Aller au contenu

Photo

Into the Bad Girl: Jack Fans


20813 réponses à ce sujet

#7701
FuturePasTimeCE

FuturePasTimeCE
  • Members
  • 2 691 messages

Epantiras wrote...

Christmas Ape wrote...

"Why would TIM want Jack out of Purgatory? She seems like a risk on-board his super-valuable ship pursuing his super-expensive operative's super-important quest?"


Or maybe it's just a plot hole :whistle:

But my personal opinion is that Cerberus has been studying Jack even after she escaped the Teltin facility. Something like releasing their experiment and watching how she manages to survive.

On a side note... yesterday I watched the Dark Knight and I liked how every time Joker told a different tale about his face scars. I wondered if he did it on purpose or if he really didn't know that and/or his mind was so messed up that he filled the holes in his memories with imagination without knowing the difference between what has really happened and what he made up.
So...
How much of Jack's story is real? Has she made up some facts (especially about the time spent in the Teltin facility) or did the Cerberus scientists create "false memories" to traumatize her even further? I know this is a cliché, there are "false memories" even in Blade Runner and in Wolverine's past I believe (is Jack "Wolverine in space"?). Opinions?

sounds like a psychological experimental test study. experimental psycho-torture (mental/psycho/psychic as in related of the mind/cognitive states).

Maybe, inducing trauma to see how she'd respond, if her mental status deteriorates, what happens to her overall, does she have a case of paramnesia (what you're talking about with the false memories), or if she'd develop amnesia.


 It's like trying to understand what this book is talking about... the human mind's ability to go into a parallax shift... in mental states and statuses... mentioning stuff about actual studies of how the mind would react to weird parallelism, color schematics, how a mass/volume of a area is shaped, etc (a form of experimental psycho-torture).

Surprised Jack's crazy ass character wasn't plugged into the Matrix simulation being tortured and constantly puzzled to test her psyche and mental responses (or evoking a specific emotional response via biochemicals and bioelectric stimulation to learn a new signal or something).
.

Modifié par FuturePasTimeCE, 28 mai 2010 - 07:53 .


#7702
MHRazer

MHRazer
  • Members
  • 325 messages

Epantiras wrote...

So...
How much of Jack's story is real? Has she made up some facts (especially about the time spent in the Teltin facility) or did the Cerberus scientists create "false memories" to traumatize her even further? I know this is a cliché, there are "false memories" even in Blade Runner and in Wolverine's past I believe (is Jack "Wolverine in space"?). Opinions?

My guess is that while that would make for another plot twist, I think Jack is mostly correct about her past. For one, they've already used that plot twist once with her incorrectly remembering her escape, and might not want to repeat it. But mainly, Jack strikes me as someone who is actually very intelligent and considering what she's been through, has her head on straight. Sure she's messed up a bit, but a lesser person likely would have just gone straight insane and not be able to function properly. Jack's views have been significantly influenced by her past, but she's far from crazy.

Not remembering her escape correctly makes sense, since she was just going by the information she had. She was running for her life and killing everything in sight - not prime opportunity to stop and ask someone "Hey, what's going on here?" So it's possible she is incorrect with some more information from her past, but I don't think she's flat out lying or subconsciously filling in the gaps with made up information. 

#7703
axl99

axl99
  • Members
  • 1 362 messages
 I will agree.

Jack's story is real, and though she unintentionally escalated the conflict by being out of her cell while the riot was going on, the situation - in her words - "didn't leave much room for interpretation". It's not like the riot was actually happening outside her cell door at the time, it could've been in a different location - on the other side of the facility perhaps. She may have gotten the idea that she started the riot the second the faculty and the other children panicked at the sight of her. If Jack never bumped into Shepard on Purgatory she might've had a similar thought again.

The Teltin recordings and Aresh pretty much spoon-fed us everything we really needed to know about the escape, though I'm pretty sure they left out the small critical details since they were meant to be relayed to the other staff.

Jack is intelligent, not necessarily book-smart but intelligent enough to know how to survive on the run. If she did get caught a few times, she manages to make her way out. Even if she was stuck in cryo on Purgatory, Kuril would've let her out for the right price. The turian never said no to money, and that is exactly what happened when Cerberus came knocking.

Modifié par axl99, 28 mai 2010 - 02:37 .


#7704
Guest_yorkj86_*

Guest_yorkj86_*
  • Guests
Fabricated memories, inducing paramnesia, that's giving a lot of credit to a "surprisingly inept organization".

#7705
Guest_JohnnyDollar_*

Guest_JohnnyDollar_*
  • Guests
The writers don't go near as deep as we go in these threads with the ME story I don't think. I think the story is a lot simpler than what we discuss in so many areas. I do find the talk about paramnesia and parallax shift in mental states rather interesting though. Along with some of the other topics of course. Some of the speculation is fun. Ok maybe not all of it, Asari genetics can give you a headache.:)

#7706
adriano_c

adriano_c
  • Members
  • 1 318 messages
Have to agree, really. Bioware doesn't "do" complex; at least not to the extent that forum members are likely to hope for and speculate about.

#7707
NICKjnp

NICKjnp
  • Members
  • 5 048 messages

JohnnyDollar wrote...

The writers don't go near as deep as we go in these threads with the ME story I don't think. I think the story is a lot simpler than what we discuss in so many areas. I do find the talk about paramnesia and parallax shift in mental states rather interesting though. Along with some of the other topics of course. Some of the speculation is fun. Ok maybe not all of it, Asari genetics can give you a headache.:)


It was fun last night.... only because nobody could come to an agreement about it.

