20813 réponses à ce sujet

[Pacifien]

yorkj86 wrote...

Some people claim that a Paragon Shepard romancing Jack is immoral on the grounds that he is helping her to resolve profound personal issues, and thus attempting to enter in to a relationship with her is to take advantage of the trust she has invested in him.

Discuss.

I suppose it depends on how you play Shepard. I was going to say that a Paragon Shepard wouldn't manipulate a relationship to get what he wants, but then I realized that's not true. Paragon Shepard manipulates Garrus into backing down. Paragon Shepard plays the Migrant Fleet for Tali's sake. I can picture a Paragon Shepard manipulating a morally corrupt individual to fit into the army he's building.

Does that mean every Paragon Shepard is like that? No. I imagine a lot of people romanced Jack because they truly found her character interesting enough to not want it to be destroyed on her path of self destruction. That's not manipulation, that's genuinely caring for a person.

[royceclemens]

Pacifien wrote...

yorkj86 wrote...

Some people claim that a Paragon Shepard romancing Jack is immoral on the grounds that he is helping her to resolve profound personal issues, and thus attempting to enter in to a relationship with her is to take advantage of the trust she has invested in him.

Discuss.

I suppose it depends on how you play Shepard. I was going to say that a Paragon Shepard wouldn't manipulate a relationship to get what he wants, but then I realized that's not true. Paragon Shepard manipulates Garrus into backing down. Paragon Shepard plays the Migrant Fleet for Tali's sake. I can picture a Paragon Shepard manipulating a morally corrupt individual to fit into the army he's building.

Does that mean every Paragon Shepard is like that? No. I imagine a lot of people romanced Jack because they truly found her character interesting enough to not want it to be destroyed on her path of self destruction. That's not manipulation, that's genuinely caring for a person.

But then we're getting into the morality of each individual player.  In a way, you only get out of the romance, any romance, or even the game as a whole what you put into it.

You could romance Tali because you like her as a person, identify with her and are grateful that she trusted you when no one else would... or you could just be curious about what's under the helmet, getting yourself some virgin Quarian strange. 

You could romance Miranda because you like that massive ass of hers, or... Actually, there's no other way to romance Miranda.  Forget I brought it up.

Everyone in this game is emotionally needy on some level.  Picking on Jack about this just doesn't seem fair.  How is she any different from the Drell with the dead wife or the turian who's afraid to trust someone because everything blows up in his face or the girl in the purple bubble.

[Pacifien]

royceclemens wrote...
Everyone in this game is emotionally needy on some level.  Picking on Jack about this just doesn't seem fair.  How is she any different from the Drell with the dead wife or the turian who's afraid to trust someone because everything blows up in his face or the girl in the purple bubble.

I'd gladly pick on every single squadmate's issues, but on these forums... I can only handle so many kneejerk reactions.

[Mondo47]

royceclemens wrote...

Everyone in this game is emotionally needy on some level.  Picking on Jack about this just doesn't seem fair.  How is she any different from the Drell with the dead wife or the turian who's afraid to trust someone because everything blows up in his face or the girl in the purple bubble.

And I think that's why so many people have connected so well with these characters, seemingly so much moreso than the ME1 love interests (note that it really required them being sidelined in the second game to draw their fanbases to a serious feverpitch). At the end of the day, as a species that takes pleasure in the expression of emotion to others, we desire the emotionally needful (I'm not using the term 'needy' here because it has negative connotations if used in this sense) because we are, as humans, emotionally needful.

[royceclemens]

Mondo47 wrote...

royceclemens wrote...

Everyone in this game is emotionally needy on some level.  Picking on Jack about this just doesn't seem fair.  How is she any different from the Drell with the dead wife or the turian who's afraid to trust someone because everything blows up in his face or the girl in the purple bubble.

