20813 réponses à ce sujet

[Pacifien]

Collider wrote...

If you feel like discussing a character but don't want to wade through the treacherous waters of their character thread, there is always the Character Disccussion Group.

social.bioware.com/group/2009/

Neither the forum setup or the group setup is optimum on this site, but I do prefer using the forum more than groups. It's the old school telnet bbs user in me.

I will now fondle my 2400 baud modem and relive the memories of walking ten miles to school in the snow uphill both ways. And await the inevitable one upmanship when someone talks about how in their day, they had to manually create their own punchcards.

[royceclemens]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

Of course like you said, there are always some people that might take it the wrong way.  I remember one of the first discussions I had here in the Jack thread.  My opinion was and still is, that Jack has psychological issues.  I imagine this is a bit of a tender spot for some of the Jackolites, but it all ended well the best I remember. 

Who did you argue with about that?

Oh yeah, that was me.

Unless I'm severely mistaken, I think we think of the terms "psychological problems" in different ways, though.  So I have the funny feeling we're both right and semantics got in the way.

[royceclemens]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

royceclemens wrote...
And concerning Jack's origin, I'm of the firm (and unpopular belief) that Jack and Miranda were engineered at the same facility, most likely by Mr. Lawson.  After Miranda split, Lawson tried to improve on the formula and Jack was one of the castoffs between Miranda and Oriana.  They had a girl with biotic power that has no connection to the outside world, that means no one would go looking for her.  A risk-free Cerberus investment.

I haven't read any novels, what makes you think this concerning Jack.  Is it just a hunch?

It's a hunch.  classic case of hanging backstory.  Miranda has a ton of origin with few specifics about it.  With Jack, it's the other way around.  Fits like a glove.  And why hide Mr. Lawson unless one of the other characters wouldn't recognize him, or he wouldn't recognize one of the other characters?  And given that Miranda and Jack are at perpetual loggerheads, it would be explosive.

Plus, given the ridiculous amount of plot armor that Miranda has, if Jack's connected, then her shot at being back in ME3 is up considerably.  I'd rather sink with a beautiful theory than float on an ugly fact.

[Pacifien]

Well, if it makes JohnnyDollar feel any better, I completely agree that Jack has psychological problems. This isn't to say she needs to be in a psychiatric hospital or be taking any medications to "cure" her issues. She is an abused child, and if you had known someone in real life who had been abused as a child, even if they can function in normal society, you'll see that there is something always off kilter about their behavior.

Given that Jack's main issue is trust, I don't see her ever fully overcoming that problem. She's learned to trust Shepard, but even then, I'd bet she regresses on any progress she makes when she's having a bad emotional day. There will never be a time when Shepard can't not let down his guard on this issue, because it won't take much of a mistake on his part to get Jack thinking this whole trust business is bull****.

That's my interpretation at least.

Uh, yeah, there's some personal experience with that.

On a completely different note, Gillian Grayson is a borderline autistic biotic that the Illusive Man placed in the Alliance's Ascension Project in the book Mass Effect: Ascension. I actually haven't read the book, just seen other people's comments and read summaries about it. Given that one of the scientists in the video recordings found on Pragia mention piggybacking onto the Ascension Project once Teltin goes all to hell, I've no doubt some of their research findings and methods learned with Subject Zero were applied to Gillian. From what I understand, Gillian's biotic abilities are considerable, but she's quite young still.

[royceclemens]

yorkj86 wrote...

royceclemens wrote...

And concerning Jack's origin, I'm of the firm (and unpopular belief) that Jack and Miranda were engineered at the same facility, most likely by Mr. Lawson.  After Miranda split, Lawson tried to improve on the formula and Jack was one of the castoffs between Miranda and Oriana.  They had a girl with biotic power that has no connection to the outside world, that means no one would go looking for her.  A risk-free Cerberus investment.

Interesting.  I hadn't heard that one before.   Why would that be unpopular?    It wouldn't negatively effect Jack's character in any way.   It would just tie her with Miranda, or is that where the offense lies?  It'd at least tell us where Jack came from.

Well, that means that TIM would be in full knowledge that Jack and Miranda are, well, "sisters," and put them on the same ship anyway.  TIM could use this to his advantage to put the psychological whammy on the both of them and attempt to create division, but the kicker here is how he would actually do it.  We don't know the extent of TIM's motivations, so as it stands, it's pretty far-fetched.

Plus the "tw-girls'who-hate-each-other-find-out-thay're-actually-sisters" is one of the older tropes in the book.  But by God if there are any two characters that it would be entertaining as hell to apply it to, it'd be Jack and Miranda.

[Collider]

Trying to create division in a team that requires cohesion doesn't seem to make much sense.

[Pacifien]

yorkj86 wrote...
Interesting.  I hadn't heard that one before.   Why would that be unpopular?    It wouldn't negatively effect Jack's character in any way.   It would just tie her with Miranda, or is that where the offense lies?  It'd at least tell us where Jack came from.

