20813 réponses à ce sujet

[Shazzammer2]

Hello Jack fans. Just dropping by and showing my support.I finished a drawing which has Jack in it.





I'm just going around posting this baby in all the support threads. Anywho, hope ya'll enjoy. Oh and by the way, I did this just for fun. I meant no ill by drawing this. Anywho Enjoy.

[axl99]

Well thankfully not every male is a misogynist, otherwise we wouldnt' even be having this thread here.

Modifié par axl99, 03 mai 2010 - 03:40 .

[Collider]

I don't understand the manipulation thing...none of the romances really involve manipulation to be honest.

[royceclemens]

axl99 wrote...

One can say the process of wooing Miranda/Jacob also involves turning them against the Illusive Man. Tali/Kelly/Thane/Garrus may also probably there because some of the players just want the smex. Even Ashley or Kaiden from the first game can be "convinced" to change the way they think about the Council/Alliance/aliens in general.

So yeah, when it comes down to it there's manipulation on the player's part to drag out any form of like-minded affection out of people.

With Jack, you can hardly find her being verbally affectionate with you. She still sitting on her haunches eyeing you up one way or another.

Well, the way I see it, all the LIs in the game (save Kelly who's just Moneypenny and doesn't count anyway) are all trapped in wars with themselves, be it one aspect or another.

Jack: Past
Jacob: Paranoia
Miranda: Self-Esteem
Tali: Biology
Thane: Mortality
Garrus: Competence

But where Jack is different (and is the part that throws most people off, I'd imagine) is that talking to her is an innate paradox.  For someone who literally wears her past on her arm (and her back, and her chest, and her head), she's not one for straight answers when directly questioned.  She doesn't use her past as an invitation, but more as a double-dog-dare that she has a hard time backing up when called on it. 

I see Jack's past not as some garegantuan tide she needs to brave but something she uses as a hard cutting tool, like a siren uses her voice, leading the weak to the rocks.  I think the problem a lot of gamers have is that they just see the past, and I can't blame them, that's a lot of horrible stuff.  But they're neglecting how Jack uses it.  They miss the forest for the trees. 

[Collider]

I'm not sure I understand those wars for Garrus and Jacob...I agree with the other ones, just not sure what you mean by those two.

[royceclemens]

Collider wrote...

I'm not sure I understand those wars for Garrus and Jacob...I agree with the other ones, just not sure what you mean by those two.

Well, nothing's gone right with Garrus.  He left C-Sec, didn't get into the Spectres and got his squad killed.  Most might see that as a severe run of bad luck, but with the honorbound Garrus, he thinks it has something to do with him specifically.  That's why he tries so hard and is so awkward during the romance.  He has this one little thing in front of him and if he can do that right, then that opens the door for other stuff.

And Jacob (whose romance is actually really good up until the infamous love scene until it just craters) is stuck in a position where he's surrounded by people who aren't what they seem.  He doesn't trust the Alliance because they don't get anything done.  He doesn't trust Cerberus because they give less of a crap about him and more of a crap about what makes hm tick.  So during his romance thread (which, it should be reiterated, is with someone in position of authority within an organization he has no respect for) you see Jacob desperately covering his bases for his own protection while still moving forward with Shepard.  Yeah, it probably won't work out... But what if it does?

[Collider]

I see, those are all good points. I thought that your competence thing had something to do with his squad being killed, yea. I can see that. The paranoia thing with Jacob sounded like he was afraid of getting stabbed in the back. I think his problem, as you said, is that he's in limbo all the time, the Alliance isn't doing jack but Cerberus is corrupt and unseemly. Like Jack said, he doesn't really know who he is.



I think the principal problem with Jacob's romance, besides the romance scene before the suicide mission, is more about Shepard than anything else. She's sounds like a predator and gives off that cheesy seductress vibe with what she says and how she says it. The romance would have benefitted more from them becoming friends and steadily building feelings for each other. I did like that Jacob asked Shepard essentially how she was holding up, the only other romance that I know of that did that (in the ME games) was Thane would you can't actually say anything other than "I'm fine."

[Jackal904]

royceclemens wrote...

I tend to get a little cross-eyed when someone suggests that the Jack romance is a "manipulation."  Like the girl is impaired on a basic decision-making level.

That irritates the hell out of me when people say that. Like Shepard has some hidden agenda or is taking advantage of her or is just trying to get in her pants even though you've clearly denied the opportunity for a one night stand. I'm totally baffled by people who think Jack's romance doesn't make sense or is just sexual healing. Those who make those arguements clearly have not experienced her paragon romance.

