20813 réponses à ce sujet

[Errationatus]

Nivenus wrote...

Gotta disagree. While you make some very good points you through it too much character assassination for me to overlook the weak points of your argument.

First of all, Jack is far too traumatized to be a good role model for women.

Really?  I see a woman who has had some horrific things done to her, but traumatized?  Talitha (From "I Remember Me" in ME1) was traumatized.  Jack is not traumatized.  Jack is supremely pissed off, but not traumatized.  There's nothing broken in Jack - it's battered, dented and bloody, but not broken.  She keeps going, and yeah, she's bitter, but she can still trust (Murtoch, anyone?) - and that alone says she's still in one piece.  Jack is a superb realist - and the only pity in that is how she came to that state.

She may be fiercely independent and unwilling to take crap from others - and that's definitely a good thing - but it gets to a point where, unless you paragon romance her, she absolutely refuses to trust in anyone. That's not healthy.

So?  Why should she?  I don't trust anyone without damn good reasons either.  Anyone who is willing to instantly trust people are called victims - and rightly so.  Not healthy?  Not hardly.

Not in the least. She also gets a kick off of killing and is excessively violent - not as much as I expected her to be (she's definitely not a psychopath the way BioWare advertised her)

That's not her fault - she was conditioned to be that way.   Conditioning can be broken.

and has a derogatory view of others that only serves to push them away.

For their own sakes.  Jack is trouble and she knows it.  Everyone she ever allowed herself to care about is dead.  To Jack, diving into a pack of Blue Suns mercs is nothing.  Love?  That's risky. 

Hell, it's risky for everybody.

Jack's as much the model woman as Thane's the model man.

Really?  Thane?  He and Samara should get together.  They can be sacrificingly stoic together.

Which is to say, not at all once you take a look at their dark side.

Thane's sensitivity - if you care to call it that - comes from his disconnect and eiditic memory.  He's sensitive the way a priest or monk is sensitive, and if you're looking for spiritual guidance (or a doubletalk excuse to kill without guilt  - at least Jack has some remorse), then he's a humdinger.   He's the tragic knight figure.  And a needy, clingy one, at that.

I'm not saying Jack's evil - hardly - and she amazed me with her complexity and depth. I'm just saying, I think you're being too easy on her and too hard on the others. They all have their weaknesses and flaws, alongside their strengths.

You're absolutely correct.  They have their strengths.    But they don't have Jack's strength.  Not even close.

Modifié par JakeMacDon, 03 mai 2010 - 08:36 .

[royceclemens]

Well, I appreciate the gung-ho attitude there, Jake, and yes, Jack is the only one who comes close to resembling how complicated an actual human being is.  I believe it was Mondo who was gobsmacked when she found out there were no female writers on the ME2 staff.

But I'm afraid issue must be taken with your stance on the other two.  Tali?  I like Tali.  Think she's great.  She's, well...



And if you have a problem with Willow Rosenberg, sir, then I shall have to ask you to step outside!

And Miranda?  Well, I don't "hate" Miranda, just... Y'know... The guts part of her.  But even I know when to be fair.  I consider Miranda a lost opportunity.  The girl has serious self-esteem issues (whether earned or not, I could debate amongst just myself all day) but her writer just didn't seem to use it well.  Nothing really came of it, so she just careened from mood to mood during her scenes.  It was like the stages of grief playing out.  Even her last scene before the Engine Room Floor Mambo was something to the tune of "I think we're crazy for getting into this, Shepard, but if you want to, I'll be around when things are quiet."  That's the Acceptance stage!

But there's room for development and I think it's coming.  They wouldn't have given her all that plot armor unless there was something the devs wanted to show us about her.  For al I know, I could have a complete turnaround in opinion by the time ME3 rolls around.  There's a character there, she just hasn't been shown to us very well yet.

The facts of the matter are these:

Were there no Miranda, a great many people on this forum (myself included) would complain that there are no face-meltingly hot seductresses on board to simply get your rocks off with.

Were there no Tali, a great many people on this forum (myself included) would complain that there isn't a nice, sweet girl on board they could just relate to.