The idea doesn't appeal to me because it makes the Mass Effect universe seem smaller. It's like how some people believe Matriarch Aethyta must be Liara's "father" because the bartender mentions being the father in a pureblood pairing and that pairing didn't end well. There are billions of beings in the galaxy. How is it Shepard just happens to meet Liara's father? How is it Miranda and Jack, two people whose paths in life have gone in wildly different directions until Shepard came along, can be related?

Sure, you could go that route. The fact that Miranda and Jack are both tied to Cerberus in spite of their very different lives makes the connection a little more tenable. But... you know, billions and billions of beings in the galaxy. Billions of different stories to tell. More interesting to me when those stories are unique.

[Collider]

I agree with Pacifien. There are people who speculated that Samara was Liara's father as well. Not everyone has to be related to each other. It can make for interesting storytelling, though, sometimes.

[MHRazer]

yorkj86 wrote...

royceclemens wrote...

And concerning Jack's origin, I'm of the firm (and unpopular belief) that Jack and Miranda were engineered at the same facility, most likely by Mr. Lawson.  After Miranda split, Lawson tried to improve on the formula and Jack was one of the castoffs between Miranda and Oriana.  They had a girl with biotic power that has no connection to the outside world, that means no one would go looking for her.  A risk-free Cerberus investment.

Interesting.  I hadn't heard that one before.   Why would that be unpopular?    It wouldn't negatively effect Jack's character in any way.   It would just tie her with Miranda, or is that where the offense lies?  It'd at least tell us where Jack came from.

I think it would certainly be interesting, and wouldn't really have a problem if that's how it goes. As royce said, that means Jack is almost definitely coming back, and I couldn't complain about that. 

The only thing I don't like about it is the idea of her being genetically engineered. The whole concept just kind of irks me the wrong way; I can't shake the "unnatural" feeling. But that's more a personal thing, as far as story goes I agree it would fit well, and I do actually think it's fairly likely. I'd just prefer it differently. 

[royceclemens]

Collider wrote...

Trying to create division in a team that requires cohesion doesn't seem to make much sense.

True, but a human supremacist group resurrecting a Paragon Shepard to do its bidding doesn't make a whole lot of sense either.  As it stands, he needs two specialists to do a job right now, and that job hinges on Shepard proving himself sympathetic to Cerberus.  He doesn't do that, then TIM has a built-in fracture that could royally screw Shepard in the long-term.

But yes, Bartender-as-Liara's-father is goofy.  They're a hundred feet apart from each other, for crying out loud.

Modifié par royceclemens, 07 mai 2010 - 07:21 .

[Collider]

True, but a human supremacist group resurrecting a Paragon Shepard to do his bidding doesn't make a whole lot of sense either.

Depends. If you put into perspective the fact that either way, Shepard defied the Council and got things done, it's not really that nonsensical. Shepard, paragon and renegade, is apparently an able Commander, and was the only reason why Sovereign didn't overtake the galaxy. If they want the behemoth task of defeating the Collectors, they probably want the dude or dudette who for all intents and purposes saved the galaxy.

As it stands, he needs two specialists to do a job right now, and that job hinges on Shepard proving himself sympathetic to Cerberus. He doesn't do that, then TIM has a built-in fracture that could royally screw Shepard in the long-term.

Sort of. Shepard has a lot of opportunities to tell TIM and Cerberus that they suck. You can insult TIM at every opportunity - the only time he seems to lose his temper is at the end of the game when you destroy the base. I think that he wanted us to recruit Jack because she's simply one of the most powerful biotics.

[adriano_c]

royceclemens wrote...

And concerning Jack's origin, I'm of the firm (and unpopular belief) that Jack and Miranda were engineered at the same facility, most likely by Mr. Lawson.

Dunno how 'unpopular' this notion is, as I subscribe to it myself...

[Collider]

I find it far more likely that Jack was just taken at a very young age or bred by Cerberus (not Lawson) and then subjected to those experiments for much of her childhood life.

[adriano_c]

Pacifien wrote...

I will now fondle my 2400 baud modem...

You have me beat on this one, lol.

Time to reminisce about playing Doom on a 9600 modem...having someone pick up a phone and disconnecting my deathmatch!!!!

[LiquidGrape]

royceclemens wrote...

I'd rather sink with a beautiful theory than float on an ugly fact.

Waits would be proud.
Wonderful verbiage.

As for Jack being a second generation of Lawson-bred biotics, I can see it. The animosity between Miranda and Jack is so hyperbolic that I would be genuinely surprised if that wasn't turned on its head in ME3 through some kind of revelation.
And I rather like the idea of the Bartender being Liara's father...reminds me of A Comedy of Errors.
Not Shaky's best; but a nicely convoluted romp.

Modifié par LiquidGrape, 07 mai 2010 - 07:36 .