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[Pacifien]

Was just thinking about something, did Jack mention the cult she joined was specifically a biotic cult or just a cult in general?

[jlb524]

Pacifien wrote...

Was just thinking about something, did Jack mention the cult she joined was specifically a biotic cult or just a cult in general?

Cult in general...said nothing specific about it.

[BobbyTheI]

Huh.  Pop into this thread for the first time in weeks, and people are talking about Jack/Miranda nookie.  My spirit lives on.

As far as the discussion of Jack's past experiences with women, my theory is "tried it, didn't like it."  Somebody like Jack, who was basically told from birth that she was nothing more than a thing, an object to be experimented upon, is going to have to spend some time after escaping to figure out her own identity.  Hence her ever-shifting appearances in her tattoos, her joining the cult to try to find a purpose, and her probably trying out a few experiments of her own.

I can see her only wanting a serious relationship with a male, because the one good relationship she ever had was with Murtagh.  Every other person she's ever been intimate with, including the couple she shared a bed with, has used her and discarded her.  Not saying that a female couldn't be just as compassionate to her as a male, but I could see that as one wall too many for her to be ready to tear down.

At least in one game, that is.  But in ME3, I fully expect girl-on-girl makeouts, constantly. 

Modifié par BobbyTheI, 17 mai 2010 - 08:14 .

[Pacifien]

Oh, and back on the sexuality topic, I'm reminded of a conversation I once had with a homosexual friend of mine. He said that as a homosexual, his gut reaction is to assume a person he meets is also a homosexual. And he figured that for heterosexuals, their gut reaction is to assume a person is heterosexual. And for bisexual, the assumption is that people are bisexual. I never fully bought that theory and told him he probably shouldn't go telling random guys his gut reaction was to assume they were gay, but anyway... I wonder if there's something to it in our various reactions to Jack's sexuality.

I probably shouldn't have gone there, it seems waaaay too fine a line to open up a war of words. So why am I posting this still? I can't help it! I thought it, I have to post it!

Okay, just preemptively, let's continue with the civility of the discussion.

[LiquidGrape]

BobbyTheI wrote...

At least in one game, that is.  But in ME3, I fully expect girl-on-girl makeouts, constantly. 

That is actually a pretty good point. And an interesting prospect...I always thought the romance with Jack felt rushed and unsatisfying. The idea that this relationship could mature over the course of two games is very appealing to me.

[Pacifien]

BobbyTheI wrote...
Huh.  Pop into this thread for the first time in weeks, and people are talking about Jack/Miranda nookie.  My spirit lives on.

BOBBY! For as long as this threads live, so shall your spirit live on!

[Jack Package]

BobbyTheI wrote...

At least in one game, that is.  But in ME3, I fully expect girl-on-girl makeouts, constantly. 

Back with a bang!

I'm just lurking here but it's good that you are back, you have made some quite amusing posts before.

[Pacifien]

yorkj86 wrote...
It was just a cult.  I think that when they found out about her biotic abilities, they probably started to revere her, or at least manipulate her in to thinking that they revere her, so that they could use her.  You know, cults.  They'll change on a whim if it suits them.

Drat. I like to think of it as some offshoot of Major Kyle's cult and from where she got her "I will destroy you" battlecry.

[jlb524]

LiquidGrape wrote...

BobbyTheI wrote...

At least in one game, that is.  But in ME3, I fully expect girl-on-girl makeouts, constantly. 

That is actually a pretty good point. And an interesting prospect...I always thought the romance with Jack felt rushed and unsatisfying. The idea that this relationship could mature over the course of two games is very appealing to me.

I wouldn't count on this.  I'm betting the romances are set as they are, sexuality wise.  The DudeShep/Jack thing will continue, FemShep/Jack =/= no go.

I'm not opposed to things like this, I doubt they'll do it, since they already have a huge mess with trying to bring all the old characters/romances back (if they even do this).

[drunken pyromaniac]

The Uncanny wrote...

drunken pyromaniac wrote...

I always figured her bi experiences were like Collider said, because she was being used. Not necessarilly because she actually was into it.

