20813 réponses à ce sujet

[axl99]

But it is kinda true, you have to admit. It's all fair game since some of us can so easily dismiss other characters for similar reasons. It's a little more different with Jack because we get to see her change - if we allow ourselves to anyway.

Modifié par axl99, 04 mai 2010 - 05:16 .

[Jackal904]

Anyone that says she is cliche obviously haven't even talked to her. They just pick her up from Purgatory and never to speak to ever again. Those people I don't even argue with. I just tell them that they should actually try talking to her instead of talking out their ass.

axl99 wrote...

But it is kinda true, you have to admit.
It's all fair game since some of us can so easily dismiss other
characters for similar reasons.

Just because you can say someone is a stereotype doesn't mean it's true. I don't think any character in ME2 is a stereotype, even Miranda. She is a little more stereotypical than others, but she has enough differences to make her unique enough.

Modifié par Jackal904, 04 mai 2010 - 05:19 .

[axl99]

I had a brief discussion about that with one of my instructors during a year end party at the local bar. He dug Jack, talked with her and everything, but can't bring himself to really like her because of the way she keeps digging up her past. In a word, "emo". Personally I think he just had a problem with the written dialogue.

[Collider]

Your mileage will vary with Jack. She tends to the be character that people either dislike or adore. She's very well designed and rather unique. Some people may be turned off her past, but it is a pretty dark past.

[Hyper Cutter]

yorkj86 wrote...

What if it's a gay/bi/experimental character, suddenly, inexplicably turning straight, as with Jack?    She even tells us a story where she was with a woman.

Assuming we're thinking of the same dialog here, I always got the distinct impression that she was coerced into it...

[Collider]

That is indeed true Johnny. Many characters are not given their due because some people are giving them a shot. Rather, they look on the surface, which tends to create misconceptions that these characters are cliches or something else disreputable.

[Jackal904]

axl99 wrote...

I had a brief discussion about that with one of my instructors during a year end party at the local bar. He dug Jack, talked with her and everything, but can't bring himself to really like her because of the way she keeps digging up her past. In a word, "emo". Personally I think he just had a problem with the written dialogue.

I have difficulty believing he actually exhausted all her dailogue. And the whole "emo" arguement is utterly idoitic and uncompassionate. She was tortured and experimented on throughout her entire childhood, and througout the rest of her life she was continually taken advantage of and abused. I think she's deserved more than the right to complain. A huge part of Jack's character is her past. It's silly to think that it would not be brought up. Her traumatic past is why she has so many issues. And to help her "fix" her issues, you need to help her deal with her past. Expecting Jack's past to not get brought up is like expecting Tali to not bring up her weak immune system. I can't help but sense a lack of maturity from anyone who finds Jack "emo."

[Collider]

Not sure if axl's instructor actually used the word emo. But on that note, yes, emo is not at all fitting. Emo as I understand it, not the music genre but the subculture, is being depressed over the things going on in your life or whatever. Obviously not much for Jack has gone exceptionally well, if anything, but at the same time she hasn't let that turn her into an emo crying all the time. She's been strong about it.

[royceclemens]

Yeah, emo kids aren't typically people of action. With Jack, that's the problem. Too much action, all things considered.



And yes, the terms "stereotype" and "cliche" are deeply misleading when you point them at any character in any ME game, as BioWare raided the sci-fi stockroom. The same thing they do with every other genre they decide to tackle. It's like calling a character in a Tarantino movie cliched and stereotypical. They're missing the point and the charm.



I believe the word we're looking for is "archetype." Whereas cliches are strictly used for narrative shorthand (ie; seeing a man in a sharp suit talking fast on a cell phone tells you automatically that he's a business man and thus, all you need to know about the character), archetypal ambitions take a stock character and try to rocket them into the stock character Hall of Fame. Dimensions are added, backstories are carefully crafted, dialogue painstakingly written for the role that the character is supposed to fill. It doesn't mean they're new or specific characters to the work or to the genre, but when you think of that kind of character, your mind is gonna flash to the face of the one that did it best, and that's the archetype.