And were there no Jack, a great many people on this forum (myself included) would complain that there isn't a love interest with a whole lot of depth or complication.

But all three of them are there, each reaching parts the other just quite can't. 

[Nivenus]

JakeMacDon wrote...

Nivenus wrote...

Gotta disagree. While you make some very good points you through it too much character assassination for me to overlook the weak points of your argument.

First of all, Jack is far too traumatized to be a good role model for women.

Really?  I see a woman who has had some horrific things done to her, but traumatized?  Talitha (From "I Remember Me" in ME1) was traumatized.  Jack is not traumatized.  Jack is supremely pissed off, but not traumatized.  There's nothing broken in Jack - it's battered, dented and bloody, but not broken.  She keeps going, and yeah, she's bitter, but she can still trust (Murtoch, anyone?) - and that alone says she's still in one piece.  Jack is a superb realist - and the only pity in that is how she came to that state.

No one can go through what Jack went through and come out intact on the other side. To say otherwise is disrespectful to rape and child abuse victims everywhere.

Modifié par Nivenus, 03 mai 2010 - 08:37 .

[Collider]

royceclemens wrote...

Well, I appreciate the gung-ho attitude there, Jake, and yes, Jack is the only one who comes close to resembling how complicated an actual human being is.  I believe it was Mondo who was gobsmacked when she found out there were no female writers on the ME2 staff.

No wonder Jacob's romance scene turned out as it did Not that I had any doubt that there were no female writers in context of that. That's part of why Alistair was so well received by women (barring of course the endings...was bittersweet at best), likely Gaider discussed with them what would and would not work with a female audience.

[Errationatus]

Collider wrote...

I also tend to dislike this "real" woman baloney. There is no "real" woman. Part of my aversion to this is the fact that the whole "real" woman business has its roots in history as sexism - for many cultures the "real" woman was the homemaker who was not educated. Women are women, trying to push gender roles onto them is bad in general.

I agree absolutely.  My fault for not qualifiying that statement - what I had meant to convey was that Jack is the only real woman in the sense of not being a cliche.  Her look is the cliche, not the person she's meant to be. 

She's the most "real person" of the women in the game to me, if that makes any sense.

[Azint]

Chosen romances are subject to preference. No need to argue, and to say one's own preferences are superior to that of another already explains enough about the speaker.

[Collider]

JakeMacDon wrote...

Collider wrote...

I also tend to dislike this "real" woman baloney. There is no "real" woman. Part of my aversion to this is the fact that the whole "real" woman business has its roots in history as sexism - for many cultures the "real" woman was the homemaker who was not educated. Women are women, trying to push gender roles onto them is bad in general.

I agree absolutely.  My fault for not qualifiying that statement - what I had meant to convey was that Jack is the only real woman in the sense of not being a cliche.  Her look is the cliche, not the person she's meant to be. 

She's the most "real person" of the women in the game to me, if that makes any sense.

I see. You can imagine how easy it was to misinterpret you. I'm pretty staunchy against the concept of gender roles, so yea, I tend to react more strongly towards hinting. I really don't think any of the female characters in ME2, aside from possibly Kelly (poor Kelly) is "cliche." I may reiterate that one cannot reduce any character to cliches, because everything been done already. The shy dorky girl's been done, the professional, cold woman has been done, and the riot girl with the mouth of a sailor cliche has also been done. What's important is that the writers add complexity to these "cliches" by adding layers upon layers, as you can see with Jack.

[Errationatus]

Nivenus wrote...

I can see why Tali's crush might make you uncomfortable, but I wholly disagree - even insofar as Miranda, who was clearly ME2's designated Ms. Fanservice is concerned. Furthermore, I went into ME2 with no interest in Tali romantically and was impressed by her personality shift even before I knew she was an LI. So I think you're making a big assumption here. I know there's plenty of women and men who didn't romance Tali who think her personality showed a nice upgrade in ME2. Similarly, I think Miranda's a well-written character and saying she's only there for fan service is a discredit to her character.

Though I will grant you one thing - even though Jack runs around half-naked, Miranda comes off as ten times more fan servicey with her outfit and the obnoxious male gaze factor.

