak999]

yorkj86 wrote...

Some people claim that a Paragon Shepard romancing Jack is immoral on the grounds that he is helping her to resolve profound personal issues, and thus attempting to enter in to a relationship with her is to take advantage of the trust she has invested in him.

Discuss.

I do not understand what immoral is that Jack Shepard is helping to solve its problems. After all, he argues, Jack, that she is not indifferent to him (maybe I'm wrong to translate for yourself your message).

Modifié par Mak999, 15 avril 2010 - 04:55 .

[royceclemens]

yorkj86 wrote...

Some people claim that a Paragon Shepard romancing Jack is immoral on the grounds that he is helping her to resolve profound personal issues, and thus attempting to enter in to a relationship with her is to take advantage of the trust she has invested in him.

Discuss.

In a word: horsecrap.

She has problems of a personal nature, but they are not psychological.  We are not putting the moves on a crazy woman.  The fact of the matter is that Jack cares for Shepard.  She wants a relationship as she's left verbal clues all over the place.  But she's so afraid of losing something like she lost Murtock that she won't even try to have it anymore.

The facts are that Jack still talks to Shepard even after she cops to not wanting a relationship.  No one gave her truth serum.  She marches up to his cabin before the Omega 4 relay.  He did not knock her out and take her up there.  She wants to heal herself and part of that means meaning someone to someone else and admitting that you care.

Look, the "taking advantage of Jack" argument is an easy one to make, provided you have no capacity for nuance.  And to be fair, Shepard does slither his way into her brain, occupy her thoughts and make her do things she wouldn't normally do.

But there's a term for that.

It's called "Falling in love."

Modifié par royceclemens, 15 avril 2010 - 05:10 .

[Mondo47]

Can I call some responsibility for the whole affair? I did fire the first shot in return!

[BobbyTheI]

yorkj86 wrote...

Mak999 wrote...

yorkj86 wrote...

Some people claim that a Paragon Shepard romancing Jack is immoral on the grounds that he is helping her to resolve profound personal issues, and thus attempting to enter in to a relationship with her is to take advantage of the trust she has invested in him.

Discuss.

I do not understand what immoral is that Jack Shepard is helping to solve its problems. After all, he argues, Jack, that she is not indifferent to him (maybe I'm wrong to translate for yourself your message).

I think they might say that a Paragon Shepard romancing Jack is similar to a therapist entering in to a relationship with his/her patient, or the "nice-guy" who is a nice-guy only because he thinks that earning a woman's trust entitles him to her romantic interest. 

(Please, I'm not trying to start a flamewar about all "nice-guys".  I'm just mentioning the ones who have ulterior motives.)

Honestly, I could see people playing it that way.  After all, we already have a Shepard who can sell out a petty criminal to a likely death for no other reason than the lulz, shoot unarmed individuals at the drop of a hat, leave innocent workers to die to serve one of his comrade's vendettas... who's to say he can't exploit a vulnerable person's trust like that?  It's all in how you interpret your own Shepard's actions.   You could say that a Renegade Shepard would just bang Jack when she offers, but a more devious, wicked Shepard would string her along, knowing that if he won her trust, he'd not only have a sexual plaything, but a devotee who would probably die to suit his whims.

Wow, I got evil for a second there.  For the record, my Shepard is a shining beacon of Paragon goodness, who wants what's best for all of his crewmembers, and who truly cares about Jack and wants to help her.  Which is why I'm glad the final scene of the romance is left so ambiguous, and I think most people here would interpret it not as sex, but more of just intimacy and breaking down walls.  I like how Kasumi put it: "I heard that you and Jack shared a... moment."  

(Which, again, feeds into my theory that Kasumi is a peeping tom who goes around to everyone's bedrooms and watches them.  Where the hell would she have "heard" that from?  Is she having girl talk moments with Jack?  Now there's a Mondo scene waiting to happen.  )

[royceclemens]

BobbyTheI wrote...

(Which, again, feeds into my theory that Kasumi is a peeping tom who goes around to everyone's bedrooms and watches them.  Where the hell would she have "heard" that from?  Is she having girl talk moments with Jack?  Now there's a Mondo scene waiting to happen.  )

[Jackal904]

yorkj86 wrote...

Some people claim that a Paragon Shepard romancing Jack is immoral on the grounds that he is helping her to resolve profound personal issues, and thus attempting to enter in to a relationship with her is to take advantage of the trust she has invested in him.

Discuss.

I am completely baffled by people who think this. They must live an incredibly sheltered life. I question if they have even recruited Jack let a lone speak to her on the Normandy. It is an idiotic and naive claim. Her paragon romance is not like Miranda's. It's not like, "Hey baby, you're hot, I'm hot, lets ****." Jack's paragon romance is about showing her that someone genuinely cares about her, and that it's ok to trust and get close to people. It's about chipping away at the defenses she has constructed from all the trauma she has endured, and letting her know that she does not need them anymore because you are there for her.