And I think that's why so many people have connected so well with these characters, seemingly so much moreso than the ME1 love interests (note that it really required them being sidelined in the second game to draw their fanbases to a serious feverpitch). At the end of the day, as a species that takes pleasure in the expression of emotion to others, we desire the emotionally needful (I'm not using the term 'needy' here because it has negative connotations if used in this sense) because we are, as humans, emotionally needful.

I think the kind of faux-concern that spurred this conversation is reductive and condescending.  The lizard doesn't need help.  The guy with the scars on his face doesn't need help.  The girl in the enviro-suit doesn't need help.  But (GASP!  SHOCK!) the girl with a bald head and tattoos obviously needs special assistance.  Romance is obviously unethical even though it is between two consenting adults.

[Mondo47]

royceclemens wrote...

Mondo47 wrote...

royceclemens wrote...

Everyone in this game is emotionally needy on some level.  Picking on Jack about this just doesn't seem fair.  How is she any different from the Drell with the dead wife or the turian who's afraid to trust someone because everything blows up in his face or the girl in the purple bubble.

And I think that's why so many people have connected so well with these characters, seemingly so much moreso than the ME1 love interests (note that it really required them being sidelined in the second game to draw their fanbases to a serious feverpitch). At the end of the day, as a species that takes pleasure in the expression of emotion to others, we desire the emotionally needful (I'm not using the term 'needy' here because it has negative connotations if used in this sense) because we are, as humans, emotionally needful.

I think the kind of faux-concern that spurred this conversation is reductive and condescending.  The lizard doesn't need help.  The guy with the scars on his face doesn't need help.  The girl in the enviro-suit doesn't need help.  But (GASP!  SHOCK!) the girl with a bald head and tattoos obviously needs special assistance.  Romance is obviously unethical even though it is between two consenting adults.

Judging an alien by its cover isn't as easy as judging a human, sad to say

[Sago_mulch]

Mondo47 wrote...

royceclemens wrote...

Mondo47 wrote...

royceclemens wrote...

Everyone in this game is emotionally needy on some level.  Picking on Jack about this just doesn't seem fair.  How is she any different from the Drell with the dead wife or the turian who's afraid to trust someone because everything blows up in his face or the girl in the purple bubble.

And I think that's why so many people have connected so well with these characters, seemingly so much moreso than the ME1 love interests (note that it really required them being sidelined in the second game to draw their fanbases to a serious feverpitch). At the end of the day, as a species that takes pleasure in the expression of emotion to others, we desire the emotionally needful (I'm not using the term 'needy' here because it has negative connotations if used in this sense) because we are, as humans, emotionally needful.

I think the kind of faux-concern that spurred this conversation is reductive and condescending.  The lizard doesn't need help.  The guy with the scars on his face doesn't need help.  The girl in the enviro-suit doesn't need help.  But (GASP!  SHOCK!) the girl with a bald head and tattoos obviously needs special assistance.  Romance is obviously unethical even though it is between two consenting adults.

Judging an alien by its cover isn't as easy as judging a human, sad to say

DEPENDS IF THE ALIEN LIQUIFIES YOU IN ORDER TO GROW A GIANT MACHINE. OR WANTS TO EAT YOU WHOLE.

[MHRazer]

Sago_mulch wrote...

Mondo47 wrote...

Judging an alien by its cover isn't as easy as judging a human, sad to say

DEPENDS IF THE ALIEN LIQUIFIES YOU IN ORDER TO GROW A GIANT MACHINE. OR WANTS TO EAT YOU WHOLE.

Yes, I suppose that would allow you to make a rather quick judgement. 

Modifié par MHRazer, 15 avril 2010 - 07:35 .

[Mondo47]

MHRazer wrote...

Sago_mulch wrote...

Mondo47 wrote...

Judging an alien by its cover isn't as easy as judging a human, sad to say

DEPENDS IF THE ALIEN LIQUIFIES YOU IN ORDER TO GROW A GIANT MACHINE. OR WANTS TO EAT YOU WHOLE.