And unless the player has some hidden agenda, you can't say Shepard does.

Modifié par Jackal904, 03 mai 2010 - 04:10 .

[Collider]

Yea, I agree with Jackal. What kind of ulterior motive would Shepard have? If it was just sex, he already had the opportunity for that yet declined.

[axl99]

That's almost like asking how many players were in it just for the challenge. Not that it's a completely bad thing, I mean it's the whole "seeing how she ticks" schtick. Players have a choice.

I mean Jack really makes you work for her affection. And even after all is said and done she's still tentative about it, as if she's waiting for your next move, but really is waiting for an opportunity to see how you tick too.

Modifié par axl99, 03 mai 2010 - 04:21 .

[drunken pyromaniac]

Manipulation? That makes no sense. If Shepard was manipulating her he would have gone for the cargo hold encounter. My Shepard at least genuinely cared for Jack.

[royceclemens]

Collider wrote...

I think the principal problem with Jacob's romance, besides the romance scene before the suicide mission, is more about Shepard than anything else. She's sounds like a predator and gives off that cheesy seductress vibe with what she says and how she says it. The romance would have benefitted more from them becoming friends and steadily building feelings for each other. I did like that Jacob asked Shepard essentially how she was holding up, the only other romance that I know of that did that (in the ME games) was Thane would you can't actually say anything other than "I'm fine."

Ugh.  Now I'm gonna have to be fair to Jacob.  Not an enviable task, I assure you.

I get the whole "sexual predator" vibe with Shepard, but look at who she's dealing with.  When you first broach the subject of romance with him, his response is essentially "WHAAAAAA?"  Now I'm not gonna go so far as to say he's on the dim side, but he does have tunnel vision.  Subtlety would not work.  Dude needs everyting short of blasting caps.

And note that after the ice is broken, Shepard tones the routine down and they talk to each other like regular people... Until the romance scene.

But, yeah, axl, the challenge is a healthy part of the fun when dealing with Jack.  I said earlier that Jack uses her past like a siren uses her voice?  Well, the only person to come out of a siren encounter alive was Odysseus... And who doesn't want to be Odysseus?

The sheer visceral pleasure of the Jack romance is the game of "Now What?" between Jack and Shepard.  Swear like a sailor and try to push me away?  I'm still here, Now What?  Come on to me trying to reveal me as a weak horndog?  I'm not biting because I actually care about you, Now What?  Tell me you don't want this to work?  I don't believe you, Now What?  Try to scare me away with your tale of lost love?  I don't scare, Now What?

...

"Goddammit..."

Modifié par royceclemens, 03 mai 2010 - 04:34 .

[Dominus5412]

yorkj86 wrote...

I was thinking more like, "Shepard-chan, am I kawaii?  uguu~~"

Translators note: Kawaii means cute.

[Errationatus]

royceclemens wrote...

>SNIP<

The sheer visceral pleasure of the Jack romance is the game of "Now What?" between Jack and Shepard.  Swear like a sailor and try to push me away?  I'm still here, Now What?  Come on to me trying to reveal me as a weak horndog?  I'm not biting because I actually care about you, Now What?  Tell me you don't want this to work?  I don't believe you, Now What?  Try to scare me away with your tale of lost love?  I don't scare, Now What?

...

"Goddammit..."

IMO, Jack is the only "real" woman in the entire game.  Despite how it looks, ('bikeresque badass') Jack really isn't either a cliche or a stereotype when it comes down to her personality.  Any relationship worth the pursuing is just as you've described:  I've gotten this far, now what?

I'm also of the opinion that there was no sex in Jack's denouement.  It would have just been... tacky.

Miranda?  The rich chick with the smoke'n bod who basically bangs you because you're cool.   She'll drop you as fast as she dropped Jacob.  Y'know what?  You probably won't give a crap.  Control chip this, beeatch.

Tali?  Tali may as well be the anime chick, the one that gets all the latent pedo-yearnings of the neckbeards up and vibrating.  As sweet as she is, she's got the personality of a popsicle.  Eventually, that sweet 'n' cute's gonna wear off and get annoying as hell.

Kelly?  Who cares?  A psychologist with the heart of a stripper?  Ho-kay.  Pass, thanks.  A big, big thumbs up for the "empowerment" thing, but a big thumbs down for the presentation, yah?