Indeed.  Again - and I want to make this clear that everything I say is simply my own demented opinion - I too had no idea initially that Tali was romancable when first eagerly diving into the game.  And the first time I romanced her, I thought how sweet she was, and had a rather favorable view of her character - I still do - and despite how it looks, I actually like them all (except Kelly).  But... do Tali's romance more than once, and it goes a little flat.  I will admit I cannot truely fathom the fanaticism for her character.  She's not that interesting.  I also don't think her personality shifted all that much.  If it did, it was more subtle than I noticed. 

Miranda - had she more depth to her personality - would have rocked as an LI, but she didn't really impress me, as lovely as she is. 

Again, don't get me wrong, they are well done, no question.  If they weren't there would be no debate about their appeal or lack thereof.  I just happen to think they could have been better - like Jack.

[royceclemens]

Collider wrote...

royceclemens wrote...

Well, I appreciate the gung-ho attitude there, Jake, and yes, Jack is the only one who comes close to resembling how complicated an actual human being is.  I believe it was Mondo who was gobsmacked when she found out there were no female writers on the ME2 staff.

No wonder Jacob's romance scene turned out as it did Not that I had any doubt that there were no female writers in context of that. That's part of why Alistair was so well received by women (barring of course the endings...was bittersweet at best), likely Gaider discussed with them what would and would not work with a female audience.

I've tried to make the argument for some female presence in the ME writing staff for a while now.  While ME2 had none, DA:O had three.  Draw from that whatever conclusions you wish.

[Collider]

royceclemens wrote...
I've tried to make the argument for some female presence in the ME writing staff for a while now.  While ME2 had none, DA:O had three.  Draw from that whatever conclusions you wish.

DA did a lot of things better than ME in general. I particularly like the friendship paths. I was pleasantly surprised that if your female Warden is on good terms with Miranda, you get the friendship conversation where Morrigan comes the closest she ever can be to crying, and entertains the idea of the female warden being her "sister." That was quite nice, I think. I'd like to see that sort of thing in ME3 myself. Not expecting it of course. But would be nice.

[Errationatus]

Collider wrote...

Tali was created first not as a romance interest, but as a non-romance squad mate in ME1, so that's already wrong.

Not wrong.  I'm perfectly aware of ME1, having played it about a billion times.  I meant - and I think I was clear on this, or it was certainly implied - that I was speaking solely on the basis of ME2.

I don't really think you are giving those characters their due. Any character can be reduced to unflattering cliches and tropes - even Jack. She's the "riot girl" & "bad girl" (see title) who doesn't take crap from no one and gets what she wants. That's nothing new in fiction. There is apparently, from what I've heard, the stereotype that all the troubled woman needs is a good man. But you would agree with that one would be doing her character a disservice by reducing her to this, probably.

Indeed.  Cliche titles aside - that does not change that Jack's character was given - personality-wise - more thought than the others.  Tali is in the second half of her character arc - like Garrus, but the only real change in her personality is her (now blatant) attraction to Shepard.

There's a simple solution. Tell her you're not interested. You don't have to play Shepard as you would act in his shoes, Shepard can easily be played as someone who genuinely cares for Tali and is not being predatory. That is infact how the romance is, there's no "I just want to get you in bed" that there is for other romances.

And that is how I played him on the playthrough where he romanced Tali.  The first time.   The first time, as I said - very sweet.  Glad it worked out for them.  Jack's romance, however, tends to throw the others into a rather sharp relief.  At least for me.

[royceclemens]

Collider wrote...

royceclemens wrote...
I've tried to make the argument for some female presence in the ME writing staff for a while now.  While ME2 had none, DA:O had three.  Draw from that whatever conclusions you wish.

DA did a lot of things better than ME in general. I particularly like the friendship paths. I was pleasantly surprised that if your female Warden is on good terms with Miranda, you get the friendship conversation where Morrigan comes the closest she ever can be to crying, and entertains the idea of the female warden being her "sister." That was quite nice, I think. I'd like to see that sort of thing in ME3 myself. Not expecting it of course. But would be nice.

