20813 réponses à ce sujet

[royceclemens]

yorkj86 wrote...

Samara is sent in because the people she is directed to kill have killed or corrupted everyone else who has been sent before her.  Notice, she is good at killing, and incorruptible.  A Justicar is a brute-force, last resort for a problem that has resisted solution.  Assigning a Justicar to a problem is a recognition that all else has failed, but something still needs to be done.

The Code is imperfect.  Samara is imperfect.  Justice is imperfect.  The Law is imperfect. 

Samara is just as much the Law as Judge Dredd is the Law, and both operate similarly.  In fact, Judges and Justicars are pretty much the same thing.  Well, almost.

I'd liken her more to Inspector Javert, who devoted his life to re-imprisoning an escaped convict who did nothing more than steal a loaf of bread.  When finding out that this criminal was a good man, Javert committed suicide, as his worldview was destroyed.  But even Javert made room in his mind, even if at only at the very end, that he may have been wrong, Samara won't even give that little bit.  Javert was unaware that there was complexity and shades of gray.  Samara is aware of this, but proceeds anyway.

But one thing, I'm curious about your reply.  You say she's been sent, but I thought it was established that Justicars are lone operatives that had no governing body.  Doesn't that mean Samara would actually go looking for injustice?  And doesn't that bespeak more of personal bloodlust than an overweening thirst for justice?

[Heart Collector]

MHRazer wrote...
Could Jack actually beat Samara though? I don't know. I think yes, especially if you take Jack's Purgatory cutscene into account. (That's the kind of survival-mode-biotic-bulldozer-no-hesitation I'm talking about.)

I think Jack would win if she caught Samara by surprise, or if Samara underestimated her... Her brute biotic force could be too much even for a biotic powerhouse like Samara to handle... Otherwise Samara's experience, efficiency and cold calculation in conjunction with her own raw power would help her prevail.

[royceclemens]

Quoth yorkj86: "Elaborate upon what you mean by "the code ain't hers." She makes it her own, as does every Justicar. She discards her previous life adopts the life of the Justicar."



The Code is 5000 sutras on any possible situation. I don't think Samara wrote those sutras. Someone else did. Which leads me to believe that she read the code and liked what she saw.

[royceclemens]

yorkj86 wrote...

royceclemens wrote...

yorkj86 wrote...

Samara is sent in because the people she is directed to kill have killed or corrupted everyone else who has been sent before her.  Notice, she is good at killing, and incorruptible.  A Justicar is a brute-force, last resort for a problem that has resisted solution.  Assigning a Justicar to a problem is a recognition that all else has failed, but something still needs to be done.

The Code is imperfect.  Samara is imperfect.  Justice is imperfect.  The Law is imperfect. 

Samara is just as much the Law as Judge Dredd is the Law, and both operate similarly.  In fact, Judges and Justicars are pretty much the same thing.  Well, almost.

I'd liken her more to Inspector Javert, who devoted his life to re-imprisoning an escaped convict who did nothing more than steal a loaf of bread.  When finding out that this criminal was a good man, Javert committed suicide, as his worldview was destroyed.  But even Javert made room in his mind, even if at only at the very end, that he may have been wrong, Samara won't even give that little bit.  Javert was unaware that there was complexity and shades of gray.  Samara is aware of this, but proceeds anyway.

But one thing, I'm curious about your reply.  You say she's been sent, but I thought it was established that Justicars are lone operatives that had no governing body.  Doesn't that mean Samara would actually go looking for injustice?  And doesn't that bespeak more of personal bloodlust than an overweening thirst for justice?

If Samara won't admit that she's wrong, and/or that the Code is wrong, it's because she believes in Justice as a meta-principle.  Justice is supposed to be impartial.  If the Justice System fails us, we amend it, as was done with the Oaths of Subsumation, but to throw it out altogether is just asking for it.

Ah, but we're comparing apples and oranges.  The justice system is an element of government that is accountable not only to the citizenry, but to other branches of governance.  Justicars are a monastic order accountable only to themselves.  The justice system is less personal that what the Justicars apparently do.  Government work is governrment work while being a Justicar, to hear Samara tell it, is more of a personal calling.  Don't you think that it's at least a little bit possible that Samara heeded this personal call because the thought of killing people appealed to her?

And where did you get that the Oaths could be amended?  Was that in the codex and I just missed it?

Y'know, I like these compare and contrast things we do with Jack.  Which one should we do next?

[Mondo47]

royceclemens wrote...

Y'know, I like these compare and contrast things we do with Jack.  Which one should we do next?

Let's not do Jack and Miranda, ok? Thanks to Bobby and a pack of perverted ladies (ahem) that one's been buried well and truly... it degenerated into a Top/Bottom debate that took in far too much BDSM subculture

Only with more biotics.

[Jackal904]

MHRazer wrote...

