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[jlb524]

Urdaniel wrote...

For a 'canon' skillset, I went with 4 levels of Primal Adept, 3 levels of Pull, 4 for Heavy Shockwave, and 2 in Warp Ammo.  Would prefer Throw instead of Pull, but oh well.  If I had Throw, I'd go for 4 Throw Field and 3 Shockwave, but that's all wishful thinking.

I'll just randomly jump in here...

Why prefer throw to pull?  I max out Jack's Pull to 'Pull Field'  and I like how it can suspend multiple enemies in mid air for either gunning them down or using Warp to pull off a 'warp explosion' (which can then also damage the other enemy lifted besides the one you are aiming at).

I usually only give her 3 points in Shockwave as well and then max out her passive.  I ignore Warp ammo, as I like her to be my go to person for setting up Pull + Warp combos, with an Adept or Sentinel PC.

[Urdaniel]

jlb524 wrote...

I'll just randomly jump in here...

Why prefer throw to pull?

Well, it's more of a roleplaying quirk on my part.   When you see Jack in cinematics, her exhibited abilities tend to match Throw more than Pull.  I will concede that Pull tends to be a lot more usable than Throw, especially for targeting purposes, but then again, I'm not looking at it from a game mechanics standpoint.

[Pacifien]

If they really wanted her to be an up close and personal fighter, should have given her biotic punch.

[jlb524]

Urdaniel wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

I'll just randomly jump in here...

Why prefer throw to pull?

Well, it's more of a roleplaying quirk on my part.   When you see Jack in cinematics, her exhibited abilities tend to match Throw more than Pull.  I will concede that Pull tends to be a lot more usable than Throw, especially for targeting purposes, but then again, I'm not looking at it from a game mechanics standpoint.

Yeah, she seems to throw the one Blue Suns turian merc during the Purgatory scene.  But she also 'lifts' one, if I recall (before doing a 'biotic punch').

I'm curious as to why her loyalty power wasn't another biotic one (instead of warp ammo) being that her focus seems to be on biotics more than standard 'shooting' combat.  She is the most powerful human biotic, afterall.

[MHRazer]

Urdaniel wrote...
Playing on the PC makes Jack a whole lot more usable for me.  I basically swapped out her pistol for an assault rifle so she has more utility even on Hardcore or Insanity (although the 'no biotics vs. defended targets' is still rather crippling).  Did the same thing Pacifien does, which is basically to strip the Warp Ammo in favor of my Vanguard's Squad Cryo or my Soldier's AP, then max out the other three skills.  And yes, I edit the game to give Jack the same number of points as Jacob and Miranda (their having 31 points just never seemed fair to me) - having played ME2 all the way through 7x, I'm hardly ruining my experience, imo.

For a 'canon' skillset, I went with 4 levels of Primal Adept, 3 levels of Pull, 4 for Heavy Shockwave, and 2 in Warp Ammo.  Would prefer Throw instead of Pull, but oh well.  If I had Throw, I'd go for 4 Throw Field and 3 Shockwave, but that's all wishful thinking.

EDIT: In my last couple of playthroughs, I went with Jack all the time.  Grabbed Zaeed and Kasumi first, ran to Purgatory and busted her out.  After that, I swapped out the second squad member as needed (primarily for loyalty missions) but kept Jack in the lineup for every mission.  Since I play on Insanity exclusively these days, it makes some fights really difficult.  But after playing the game so many times, I could use a challenge.

I'm on PC, and didn't realize you could do that stuff. Makes sense since you can mod nearly anything on PC, it just hadn't occurred to me to look into it for ME2. Is it simple?

I'm playing on hardcore now (right combo of challenge & fun), and I'm using Jack all the time. It just makes the game more enjoyable having her in the squad for me. I'm also bringing Miranda for every mission, simply because I want to catch all of their interactions with each other throughout the game. Depending on if I play through more times, I might try more playthroughs with Jack + other characters for the entire game. 

Edit: And I'm going to keep plugging my reverse-charge idea as a better power for Jack until my face turns blue.

Modifié par MHRazer, 28 mai 2010 - 04:19 .

[Pacifien]

Warp ammo is technically a biotic ammo. It certainly makes her weapons more lethal. Given that each loyalty power is unique, if she didn't have warp ammo, what other unique biotic power would you have given her?

I personally would have given warp ammo to Thane (because his shredder ammo suuuucks), but I haven't been able to come up with a good replacement for Jack.

ETA: Oh right, reverse charge. That's a good one.

Modifié par Pacifien, 28 mai 2010 - 04:25 .

[jlb524]

What is 'reverse charge'?

[MHRazer]

jlb524 wrote...