Yes, I suppose that would allow you to make a rather quick judgement. 

Can we point the Reapers at the Quarians and Turans first? They taste like candy

[Jackal904]

royceclemens wrote...

I think the kind of faux-concern that spurred this conversation is reductive and condescending.  The lizard doesn't need help.  The guy with the scars on his face doesn't need help.  The girl in the enviro-suit doesn't need help.  But (GASP!  SHOCK!) the girl with a bald head and tattoos obviously needs special assistance.  Romance is obviously unethical even though it is between two consenting adults.

Yeah I think some people try to exaggerate their LI's emotional state to try and convince people their LI is deep. Or they legitamently think their LI is some tortured soul when they don't hold a candle to Jack. Sure every character has their fair share of problems but Jack has the most legitament issues. And because Jack has deeper issues than their LI, they say she is a psychopath and that she needs a psychologist and not a boyfriend.

Modifié par Jackal904, 15 avril 2010 - 07:43 .

[Mak999]

Jackal904 wrote...

royceclemens wrote...

I think the kind of faux-concern that spurred this conversation is reductive and condescending.  The lizard doesn't need help.  The guy with the scars on his face doesn't need help.  The girl in the enviro-suit doesn't need help.  But (GASP!  SHOCK!) the girl with a bald head and tattoos obviously needs special assistance.  Romance is obviously unethical even though it is between two consenting adults.

Yeah I think some people try to exaggerate their LI's emotional state to try and convince people their LI is deep. Or they legitamently think their LI is some tortured soul when they don't hold a candle to Jack. Sure every character has their fair share of problems but Jack has the most legitament issues. And because Jack has deeper issues than their LI, they say she is a psychopath and that she needs a psychologist and not a boyfriend.

You give her just be friends, but love does not start? And if Jack wants to love herself?

Modifié par Mak999, 15 avril 2010 - 07:57 .

[sm00thie88]

Good evening everyone... wow that's been a long day, up for 18 hours now.

So I'll excuse that I'm to exhausted to read through all the posts made since I left in detail - but what I catched it's about the thought that paragon Shepard romancing Jack unethical is or has this already been answered?

[gneissguy2003]

sm00thie88 wrote...

Good evening everyone... wow that's been a long day, up for 18 hours now.
So I'll excuse that I'm to exhausted to read through all the posts made since I left in detail - but what I catched it's about the thought that paragon Shepard romancing Jack unethical is or has this already been answered?

I believe Royce more or less answered that question in a previous post, and I'm inclined to agree with his assessment.

royceclemens wrote...

In a word: horsecrap.

She has problems of a personal nature, but
they are not psychological.  We are not putting the moves on a crazy
woman.  The fact of the matter is that Jack cares for Shepard.  She
wants a relationship as she's left verbal clues all over the place. 
But she's so afraid of losing something like she lost Murtock that she
won't even try to have it anymore.

The facts are that Jack still
talks to Shepard even after she cops to not wanting a relationship.  No
one gave her truth serum.  She marches up to his cabin before the Omega
4 relay.  He did not knock her out and take her up there.  She wants to
heal herself and part of that means meaning someone to someone else and
admitting that you care.

Look, the "taking advantage of Jack"
argument is an easy one to make, provided you have no capacity for
nuance.  And to be fair, Shepard does slither his way into her brain,
occupy her thoughts and make her do things she wouldn't normally do.

But there's a term for that.

It's called "Falling in love."

[sm00thie88]

gneissguy2003 wrote...

I believe Royce more or less answered that question in a previous post, and I'm inclined to agree with his assessment.

royceclemens wrote...

In a word: horsecrap.

She has problems of a personal nature, but
they are not psychological.  We are not putting the moves on a crazy
woman.  The fact of the matter is that Jack cares for Shepard.  She
wants a relationship as she's left verbal clues all over the place. 
But she's so afraid of losing something like she lost Murtock that she
won't even try to have it anymore.