The point is that we don't know either way.

I know, It was just my opinion.

[Mondo47]

Oh, for a confirmation or a denial from the Gods on high... or maybe it's better we never know for sure - keep a little mystery in one of the things that undoubtedly plays a part in our girl's appeal to all kinds o' folks who paddle to different strokes^_^

[LiquidGrape]

Mondo47 wrote...

Oh, for a confirmation or a denial from the Gods on high... or maybe it's better we never know for sure - keep a little mystery in one of the things that undoubtedly plays a part in our girl's appeal to all kinds o' folks who paddle to different strokes^_^

Eh, fair point...it's just that she was perfect for one of my femsheps.

[jlb524]

LiquidGrape wrote...

Mondo47 wrote...

Oh, for a confirmation or a denial from the Gods on high... or maybe it's better we never know for sure - keep a little mystery in one of the things that undoubtedly plays a part in our girl's appeal to all kinds o' folks who paddle to different strokes^_^

Eh, fair point...it's just that she was perfect for one of my femsheps.

Well, she can look but she can't touch.

And I do agree with Mondo, some mystery is good for characters....Jack's sexuality, Tali's face, etc.

[Jackal904]

LiquidGrape wrote...
but also considering you've had the non-too-subtle opportunity to address Jack with a dialogue option titled "You fascinate me".

I think that dialogue choice was a remnant of the cut f/f romance with Jack.

[adriano_c]

Pacifien wrote...

He said that as a homosexual, his gut reaction is to assume a person he meets is also a homosexual.

Lol, gut instinct or not, this isn't a particularly practical outlook...at all.

[adriano_c]

jlb524 wrote...

I don't know, but it appears as it stands that the writers added in f/f sex in her past story to give her more of an 'edge'...

With the reveal trailer in mind, I'd say this is more than a safe bet. Isn't that some well-known stereotype for teen-oriented movies anyway? Making some female character bisexual to enhance some sort of "bad girl" image?

[Pacifien]

adriano_c wrote...

Pacifien wrote...
He said that as a homosexual, his gut reaction is to assume a person he meets is also a homosexual.

Lol, gut instinct or not, this isn't a particularly practical outlook...at all.

Oh believe me, I pointed that out to him. "That's good to know, but you do remember we live in Texas, right?"

[adriano_c]

Lol...Texas. I thought only two things came out of there...

[jlb524]

adriano_c wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

I don't know, but it appears as it stands that the writers added in f/f sex in her past story to give her more of an 'edge'...

With the reveal trailer in mind, I'd say this is more than a safe bet. Isn't that some well-known stereotype for teen-oriented movies anyway? Making some female character bisexual to enhance some sort of "bad girl" image?

Yes, it is a technique used in a lot of those crappy movies.  I don't know why BW would do this. 

[Jackal904]

The Uncanny wrote...

drunken pyromaniac wrote...

I
always figured her bi experiences were like Collider said, because she
was being used. Not necessarilly because she actually was into
it.

The point is that we don't know either way.

Jackal904
wrote...

I'm glad BioWare didn't make Jack a
lesbian. It
would have been too stereotypical, and it would become a
joke. Plus
why would Jack assume that femShep just wants to have sex
with her?
It makes complete sense that she would ask maleShep, but not
femShep.
That would just be weird to hear Jack say, "If this is about
sex,
maybe you should just ****ing say so", to femShep.

Let's
say I've chosen to express myself with some body art. Perhaps I like
having my hair very short. Maybe I even wear large boots and a lot
of black clothes. Oh noes! I'm instantly a stereotype!

People will box you into a stereotype yes. Do not act like people are completely unreasonable for considering someone of a common behavior and style as a stereotype.

What I'm trying to say is that there are enough people who consider Jack a stereotype. While on the outside she does appear rather stereotypical, you'll realize she isn't once you get to know her. A stereotype for someone like Jack is that they're a lesbian. Don't try to pretend it's not. And to make Jack a lesbian would just make her come off as more of a stereotype.