What is 'reverse charge'?

Well we'd need to come up with a better name 

But I suggested it back around page 100 when we first talked about giving her a more suitable power. Basically while giving Jack charge would fit thematically (see: release from cryo), it would put our squishy girl who has a tendency to eat dirt in the middle of bad guys. So rather than charge into them, she should pull an enemy toward her at charge-speed, and biotic punch them away from her when they get there. Basically pulling them into a massive punch. Jack gets to smash bad guys in the face, and isn't exposed to a bunch of damage. Also, would put the recently punched baddie into prime shotgun range.

Modifié par MHRazer, 28 mai 2010 - 04:39 .

[Andaius20]

Oh a Biotic Scorpions "get over here!" :0

[Andaius20]

Jack quote of the hour

[jlb524]

MHRazer wrote...

Well we'd need to come up with a better name 

But I suggested it back around page 100 when we first talked about giving her a more suitable power. Basically while giving Jack charge would fit thematically (see: release from cryo), it would put our squishy girl who has a tendency to eat dirt in the middle of bad guys. So rather than charge into them, she should pull an enemy toward her at charge-speed, and biotic punch them away from her when they get there. Basically pulling them into a massive punch. Jack gets to smash bad guys in the face, and isn't exposed to a bunch of damage. Also, would put the recently punched baddie into prime shotgun range.

Oh, I see.  So it would be like a 'Pull' power but happening at a greater speed and Jack would do some kind of 'biotic punch' move at the end to deal out some extra damage?  They'd be incapacitated for a few seconds afterwards, giving her time to blast them with a shotgun if needed.   Sounds cool.  I don't think it would be to over-powered, as Kasumi's 'Shadow Strike' power deals a lot of damage to just one foe.

[Gethforceone]

Her passive skill should have given her a huge shield boost and I wish she had a assault rifle instead of a pistol.

[Pacifien]

Certainly better for her to bring one enemy to her shotgun at a time instead of diving into a sea of enemies in order to use it. Which is what she does in the actual game. God, those shotgun squadmates need so much micromanagement sometimes.

[Razorsedge820]

I felt Jack was the one who should have been given slam instead of warp rounds. Throwing your enemy in the air and hurling them to the ground crushing every bone in their body fits Jack much better than Miranda IMO.

Ammo manipulation seems more like a tech skill to me which fits in with Miranda's class. The special ability powers for Jack and Miranda is backwards.

Also in Jacks first introduction video towards the end she is shown using Slam on a YMIR mech. So that means Bioware originally had Slam assigned to Jack. I wonder why they changed it?

Modifié par Razorsedge820, 28 mai 2010 - 05:30 .

[Errationatus]

axl99 wrote...

Speculating is awesome.

Going on what Jake mentioned, I think it could be possible that the project that created Jack [figuratiavely speaking] had an actual purpose other than wasting research funds for sick kicks. Suppose there was a project head of a sizable group of specialists who came up with the theory in creating stronger biotic users by removing or reducing the delibitating side effects of insanity, physical pain, etc.  In fiddling around with their research like mixing ingredients in a pot of gumbo, they got Jack.

Say the scientists were so baffled over Jack's unprecedented biotic potential that they tried duplicating and failing to reproduce results in other children. When TIM came over to check on things , they panicked and tried to speed things up using any means possible and eventually the situation degraded into a similar scenario to what happened to Miranda where Wilson tried to sabotage the Lazarus project.

Interesting take, Axl.   As to failing in the other children - we only have Jack's imprecise - and often wrong - memories of Teltin to go on.  We don't know that Jack was the only successful product of Teltin. 

Why did TIM "purchase" her from Purgatory?  He must have known how much trouble having a potential time bomb against Cerberus walking around was going to be.  I can understand that he may think the short-term benefit outweighs any potential risk, but Jack is nothing but a risk to Cerberus - especially after Shepard has seen what he's seen on Pragia.  TIM must see how this is going to come back to bite him on the arse.

Now either TIM is preternaturally cunning - and all of the "failures" are simply steps toward a much larger goal (as failures can be as instructive as success) we simply haven't seen yet, or the whole thing borders on the ludicrously inept on Cerberus' part, and it makes taking it serious on any level more and more difficult.

They can resurrect the dead, but can't cover up a simple series of biotic experiments on a couple of kids? 

C'mon!  There's suspension of disbelief and then there's assuming you're a complete and utter moron.  

[Errationatus]

adriano_c wrote...

JakeMacDon wrote...

Cerberus doesn't strike me as being that sloppy...

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/105/index/2611612/1

Some reading that might interest you.