The facts are that Jack still
talks to Shepard even after she cops to not wanting a relationship.  No
one gave her truth serum.  She marches up to his cabin before the Omega
4 relay.  He did not knock her out and take her up there.  She wants to
heal herself and part of that means meaning someone to someone else and
admitting that you care.

Look, the "taking advantage of Jack"
argument is an easy one to make, provided you have no capacity for
nuance.  And to be fair, Shepard does slither his way into her brain,
occupy her thoughts and make her do things she wouldn't normally do.

But there's a term for that.

It's called "Falling in love."

Thanks for reposting. And I find it funny that people seriously bring up the argument "taking advantage of her", wer are talking about Jack. She's not the type of woman with a bunch of issues that is running around and begging for attention, she's the opposite of that. Besides, she tells you often enough about beeing used (we had this) and as she is enormous smart, clever and calculating (makes her more sexy btw.) she will not let that happen again. So her motives of opening up to Shepard just can't be that he took advantage of her damaged state, but royce put that in words already.

So I'm taking a quick break, smoking

[royceclemens]

Jackal904 wrote...

royceclemens wrote...

I think the kind of faux-concern that spurred this conversation is reductive and condescending.  The lizard doesn't need help.  The guy with the scars on his face doesn't need help.  The girl in the enviro-suit doesn't need help.  But (GASP!  SHOCK!) the girl with a bald head and tattoos obviously needs special assistance.  Romance is obviously unethical even though it is between two consenting adults.

Yeah I think some people try to exaggerate their LI's emotional state to try and convince people their LI is deep. Or they legitamently think their LI is some tortured soul when they don't hold a candle to Jack. Sure every character has their fair share of problems but Jack has the most legitament issues. And because Jack has deeper issues than their LI, they say she is a psychopath and that she needs a psychologist and not a boyfriend.

I think the difference is that the troubles of three of the other four LIs are all internal.  Tali and Thane are both fighting biology.  Garrus struggles with his code of ethics clashing with both his race and the galaxy around him.  None are better or worse than Jack, as this really is all a matter of opinion and whatever floats our boats or finds our lost remotes.

But the difference with Jack is that all her trials are external.  She was acted upon.  Kurt Vonnegut wrote this book called MOTHER NIGHT and there's this scene where a German soldier is talking to an American prisoner and they're talking matters of patriotism, and one of them says that we're all "accidents in geography."  The American could just as easily have been born in Germany and vice-versa, leading each others' lives while coming to the exact same spot on either side of the bars.

What I'm trying to say is that Thane would still have Kepral's syndrome if he had been any other Drell.  Tali still would die of the sniffles were she any other Quarian.  Garrus would still be noble were he any other Turian.  But Jack?  Jack could have been anybody, but the capricious fates determined she be a lab rat, a criminal, warped by the people that surrounded her for short-term gain.  She was an accident of destiny as we all are.

But fate has a habit of being fickle and for every rich Florida homeowner comes a hurricane and for every biotic freight-train can come a Commander Shepard.  She will not admit how much she wants a lifeline, let alone needs one.  She will not admit she is lonely except through Freudian slips.  The question is, can we be the ones who can give her what she needs?

I think so.

Modifié par royceclemens, 15 avril 2010 - 08:20 .

[gneissguy2003]

Jackal904 wrote...

royceclemens wrote...

I think the kind of faux-concern that spurred this conversation is reductive and condescending.  The lizard doesn't need help.  The guy with the scars on his face doesn't need help.  The girl in the enviro-suit doesn't need help.  But (GASP!  SHOCK!) the girl with a bald head and tattoos obviously needs special assistance.  Romance is obviously unethical even though it is between two consenting adults.

Yeah I think some people try to exaggerate their LI's emotional state to try and convince people their LI is deep. Or they legitamently think their LI is some tortured soul when they don't hold a candle to Jack. Sure every character has their fair share of problems but Jack has the most legitament issues. And because Jack has deeper issues than their LI, they say she is a psychopath and that she needs a psychologist and not a boyfriend.