But Jack...  Jack will never give you a goddamn inch, never ever allow you to take her for granted, and by hell's triple gates, without the respect she deserves and the honest honest time required to even get a glimpse of the woman she can be, the only priiize you'll get is a biotically-amped elbow in the throat.

There's a reason, I think, as to why women seem to be in the majority when it comes to liking Jack - it's simple:  ask any woman who has had to work three times as hard, hide her femininity, endure the neverending male predation (real or metaphorical) and come out on the end any man's equal or better and they'll tell you why:  Jack is one of them.

They dislike Miri and Tali because they're cliches - pure artifice and male fantasy driven.  Not Jack.  

The others are shallow facets of women.  Jack is a real woman and worth every minute you take to find that out.

She doesn't have to be good enough for you.  You have to be good enough for her.

Just plunking down my 7.5 (Canadian economy) worth.  Sorry for the WOT.

Modifié par JakeMacDon, 03 mai 2010 - 07:51 .

[Collider]

That's an interesting take on Jack. Aside from your opinion on Miranda and Tali, I agree with you. On that note, your dismissal of the other characters reminds me of the dismissal of Jack that many people have done.

[Collider]

@Royce - That's one way to interpret it. In the grand scheme of things, everything Bioware did was deliberate. That would include the way FemShep spoke to Jacob. The key thing is that while speaking to him she takes on this tone that deviates from how she basically speaks to everyone else. It's very immersion breaking because on one hand you have this hardass tough soldier (femShep) but on the other hand she's trying to be seductress while talking to Jacob, as there's two people and not one. The fact that she was so forward and her voice changed for some reason is the reason why many people are turned off by it.

[Nivenus]

JakeMacDon wrote...

royceclemens wrote...

>SNIP<

The sheer visceral pleasure of the Jack romance is the game of "Now What?" between Jack and Shepard.  Swear like a sailor and try to push me away?  I'm still here, Now What?  Come on to me trying to reveal me as a weak horndog?  I'm not biting because I actually care about you, Now What?  Tell me you don't want this to work?  I don't believe you, Now What?  Try to scare me away with your tale of lost love?  I don't scare, Now What?

...

"Goddammit..."

IMO, Jack is the only "real" woman in the entire game.  Despite how it looks, ('bikeresque badass') Jack really isn't either a cliche or a stereotype when it comes down to her personality.  Any relationship worth the pursuing is just as you've described:  I've gotten this far, now what?

I'm also of the opinion that there was no sex in Jack's denouement.  It would have just been... tacky.

Miranda?  The rich chick with the smoke'n bod who basically bangs you because you're cool.   She'll drop you as fast as she dropped Jacob.  Y'know what?  You probably won't give a crap.  Control chip this, beeatch.

Tali?  Tali may as well be the anime chick, the one that gets all the latent pedo-yearnings of the neckbeards up and vibrating.  As sweet as she is, she's got the personality of a popsicle.  Eventually, that sweet 'n' cute's gonna wear off and get annoying as hell.

Kelly?  Who cares?  A psychologist with the heart of a stripper?  Ho-kay.  Pass, thanks.  A big, big thumbs up for the "empowerment" thing, but a big thumbs down for the presentation, yah?

But Jack...  Jack will never give you a goddamn inch, never ever allow you to take her for granted, and by hell's triple gates, without the respect she deserves and the honest honest time required to even get a glimpse of the woman she can be, the only priiize you'll get is a biotically-amped elbow in the throat.

There's a reason, I think, as to why women seem to be in the majority when it comes to liking Jack - it's simple:  ask any woman who has had to work three times as hard, hide her femininity, endure the neverending male predation (real or metaphorical) and come out on the end any man's equal or better and they'll tell you why:  Jack is one of them.

They dislike Miri and Tali because they're cliches - pure artifice and male fantasy driven.  Not Jack.  

The others are shallow facets of women.  Jack is a real woman and worth every minute you take to find that out.

She doesn't have to be good enough for you.  You have to be good enough for her.

Just plunking down my 7.5 (Canadian economy) worth.  Sorry for the WOT.

Gotta disagree. While you make some very good points you through it too much character assassination for me to overlook the weak points of your argument.

First of all, Jack is far too traumatized to be a good role model for women. She may be fiercely independent and unwilling to take crap from others - and that's definitely a good thing - but it gets to a point where, unless you paragon romance her, she absolutely refuses to trust in anyone. That's not healthy. Not in the least. She also gets a kick off of killing and is excessively violent - not as much as I expected her to be (she's definitely not a psychopath the way BioWare advertised her) and has a derogatory view of others that only serves to push them away.