Thank you.  Interesting thread.  Granted, on the surface, Cerberus does seem to be run by incompentant idiots, but all-in-all, I think we've only seen their failures, not their successes - save two so far - Jack and Shepard.  Of course, both of those also end badly (if you play nice-nice).   

However, should we assume that with all those monied backers, all the resources and operatives, contacts and scientists employed and that TIM himself are really that seriously inept? 

I hoping it's just not "gaping plot hole-itis" (sounds unpleasantly oozy, don't it?) and bad writing of Bioware's part.

[Errationatus]

Oh, I'd wanted to mention it and had forgotten:



Urdaniel, if you don't mind my saying, you're doing one helluva job with your fanfiction. Have read it with much interest and enjoyment and look forward to seeing how it turns out.



Well done, indeed.

[axl99]

Going by the records on Teltin, the researchers already had trouble with new treatments on other biotic subjects resulting in several unnecessary deaths. Dissecting the childrens' corpses in the morgue to further their research apparently wasn't enough. They had to keep bringing more kids in because of how many times they've been failing. And as such the researchers were extremely careful in preserving the one good specimen they had, even if they were rather rough with her for the sake of mental/physical conditioning. For the record, Aresh had **** on Jack. Either he never had a biotic amp installed, or his powers burned out as he grew older, or he never had a chance to use them. He was another failure.

If we were to draw another similarity from Miranda to Jack, then yeah Jack wasn't the only super-powered biotic put out by Cerberus if Gillian from the novels were any indication. Jack may have been the only one they thought they managed to control and put under surveillance.

Purgatory wasn't just a prison, it was an illegal business front. In playing by Warden Kuril's rules TIM had to put in a little extra and put some insurance on the side in the form of Shepard to make sure he got his investment [Jack] back no matter what. Putting her on the Normandy and pitting her against the Collectors might as well be more field data gathering for him. If she survives, she'll still be of some use as a test subject in the next fight with the Reapers. If she doesn't, then that's one liability removed.

I don't believe TIM would've expected everyone else besides Shepard to return from the suicide mission - and mount a full siege on Cerberus HQ afterwards. For all I know he may be counting on the Reaper threat to keep Shepard at bay, and by extension, everyone else on the Normandy.

Wonder if TIM is thinking too big-picture to bother doing anything about the little problems that have rotted away at his organization from the inside out. There's quite a bit of in-fighting going on between Cerberus members.

That aside, the scary thing is whether or not TIM canonically gets his hands on the Collector base. We've seen the Scions and the Praetors. Husk bodies of what used to be human mashed up to form one giant biotically powered scourge of the galaxy. The bodies they were made from didn't even need to consist of biotically-capable people. I see it as the cheap way for Collectors/Reapers to create shock troops. If TIM doesn't get his hands on the Collector base, but uses the data gathered from Shepard's fights with the husks anyway, he might try to duplicate the process. The only problem in creating things like scions or praetors is that they may not be suited for anything else besides blowing things up.

Modifié par axl99, 28 mai 2010 - 06:42 .

[Pacifien]

JakeMacDon wrote...
Why did TIM "purchase" her from Purgatory?  He must have known how much trouble having a potential time bomb against Cerberus walking around was going to be.  I can understand that he may think the short-term benefit outweighs any potential risk, but Jack is nothing but a risk to Cerberus - especially after Shepard has seen what he's seen on Pragia.  TIM must see how this is going to come back to bite him on the arse.
*snips*

I don't think the Illusive Man ever saw Jack as a failure or a risk to him. He probably kept track of her as best he could ever since she left Teltin -- the Ascension novel indicates he's getting intel from the Council to the Terminus with only the Migrant Fleet off his radar.

See, he doesn't strike me as one to ever completely wipe the slate clean. Research from failed experiments can be applied to new ones. The scientist on the holo recording says they'll piggyback onto the Ascension Project, which is exactly what they did. Questionable tactics are always possibilities if the lead to completion of a goal. The Derelict Reaper was still indoctrinating, who knows what the Collector Base might do, but the risks are still worth it to him.

So Jack wasn't the perfectly controlled weapon he would have liked. She was still an extremely powerful biotic weapon, a tool he manipulated onto Shepard's team for a suicide mission that the Illusive Man probably felt more than a few people wouldn't be walking away from. All that time Jack thought she was free from Cerberus, the Illusive Man was just biding his time to see when he could best use her. That's his style.

Modifié par Pacifien, 28 mai 2010 - 06:51 .