I think it's too easy to fall into the trap of "my favorite character is better than your favorite character". I'm not saying I haven't done that myself, cause God knows I have. But I try to give other people's opinion the benefit of the doubt because a lot of what we love about a character is just so damned subjective. It hits us for reasons that are unique to us, but those same reasons could be what cause others to shy away.

For instance, someone earlier in the thread (I think it was sm00thie) described Samara's character as being 2-dimensional, and some of the Samara fans like Johnny and York took it upon themselves to defend the character as being much more than that because they feel that they have a much better grasp of who that character is and how she ticks. I don't think any true fan of Jack would react much differently should someone come in here and say just that. And, let's face it, over the last page or two we've actually somewhat celebrated the fact that one of this thread's strongest pillars is its members' ability to reject such claims in a civil and heart-felt manner. I think we've been blessed by that but also a bit spoiled.

[gneissguy2003]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

gneissguy2003 wrote...
I believe Royce more or less answered that question in a previous post, and I'm inclined to agree with his assessment.

royceclemens wrote...
In a word: horsecrap.

She has problems of a personal nature, but
they are not psychological.  We are not putting the moves on a crazy
woman.  The fact of the matter is that Jack cares for Shepard.  She
wants a relationship as she's left verbal clues all over the place. 
But she's so afraid of losing something like she lost Murtock that she
won't even try to have it anymore.

I don't see how anyone could go through what Jack has gone through in her life and not have some psychological problems.  I am not saying that this means she is a psycho or lunatic.  Psychological issues cover quite a broad area.  She may just have problems with depression for example, but I think it would be more than this in itself.  She may have trouble coping in a healthy realtionship because of the way she has been treated since childhood by others.  She may have serious anger management issues.  etc...To me, to think that she would not have some psychological issues, would be like assuming a severly abused child of today would not have psychological issues as that child grows into adulthood.

In a way, you could say that we all have psychological issues. None of us is completely 100% straight in the head. However, I think that's what makes certain people interesting and one reason why I don't think saying I come from a dysfunctional family necessarily is a bad thing. In my mind, it all comes down to exactly what those psychological issues are and to what extent they end up manifesting themselves.

Modifié par gneissguy2003, 15 avril 2010 - 08:24 .

[Jackal904]

gneissguy2003 wrote...

Jackal904 wrote...

royceclemens wrote...

I think the kind of faux-concern that spurred this conversation is reductive and condescending.  The lizard doesn't need help.  The guy with the scars on his face doesn't need help.  The girl in the enviro-suit doesn't need help.  But (GASP!  SHOCK!) the girl with a bald head and tattoos obviously needs special assistance.  Romance is obviously unethical even though it is between two consenting adults.

Yeah I think some people try to exaggerate their LI's emotional state to try and convince people their LI is deep. Or they legitamently think their LI is some tortured soul when they don't hold a candle to Jack. Sure every character has their fair share of problems but Jack has the most legitament issues. And because Jack has deeper issues than their LI, they say she is a psychopath and that she needs a psychologist and not a boyfriend.

I think it's too easy to fall into the trap of "my favorite character is better than your favorite character". I'm not saying I haven't done that myself, cause God knows I have. But I try to give other people's opinion the benefit of the doubt because a lot of what we love about a character is just so damned subjective. It hits us for reasons that are unique to us, but those same reasons could be what cause others to shy away.

For instance, someone earlier in the thread (I think it was sm00thie) described Samara's character as being 2-dimensional, and some of the Samara fans like Johnny and York took it upon themselves to defend the character as being much more than that because they feel that they have a much better grasp of who that character is and how she ticks. I don't think any true fan of Jack would react much differently should someone come in here and say just that. And, let's face it, over the last page or two we've actually somewhat celebrated the fact that one of this thread's strongest pillars is its members' ability to reject such claims in a civil and heart-felt manner. I think we've been blessed by that but also a bit spoiled.