Well, I'm tending to be a little lenient when it comes to ME2, as it's a much shorter game than DA:O and with a lot less backtracking and walking around to facilitate the kind of banter that's being asked for.  If asked to make a choice between more squaddie chatter and doing more pointless death-laps around the Citadel, I'd honestly have to stop and think awhile on which one I'd pick.

But if it's any consolation, the cry for "more sqaddie talk" has reached "no more Mako" levels, so I think we're gonna be okay in ME3.

[Collider]

I'm glad we had this conversation Jake. I do think that Jack's romance was beautifully done, the only issue me and Nivenus had were that we didn't think you were giving the other two enough credit. If that's settled of course, it's all good

[Collider]

royceclemens wrote...
Well, I'm tending to be a little lenient when it comes to ME2, as it's a much shorter game than DA:O and with a lot less backtracking and walking around to facilitate the kind of banter that's being asked for. 

That is very true. though if you've played KOTOR TSL or KOTOR they had another way of doing the banter, which for the most part was pretty decent. I'll explain it if you haven't played them.

f asked to make a choice between more squaddie chatter and doing more pointless death-laps around the Citadel, I'd honestly have to stop and think awhile on which one I'd pick.

I think that banter kind of fits under the umbrella of interparty dialog in general. I want more sense that the squad mates are communicating with eachother, stuff like Kasumi noticing you've been spending time with Jack, etc.

But if it's any consolation, the cry for "more sqaddie talk" has reached "no more Mako" levels, so I think we're gonna be okay in ME3.

Yea, maybe.

[Errationatus]

royceclemens wrote...

Well, I appreciate the gung-ho attitude there, Jake, and yes, Jack is the only one who comes close to resembling how complicated an actual human being is.

Thank you, that was, in my rather roundabout way, what I was trying to say.  I guess I just like to talk. 

I believe it was Mondo who was gobsmacked when she found out there were no female writers on the ME2 staff.

I as well.  Well done, all, I thought.

But I'm afraid issue must be taken with your stance on the other two.  Tali?  I like Tali.  Think she's great.  She's, well...



And if you have a problem with Willow Rosenberg, sir, then I shall have to ask you to step outside!

As you can see from my subsequent statements, I like Tali too.  Not a fan of Buffy, but I've never seen enough to have an opinion.  I do, howeveer, have a great weakness for redheads, so shant disagree with you on that particular principle. 

And Miranda?  Well, I don't "hate" Miranda, just... Y'know... The guts part of her. 

Nor I.  No Miranda hate from me.  Her character is just too rushed and flat for my liking, although she does have her moments - and they are good moments.

But even I know when to be fair.  I consider Miranda a lost opportunity.  The girl has serious self-esteem issues (whether earned or not, I could debate amongst just myself all day) but her writer just didn't seem to use it well.  Nothing really came of it, so she just careened from mood to mood during her scenes.  It was like the stages of grief playing out.  Even her last scene before the Engine Room Floor Mambo was something to the tune of "I think we're crazy for getting into this, Shepard, but if you want to, I'll be around when things are quiet."  That's the Acceptance stage!

Again, I think I need a provisio, and am entirely to blame for any misunderstandings:  I am approaching this from a writer's standpoint (not claiming to be one, by any means), from the context of a character in a story, that, granted, is not finished yet.  Miranda, [i]et al, may surpise us all.  More power to them as characters.  IMO, it is the mark of a strong and worthy (and well-created, cliche or not) character that they show depth from the outset - as Jack certainly did.

But there's room for development and I think it's coming.  They wouldn't have given her all that plot armor unless there was something the devs wanted to show us about her.  For al I know, I could have a complete turnaround in opinion by the time ME3 rolls around.  There's a character there, she just hasn't been shown to us very well yet.

You anticipated me.  I agree - obviously.

The facts of the matter are these:

Were there no Miranda, a great many people on this forum (myself included) would complain that there are no face-meltingly hot seductresses on board to simply get your rocks off with.

I fear I would not be one of those.  Perhaps it`s because I`m old (over forty, but not too much over) and prefer character over T&A.  Believe it or not, it will get tiresome, have you any discernment or taste.