There were movie serial killers before Hannibal Lecter, but Lecter's the archetype as writing and performance pushed that kind of character the highest it could possibly go. Now when you think of dangerous women in video games, gee, I wonder who all of us are gonna think of...

[Collider]

I agree royce. It's a disservice for most/any character to be dismissed as cliches. The most important thing is that Bioware has added layers upon layers to these characters.

[axl99]

And they have.

The storyteller in me on the other hand says they need MORE.

But maybe that's just asking too much.

Modifié par axl99, 04 mai 2010 - 06:30 .

[Collider]

axl99 wrote...

And they have.

And the storyteller in me says they need MOAR.

Which is why we need the old characters to return rather than making new ones. I'll accept one or two new squad mates, but really, I want to see the existing characters continue to develop and I want to see their stories conclude.

[Sutamina]

what is EMO ?

[axl99]

Depends on context. Music subgenre aside, apparently the term is used to offhandedly describe depressed, at times over-melodramatic, people who wallow in their self pity.

Modifié par axl99, 04 mai 2010 - 06:37 .

[Errationatus]

yorkj86 wrote...

I'm getting some déjà vu vibes from this situation, Jake.  You've been at a stand-off with other people from this thread before.  Just saying.   You stuck around to post again after the last time.

...And I still will.  I simply hadn't sussed the general structure of how posters post and how some respond.  There was also work involved and nothing of interest to post to or about. These things happen.

But, I think I understand, as I said, how this particular thread actually works now - there is a undercurrent of belief - IMO - that there are a few posters whose opinions are 'canon'  in what is acceptable to discuss when it comes to Jack and her personality, story, and motivations.  Deviations tend to be met with swift  "Ah, no, sorry, we have decided that she's this way.  Discussion over."  It's not blatant, but is is definitely present.   Again, this is simply my opinion.

Personally, I could care less.   This is a thread for discussing Jack - I'm discussing Jack.  My opinion
is simply that, no more important or unimportant than anyone else's.

I'll continue to say what I like about Jack in any manner I choose.  Those who disagree are certainly welcome to do so, provided they can provide valid criticism and rebuttal.  I'm completely open to any intelligent and civil conversation.  I'm no brainless bulldog.  Prove me wrong and I'll admit it.   Others may simply ignore me, if that is their choice.  If everyone chooses to ignore me, I'll move on.  I think I'll survive the censure. 

To my knowledge, I have been nothing but civil in every exchange, and see no need to change.

[Collider]

axl99 wrote...

Depends on context. Music subgenre aside, apparently the term is used to offhandedly describe depressed, at times over-melodramatic, people who wallow in their self pity.

Which is the opposite of Jack.

[axl99]

I'm all for great conversation, but I do agree that at times it's difficult to stay objective in a discussion about something most of us are so emotionally invested in.

[axl99]

Collider wrote...

axl99 wrote...

Depends on context. Music subgenre aside, apparently the term is used to offhandedly describe depressed, at times over-melodramatic, people who wallow in their self pity.

Which is the opposite of Jack.

Nah, she admits it of her own volition on Pragia.

In a response to a renegade comment she'll even say:

Jack: Y'know what? I like that. I ****** and moan, and you say "Grow the f*ck up". That victim garbage? It's half me. I think I get that.

[Collider]

Well, I was meaning towards wallowing in self pity. I never got that vibe from Jack. Just IMO.

[Collider]

axl99 wrote...

I'm all for great conversation, but I do agree that at times it's difficult to stay objective in a discussion about something most of us are so emotionally invested in.

I just had to disagree with Jake dismissing some of the other characters. Jack is a great, unique character, but she's not the only character who is great and unique.

[royceclemens]

Collider wrote...

axl99 wrote...

And they have.

And the storyteller in me says they need MOAR.

Which is why we need the old characters to return rather than making new ones. I'll accept one or two new squad mates, but really, I want to see the existing characters continue to develop and I want to see their stories conclude.

I'm kinda new to the BW forums, so hopefully someone can fill me in: What was it like before ME2?  Was everyone sweating over whether or not their favorite characters would return then as well?