Jack's as much the model woman as Thane's the model man. Which is to say, not at all once you take a look at their dark side. I'm not saying Jack's evil - hardly - and she amazed me with her complexity and depth. I'm just saying, I think you're being too easy on her and too hard on the others. They all have their weaknesses and flaws, alongside their strengths.

[Errationatus]

Collider wrote...

That's an interesting take on Jack. Aside from your opinion on Miranda and Tali, I agree with you. On that note, your dismissal of the other characters reminds me of the dismissal of Jack that many people have done.

Don't get me wrong, Collider, I'm for giving Miri and Tali their dues, but they were created to be what they are - teenboy fodder and fanservice.  As a 'person', Tali was far more interesting when you couldn't romance her, and IMO, they did her character no justice in this installment of the game.

Tali's crush on my Shepard made me uncomfortable.  She struck me as being more mature on her Pilgrimage than after it.  It felt like giving into to a buddy's little sister who'd had a crush on you "all this time" and was now legal, as it were.  I did her romance, but I felt like a bit of a scumbag afterward.  Maybe that's just me, though.

As to Miranda - don't get me wrong, she's a powerful, self-actualized woman who can stand next to any man as an equal partner in any venture - but in the end, it won't be about a partnership, it'll be about what you can do for her. 

Kelly...  is just available, and that just bugs me a bit too much.  Again, that may just be me either reading too much into it - or just not seeing enough.

What can I say?  IMO, Jack just make's 'em all pale and flat by comparison.  Just biased, I guess.

[Collider]

I also tend to dislike this "real" woman baloney. There is no "real" woman. Part of my aversion to this is the fact that the whole "real" woman business has its roots in history as sexism - for many cultures the "real" woman was the homemaker who was not educated. Women are women, trying to push gender roles onto them is bad in general.

Modifié par Collider, 03 mai 2010 - 08:14 .

[Nivenus]

JakeMacDon wrote...

Collider wrote...

That's an interesting take on Jack. Aside from your opinion on Miranda and Tali, I agree with you. On that note, your dismissal of the other characters reminds me of the dismissal of Jack that many people have done.

Don't get me wrong, Collider, I'm for giving Miri and Tali their dues, but they were created to be what they are - teenboy fodder and fanservice.  As a 'person', Tali was far more interesting when you couldn't romance her, and IMO, they did her character no justice in this installment of the game.

I can see why Tali's crush might make you uncomfortable, but I wholly disagree - even insofar as Miranda, who was clearly ME2's designated Ms. Fanservice is concerned. Furthermore, I went into ME2 with no interest in Tali romantically and was impressed by her personality shift even before I knew she was an LI. So I think you're making a big assumption here. I know there's plenty of women and men who didn't romance Tali who think her personality showed a nice upgrade in ME2. Similarly, I think Miranda's a well-written character and saying she's only there for fan service is a discredit to her character.

Though I will grant you one thing - even though Jack runs around half-naked, Miranda comes off as ten times more fan servicey with her outfit and the obnoxious male gaze factor.

[Collider]

JakeMacDon wrote...
Don't get me wrong, Collider, I'm for giving Miri and Tali their dues, but they were created to be what they are - teenboy fodder and fanservice.

Tali was created first not as a romance interest, but as a non-romance squad mate in ME1, so that's already wrong. I don't really think you are giving those characters their due. Any character can be reduced to unflattering cliches and tropes - even Jack. She's the "riot girl" & "bad girl" (see title) who doesn't take crap from no one and gets what she wants. That's nothing new in fiction. There is apparently, from what I've heard, the stereotype that all the troubled woman needs is a good man. But you would agree with that one would be doing her character a disservice by reducing her to this, probably.

Tali's crush on my Shepard made me uncomfortable.  She struck me as being more mature on her Pilgrimage than after it.  It felt like giving into to a buddy's little sister who'd had a crush on you "all this time" and was now legal, as it were.  I did her romance, but I felt like a bit of a scumbag afterward.  Maybe that's just me, though.

There's a simple solution. Tell her you're not interested. You don't have to play Shepard as you would act in his shoes, Shepard can easily be played as someone who genuinely cares for Tali and is not being predatory. That is infact how the romance is, there's no "I just want to get you in bed" that there is for other romances.

Modifié par Collider, 03 mai 2010 - 08:16 .