Were there no Tali, a great many people on this forum (myself included) would complain that there isn't a nice, sweet girl on board they could just relate to.

Well, suh, that sweet farmgurl thang just don`t grab me none, neither, I fear.  Never saw teh appeal of the naive- midwestern- fresh-off-the-milk-churn cliche meself.

And were there no Jack, a great many people on this forum (myself included) would complain that there isn't a love interest with a whole lot of depth or complication.

This.

But all three of them are there, each reaching parts the other just quite can't. 

I`m sure you`re correct in the majority of cases.  I suppose I simply don`t work that way.

Modifié par JakeMacDon, 03 mai 2010 - 09:15 .

[royceclemens]

Yeah, I loved how KOTOR II did it. After every story mission, two of your squadmates had a conversation with each other somewhere on the ship, and nine times out of ten it wasn't about you. And the kicker was that the conversations were never set in stone. They could be different on different playthroughs... If I'm remembering it correctly.



I'd voice a concern at this point that BioWare may not want to do that, as they may want to keep it as much in the first person as humanly possible... But there was a section where we got to play as Joker. If they did that, then seperate scenes where your squad talked to one another should be workable.

[Collider]

Yeah, I loved how KOTOR II did it. After every story mission, two of your squadmates had a conversation with each other somewhere on the ship, and nine times out of ten it wasn't about you. And the kicker was that the conversations were never set in stone. They could be different on different playthroughs... If I'm remembering it correctly.

That reminds me of how dark KOTOR II was. Were there ever even any happy conversations between party members? Much of them seem to dislike or hate each other. When I think KOTOR, I think of the brightly vibrant environments and hopeful storyline. It's very "Star Wars"y, but without the annoying crap that was in the first three episodes (not the old ones). When I think of TSL I think the dark, dreary confines of Nar Shaadaa and the bleakness of the plot. I've heard someone say that KOTOR TSL  was Star Wars for people who didn't like Star Wars, and that may be true. It's a shame that so much content was cut. There was to be an even darker ending to TSL otherwise.

You are right that they are different on different playthroughs depending on what you do. If you get close to Handmaiden for instance, there is a hostile exchange of words between Atton and her.

In terms of ME, they could do it as they did with the confrontations in ME1 or the fights in ME2, Shepard stumbles onto them talking or otherwise finds out about it.

Modifié par Collider, 03 mai 2010 - 09:24 .

[Errationatus]

Nivenus wrote...

No one can go through what Jack went through and come out intact on the other side.

I didn`t say she was intact.  I just said she wasn`t broken.  Big fuk`n difference.

To say otherwise is disrespectful to rape and child abuse victims everywhere.

I would never do that. 

One of the proudest moments of my life was being invited by the director of a local women`s shelter and held up as an example of a man worthy of the appellation.  I knew the director only in passing, and it was apparently through the reports - conversations - of my female friends and their associates that this came about - to my utter astonishment.  To this day, twenty years later, I still can`t quite believe that happened.  I never did, and still don`t feel worthy of such an accolade.

I have the utmost respect for women.  I firmly believe them to be the civilizing aspect of any civilization, and the only way men mature.   I firmly believe rape and child abuse should be a capital crime.  I firmly believe the human race is stuck in barbarism despite our fancy toys and will remain that way as long as half of humanity is kept as third or fourth class citizenry - or worse.

One of the reasons I can`t compare Miri`s and Tali`s romance favorably with Jack`s is because - IMO - they are shallow facets of women - and that is disrespectful to the women they could be meant to be.

Modifié par JakeMacDon, 03 mai 2010 - 09:44 .

[Errationatus]

Azint wrote...

Chosen romances are subject to preference. No need to argue, and to say one's own preferences are superior to that of another already explains enough about the speaker.

I hope this aside isn`t in reference to me.  Nowhere did I assert that my peferences were superior to anyone else`s.  I made it clear that none of what I`ve said is anything more than my own opinion.

[Epantiras]

Speaking of Kotor...

[Errationatus]

Collider wrote...