I wasn't trying to make it seem like I think Jack is better than everyone else. I actually spent quite some time on that post trying not to convey that lol. Pretty much what I was trying to say was what royce said right after me .

[sm00thie88]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

gneissguy2003 wrote...
I believe Royce more or less answered that question in a previous post, and I'm inclined to agree with his assessment.

royceclemens wrote...
In a word: horsecrap.

She has problems of a personal nature, but
they are not psychological.  We are not putting the moves on a crazy
woman.  The fact of the matter is that Jack cares for Shepard.  She
wants a relationship as she's left verbal clues all over the place. 
But she's so afraid of losing something like she lost Murtock that she
won't even try to have it anymore.

I don't see how anyone could go through what Jack has gone through in her life and not have some psychological problems.  I am not saying that this means she is a psycho or lunatic.  Psychological issues cover quite a broad area.  She may just have problems with depression for example, but I think it would be more than this in itself.  She may have trouble coping in a healthy realtionship because of the way she has been treated since childhood by others.  She may have serious anger management issues.  etc...To me, to think that she would not have some psychological issues, would be like assuming a severly abused child of today would not have psychological issues as that child grows into adulthood.

This is a interesting point. Because, to be honest, that's what I thought at first. She's got a bunch of psychological issues which need to be treated professionally. But on her loyalty mission, some interesting things happen. She discovers things and finds out facts she did remember in a complete different way. But they where there when she was subject in the facility. So here we are, a process of self protection starts. It's proofen, that with a lot of luck and overestimated self protection trauma's happened to you can be twisted around in your memory and therefore not cause immense psychological problems - they cause that what royce mentioned, problems of personal nature.

I replayed the loyalty mission after that another time and that feeling, that Jack could be the lucky one building up a wall of self defense showing threw violence and with that avoiding getting serious, potentially uncurable issues.

Modifié par sm00thie88, 15 avril 2010 - 08:28 .

[royceclemens]

gneissguy2003 wrote...

JohnnyDollar wrote...

gneissguy2003 wrote...
I believe Royce more or less answered that question in a previous post, and I'm inclined to agree with his assessment.

royceclemens wrote...
In a word: horsecrap.

She has problems of a personal nature, but
they are not psychological.  We are not putting the moves on a crazy
woman.  The fact of the matter is that Jack cares for Shepard.  She
wants a relationship as she's left verbal clues all over the place. 
But she's so afraid of losing something like she lost Murtock that she
won't even try to have it anymore.

I don't see how anyone could go through what Jack has gone through in her life and not have some psychological problems.  I am not saying that this means she is a psycho or lunatic.  Psychological issues cover quite a broad area.  She may just have problems with depression for example, but I think it would be more than this in itself.  She may have trouble coping in a healthy realtionship because of the way she has been treated since childhood by others.  She may have serious anger management issues.  etc...To me, to think that she would not have some psychological issues, would be like assuming a severly abused child of today would not have psychological issues as that child grows into adulthood.

In a way, you could say that we all have psychological issues. None of us is completely 100% straight in the head. However, I think that's what makes certain people interesting and one reason why I don't think saying I come from a dysfunctional family necessarily is a bad thing. In my mind, it all comes down to exactly what those psychological issues are and to what extent they end up manifesting themselves.

Does Jack have behavioral problems?  Of course.  Behavioral problems are much different than textbook psychological problems, as the latter require medication and a professional observation.  The argument is predicated on the assumption that Jack isn't responsible for her actions and that she presents an involuntary danger to herself and others.  If this were the case then I'd wholeheartedly agree that romance truly isn't her best course. 

But I don't believe it.  Jack has had a lot of monsters under her bed and precious little options.  She knows how she deals with things isn't something that a well-adjusted person does but she still does it not because she can't help herself, but because it "works."  At least in her worldview it does.