Now maybe if she got Samara to a point where she had beaten her, Samara was defenseless, and all that was left was to deal the final blow - then Jack might hesitate. But I imagine that would only be if Shepard had changed her a bit through the Paragon romance, because if not Jack says she always does "the smart thing," and letting Samara live to try and kill you again another day would definitely not be the smart thing. 

That's what I'm refering too. Once the fight gets going I don't think Jack will suddenly stop right in the middle of the fight. But if Jack were to get Samara in a position where Samara is down for the count, and all Jack would need to do is deal the killing blow, then I think Jack would hesitate, and then Samara would probably take that opportunity to knock Jack in a position where she can deal the final blow.

It's like in the fight between Samara and Morinth where Samara knocks Morinth to the ground and walks over her and deals that final, killing blow.

Of course Jack could kill Samara outright before a scenario like that even pops up.

[royceclemens]

yorkj86 wrote...

Regarding Oaths being amended - The Oaths were created because of a general concern among the Asari populace that the Justicars would rearrange the order of things to benefit themselves, or stage a coup if the state of things were not to their liking/not up to the standards of the Code.  The Code, thus, is subserviant to the rest of Asari society.

So if The Oaths are structured to fit Asari societal mores, what if said mores become corrupt?  If Justicars protect an ideal, and the ideal falls, then what is the use of The Code?  They fight for justice until the definition of justice changes?

And actually, Mondo, I was thinking more of the "who-would-win-in-a-fight?" variety, and between Jack and that insecure, no-business-having, rat-soup-eating, no-barrier-maintaining wench, it ain't even a contest. 

[Mondo47]

royceclemens wrote...

And actually, Mondo, I was thinking more of the "who-would-win-in-a-fight?" variety, and between Jack and that insecure, no-business-having, rat-soup-eating, no-barrier-maintaining wench, it ain't even a contest. 

I know - I just have this Nostradamus-like sense of knowing it would degenerate into a perv's paradise

And hats off for the Dolomite reference!

Modifié par Mondo47, 16 avril 2010 - 03:43 .

[Jackal904]

royceclemens wrote...

And actually, Mondo, I was thinking more of the "who-would-win-in-a-fight?" variety, and between Jack and that insecure, no-business-having, rat-soup-eating, no-barrier-maintaining wench, it ain't even a contest. 

I can't really think of a squadmate besides Samara who could put up a decent fight with Jack. I picture Mordin being able to do some sneaky, almost cheap-like tactic that would allow him to win. I don't know why. Like Mordin will be getting his ass kicked and then Jack gets close to him and he does the vulcan nerve pinch or something and renders her unconcious.

Modifié par Jackal904, 16 avril 2010 - 03:55 .

[Pacifien]

So.... what kind of sports do you think Jack would like?

[royceclemens]

yorkj86 wrote...
If such a drastic change in mores were to change, the Code would have to follow suit, but I think you're bringing up an unfair and extreme example.  If rape, theft and murder were to become acceptable, than the Code itself has failed in its very purpose, as would be the case with the Justice system humans use.

It doesn't have to be drastic.  What if, for example, the Asari decided, that, for matters of convenience, there was no room for Justicars anymore?  That they presented a diplomatic threat to galactic expansion.  Would you think The Code would make room for potential obsolescence?  Would they just fade away?  That didn't work too well for the Grey Wardens.

Mondo47 wrote...
And hats off for the Dolomite reference!

Break out some Victor Hugo, and no one says anything.  Break out some DOLOMITE and then I get the hats off.  But thank you, Mondo, my partner in obscure pop culture.

Jackal904 wrote...
I can't really think of a squadmate besides Samara who could put up a decent fight with Jack. I picture Mordin being able to do some sneaky, almost cheap-like tactic that would allow him to win. I don't know why. Like Mordin will be getting his ass kicked and then Jack gets close to him and he does the vulcan nerve pinch or something and renders her unconcious.

To be honest?  I wouldn't count Tali out.  And yes, I'm dead serious.

Modifié par royceclemens, 16 avril 2010 - 04:01 .

[MHRazer]

Pacifien wrote...

So.... what kind of sports do you think Jack would like?

Tetherball. Not sure why.

[Pacifien]

MHRazer wrote...

Pacifien wrote...

So.... what kind of sports do you think Jack would like?

Tetherball. Not sure why.

She's probably the reason all those Tetherball poles in the recess yard were mysteriously missing the actual tetherball.

[adriano_c]

Not a sport, but I could see her bowling in Omega!

[Mak999]

Nobody noticed a scar on his neck Jack?

[Jackal904]

royceclemens wrote...

To be honest?  I wouldn't count Tali out.  And yes, I'm dead serious.

Lol really? Would you mind elaborating? Unless she creates an army of drones I don't she how she stands a fraction of a chance against Jack. In fact if all squadmates were to just have a giant free for all, I'd say Tali would be the first to go. Well, actually probably Jacob would die first, then Tali.