I see. You can imagine how easy it was to misinterpret you.

Indeed.  I fear it was one of those things were you write as you`re thinking it, and it can be a bit shallow but unnoticed until dissected by other eyes.  Still, it is one of the reasons I post in these places.  It`s a good workout.

I'm pretty staunchy against the concept of gender roles, so yea, I tend to react more strongly towards hinting. I really don't think any of the female characters in ME2, aside from possibly Kelly (poor Kelly) is "cliche." I may reiterate that one cannot reduce any character to cliches, because everything been done already. The shy dorky girl's been done, the professional, cold woman has been done, and the riot girl with the mouth of a sailor cliche has also been done. What's important is that the writers add complexity to these "cliches" by adding layers upon layers, as you can see with Jack.

We are in complete agreement here, Collider.  You must agree, however, that I did get the thread back onto Jack. 

[Errationatus]

[quote]Collider wrote...

[quote]I'm glad we had this conversation Jake.[/quote]

As am I, Collider.  I appreciate your insights.  Thank you.

[quote]I do think that Jack's romance was beautifully done, the only issue me and Nivenus had were that we didn't think you were giving the other two enough credit. If that's settled of course, it's all good [/quote]

All good. 

[royceclemens]

JakeMacDon wrote...

(In regards to Miranda) I fear I would not be one of those.  Perhaps it`s because I`m old (over forty, but not too much over) and prefer character over T&A.  Believe it or not, it will get tiresome, have you any discernment or taste.

I'm pushing thirty and the day I was swayed by a pair of boobs passed me by a while ago.  But it never goes away completely.  Human beings aren't known for their consistency, and every man-jack of us is different people on different days.  Our multiple Shepards can be looked at as extensions of who we are at a given time.  Like Whitman said: "I contradict myself.  I am large.  I contain multitudes."

JakeMacDon wrote...

(In regards to Tali)  Well, suh, that sweet farmgurl thang just don`t grab me none, neither, I fear.  Never saw teh appeal of the naive- midwestern- fresh-off-the-milk-churn cliche meself.

And that's your right.  Different strokes and all.  But fella, I was born, raised and still reside in Iowa.  This is the part of the game where you want to tread ever so lightly.

Collider wrote...

That reminds me of how dark KOTOR II was. Were there ever even any happy conversations between party members? Much of them seem to dislike or hate each other. When I think KOTOR, I think of the brightly vibrant environments and hopeful storyline. It's very "Star Wars"y, but without the annoying crap that was in the first three episodes (not the old ones). When I think of TSL I think the dark, dreary confines of Nar Shaadaa and the bleakness of the plot. I've heard someone say that KOTOR was Star Wars for people who didn't like Star Wars, and that may be true. It's a shame that so much content was cut. There was to be an even darker ending to TSL otherwise.

Hmm.  I myself love the hell out of SW and yet, strangely, liked KOTOR II better than the first, even in its truncated state.  This alone, I guess, makes me a heathen.

[Errationatus]

royceclemens wrote...

I'm pushing thirty and the day I was swayed by a pair of boobs passed me by a while ago.  But it never goes away completely.  Human beings aren't known for their consistency, and every man-jack of us is different people on different days.  Our multiple Shepards can be looked at as extensions of who we are at a given time.  Like Whitman said: "I contradict myself.  I am large.  I contain multitudes."

I may be an abberation.  I have eyes for no woman other than the one who has graced me with the privilege of her presence for the last 17 years.  I fear I am rather too clinical about the rest.  That doesn`t mean i`m not a sucker for a good romance, though.

And that's your right.  Different strokes and all.  But fella, I was born, raised and still reside in Iowa.  This is the part of the game where you want to tread [i]ever so lightly.

No disrespect meant to thou tillers of the soil and salts of the earth.  But as American cliches go, it`s one of the bleed`n hoary-ist.

Modifié par JakeMacDon, 03 mai 2010 - 09:53 .

[royceclemens]

JakeMacDon wrote...

No disrespect meant to thou tillers of the soil and salts of the earth. 

And now we've moved to the part of the game where I'm done talking to you.