[Pacifien]

axl99 wrote...
That aside, the scary thing is whether or not TIM canonically gets his hands on the Collector base. We've seen the Scions and the Praetors. Husk bodies of what used to be human mashed up to form one giant biotically powered scourge of the galaxy. The bodies they were made from didn't even need to consist of biotically-capable people. I see it as the cheap way for Collectors/Reapers to create shock troops. If TIM doesn't get his hands on the Collector base, but uses the data gathered from Shepard's fights with the husks anyway, he might try to duplicate the process. The only problem in creating things like scions or praetors is that they may not be suited for anything else besides blowing things up.

Didn't the Cerberus supporters tell you that the Illusive Man was only going to reverse engineer the Collector base only as a means to defeat the Reapers and would only take select technology solely to benefit mankind's ascension?

The thing about scions, praetorians, and husks is that you kinda need a body to start with. So what are you (by you, I mean the Illusive Man, not axl) to do, pick up all the dead bodies you can since no one else needs them anymore? Or start kidnapping the unwanted, unknown, forgotten creatures of the universe and transmogrify them to a greater purpose? Use them on the next enemy to come after the Reapers, perhaps the Batarians? The Turians?

Now, my main Shepard might have kept the base, but the chance to stick it to the Illusive Man made for a much stronger case to blow the thing up. Yes, that's right, that Shepard didn't consider how the base's technology could have benefited against the fight against the Reapers or how destroying the base would rid the universe of the abomination. Blew up the base simply to rub it in one man's face. No one said you had to do heroic things because you were a hero. Or smart for that matter.

But yeah, if the Illusive Man and Cerberus weren't a factor, might have kept the base. Tell the Salarians about it. I'm sure they would be able to investigate the base in a manner least likely to blow up in our faces. But this is the Mass Effect universe, so odds are no one would have been cautious and thorough in the investigation, someone would have inadvertently turned on the communication system to the Reapers, the Reapers would be listening in the whole time, possibly sending over some indoctrination vibes.

Nah, the developers wouldn't punish the renegade choice that severely, if at all. Then the game is all about choices, but half the choices are about shooting yourself in the foot. Or Conrad in the foot. That would make it a stupid game about stupid choices.

This post lacks Jack. Screw it, I'm obviously not going to be able to keep posts in the character threads solely about the characters. Posting this in the campaign forum would just be a repeat of the same topic already going on there and my anti-Cerberus attitude would be met with derision.

Okay, this post lacks Jack, but is possessed with Jack's spirit. **** Cerberus.

Modifié par Pacifien, 28 mai 2010 - 07:11 .

[adriano_c]

Pacifien wrote...

transmogrify

I have nothing worthwhile to contribute, but this word made me picture The Illusive Man as Calvin from Calvin and Hobbes.

[Epantiras]

The 'reverse charge' would have been awesome! But I'd rather call it 'fist of doom' or 'gravity is a mean mother'. No wait, someone already used that name ;-)

Just as Thane being an assassin who likes to "get close to the target" but who actually never does that in-game, Jack could use some close-combat skill like Kasumi's.



And btw tonight I had a dream about TIM... damn he looks too much my ex-employer >:-C

[Christmas Ape]

Something struck me just now, reading parts of this thread over.

"Why would TIM want Jack out of Purgatory? She seems like a risk on-board his super-valuable ship pursuing his super-expensive operative's super-important quest?"

Because it's fair to assume that a prisoner's biotic amp would be removed before they're incarcerated, and Jack still completely dominates the biotic arena (lorewise, anyway - gameplay balance is always different). Of COURSE you'd try to recover that kind of an asset in case someone decides to buy a self-motivating anti-Cerberus weapon off the warden. He's already sure Shepard can handle a tank-born krogan and a geth platform - he's cautious but trusts your sense of your leadership abilities.



Shepard is the only person who could handle Jack for any length of time, and will either get her killed (removing a potential liability) or begin the process of normal socialization.



Long term plans. Always.

[Epantiras]

Christmas Ape wrote...

"Why would TIM want Jack out of Purgatory? She seems like a risk on-board his super-valuable ship pursuing his super-expensive operative's super-important quest?"

Or maybe it's just a plot hole

But my personal opinion is that Cerberus has been studying Jack even after she escaped the Teltin facility. Something like releasing their experiment and watching how she manages to survive.

On a side note... yesterday I watched the Dark Knight and I liked how every time Joker told a different tale about his face scars. I wondered if he did it on purpose or if he really didn't know that and/or his mind was so messed up that he filled the holes in his memories with imagination without knowing the difference between what has really happened and what he made up.
So...
How much of Jack's story is real? Has she made up some facts (especially about the time spent in the Teltin facility) or did the Cerberus scientists create "false memories" to traumatize her even further? I know this is a cliché, there are "false memories" even in Blade Runner and in Wolverine's past I believe (is Jack "Wolverine in space"?). Opinions?