And why should it be so odd for
FemShep to want to have a sexual tryst with Jack? You're seriously
suggesting that this is something only men should want to do? Nonsense.

That's rather naive to say. Of course there are other women who may be attracted to Jack. But when two women talk often, you're dont think it's because one wants to have sex with the other. But when some guy and some girl talk often, you can bet that a part of the reason the guy is talking to the girl has something to do with sex. And you know that's true.

Modifié par Jackal904, 17 mai 2010 - 10:18 .

[Jackal904]

Jack Package wrote...

BobbyTheI wrote...

At least in one game, that is.  But in ME3, I fully expect girl-on-girl makeouts, constantly. 

Back with a bang!

I'm just lurking here but it's good that you are back, you have made some quite amusing posts before.

I see what you did thurr .

Welcome back Bobby. Long time no see .

[drunken pyromaniac]

Jackal904 wrote...

The Uncanny wrote...


Let's
say I've chosen to express myself with some body art. Perhaps I like
having my hair very short. Maybe I even wear large boots and a lot
of black clothes. Oh noes! I'm instantly a stereotype!

People will box you into a stereotype yes. Do not act like people are completely unreasonable for considering someone of a common behavior and style as a stereotype.

What I'm trying to say is that there are enough people who consider Jack a stereotype. While on the outside she does appear rather stereotypical, you'll realize she isn't once you get to know her. A stereotype for someone like Jack is that they're a lesbian. Don't try to pretend it's not. And to make Jack a lesbian would just make her come off as more of a stereotype.

Also, most of the characters fit a stereotype on the surface to one degree or another. From "angry, punk girl" Jack, to "grizzled, amoral mercs" Zaeed and Wrex, to "butch, xenophobic soldier" Ashley. What I find interesting is how all these characters are quite deep and stereotype defying when you dig deeper.

[The Uncanny]

Jackal904 wrote...

People will box you into a stereotype yes. Do not act like people are completely unreasonable for considering someone of a common behavior and style as a stereotype.

What I'm trying to say is that there are enough people who consider Jack a stereotype. While on the outside she does appear rather stereotypical, you'll realize she isn't once you get to know her. A stereotype for someone like Jack is that they're a lesbian. Don't try to pretend it's not. And to make Jack a lesbian would just make her come off as more of a stereotype.

Jack? Common behaviour and style? Okay, how many bi or gay girls do you know? How many of them act and look like Jack? What percentage of bi and gay girls out there do you think look and dress like Jack? Very few.

So why does the stereotype exist? Because of assumptions.
And I think is just as import to show that women who don't look a certain way can be
bi or gay as it is to show that they also can! That way you demonstrate
that you can dress however you choose to. Nobody should feel that a
visual identity - any visual
identity - is forced upon them.

I'm just trying to argue for
diversity. Leliana in DA:O is girlish, feminine and alluring. Should every BW game have the exact same LI options or perhaps, just
perhaps, someone like Jack being an s/s LI would actually have been a fresh spin - a
character type that hasn't been an s/s LI before. And in the next game you
could have someone different again.

Jackal904 wrote...
That's rather naive to say. Of course there are other women who may be attracted to Jack. But when two women talk often, you're dont think it's because one wants to have sex with the other. But when some guy and some girl talk often, you can bet that a part of the reason the guy is talking to the girl has something to do with sex. And you know that's true.

Now you're being deliberately obtuse.

That wasn't what I was saying. I responded to your asking 'Why would Jack assume that femShep just wants to have sex with her?' I believed the intent behind the question was to doubt that two women could simply want sex from one another and nothing more. That would be naïve.

However, no, sex would not be the first thing through a straight woman's mind if she was talking to another woman, but it would certainly be on the mind of a bisexual or a lesbian.

[jlb524]

I think the stereotype that's possibly there now (of the straight woman who only has sex with women b/c she is troubled/wants to be cool/wants to please men/all of the above) is far worse than the stereotype that would exist if Jack was bisexual. The former trivializes f/f sexuality and relationships, the latter could be bad if Jack was a one-dimensional character and her romance shallow...she/it is not.