#7708
Guest_JohnnyDollar_*

Guest_JohnnyDollar_*
  • Guests

NICKjnp wrote...

JohnnyDollar wrote...

The writers don't go near as deep as we go in these threads with the ME story I don't think. I think the story is a lot simpler than what we discuss in so many areas. I do find the talk about paramnesia and parallax shift in mental states rather interesting though. Along with some of the other topics of course. Some of the speculation is fun. Ok maybe not all of it, Asari genetics can give you a headache.:)


It was fun last night.... only because nobody could come to an agreement about it.

Yeah it was interesting to talk about.  Those conversations really expose not only the lack of further information required to establish anything, but also inconsistencies and contradictions between the game, codex, and the canon.

Modifié par JohnnyDollar, 28 mai 2010 - 03:24 .


#7709
Mondo47

Mondo47
  • Members
  • 3 485 messages

Epantiras wrote...
Or maybe it's just a plot hole :whistle:

But my personal opinion is that Cerberus has been studying Jack even after she escaped the Teltin facility. Something like releasing their experiment and watching how she manages to survive.

On a side note... yesterday I watched the Dark Knight and I liked how every time Joker told a different tale about his face scars. I wondered if he did it on purpose or if he really didn't know that and/or his mind was so messed up that he filled the holes in his memories with imagination without knowing the difference between what has really happened and what he made up.
So...
How much of Jack's story is real? Has she made up some facts (especially about the time spent in the Teltin facility) or did the Cerberus scientists create "false memories" to traumatize her even further? I know this is a cliché, there are "false memories" even in Blade Runner and in Wolverine's past I believe (is Jack "Wolverine in space"?). Opinions?


For the record, Epants, I think the Joker's stories are all true - to a point. Maybe one little detail here and there and the rest is some little yarn he spins on the spot for whoever he's about to hopelessly maim ;)

As for Jack's past... I think in a similar vein that everything she says in Teltin is true - if not to the record, but to her. Jack strikes me as having had no influence in her life to shape the way events are perceived (in her early life at least). She remembers experiences and ignores the gaps that could occur in the recall of traumatic events. What exists is only the memory; like Grunt's picture book, Jack has a broken VCR in her head that plays back half a scene and then jumps through a couple of minutes of static; the gap is nothing, so whatever the gap really was, never was.

Perhaps as I've theorised before, Jack's first formative perspectives came from the crew of the ship that picked her up, leading to her potentially thinking her abuse at their hands was 'normal'. Once this negative image is discovered for what it is, Jack no longer trusts her perceptive model and wings it with one she constructs from the criminal fraternity she ends up rotating in. Betrayal is answered in kind, as is injury or humiliation. It could even be construed to be a part of Jack's "tower of sh*t"; whether she made her revenges on others terminal or not, saying they were is the same is putting up a 'Beware of the Badass Psychopath' sign - it keeps anyone from looking around the other side of the tower and seeing the confused, frightened child hiding behind it... because that child can be exploited and hurt again. Maybe Jack's myths, told as often as they are, fill in the blanks in the VCR tape, or, as I believe, she always is aware of their false nature.

Because of this, Jack has to lie, and lie often. To me at least, the lies are transparent because not even Jack believes in them; in her heart of hearts, she knows the tower isn't real. If it was, she would never fall for Shepard - it would be a compromise too far if she really was the monster she wants to be see as (reinforced by the whole recounting of the Murtock story - even though she can't face Shepard and cry, she tells the story to show the cracks in her armour and show him she isn't the person she's spent the past few days trying to convince him she is)... so Jack deliberately exposes herself to Shepard; becoming flustered, angry, overly defensive, because she wants him (and I don't think it's subconcious either) to see her as she is: someone who needs to stop, to paraphrase that brandy-swilling hottie-doctor.

As far as Teltin is concerned, what she says is the only truth she may be able to accept for a while. KNowing things played out different might never repair the damaged tape in her head, but she has an idea of what was missed. That means to me that the Teltin memories are as true as something can be, particularly to Jack. After Teltin, I think things are inflated for the purpose of self-defense. I'm not trying to say Jack is a little saint who never made someone's head explode for pissing her off, but I do think some of her stories are inflated to support her defensive myth of being the biggest badass in the galaxy. The difference being, when Jack is alone with herself, she knows where the line between fantasy and reality is... there's probably a lot of things she wishes she could write over with static, which would explain the drugs, and times where another perception is needed, like when she joins the cult or when she hangs with the pirate clan (but to tell it to someone else, the cult was just for sex and drugs, and the pirates were just because they were as hard as her), she is attempting to change the tape for something better.

And strangely enough, that change comes when she joins the crew of a Cerberus ship, surrounds herself with people that by all rights she shouldn't get on with, and meets a man (or woman) she can let her guard down with and let them accept her for who she really is (and in some cases accept her so much that he opens his heart to her too).

#7710
Guest_yorkj86_*

Guest_yorkj86_*
  • Guests
I never thought that Jack may have been lying about her past.  She seemed badass enough that everything she said seemed plausible.

I wonder how a fanfic Shepard would react to Jack admitting that she lied to him about her past, and that some of the myths that exist about her are just fabrications.

#7711
Mondo47

Mondo47
  • Members
  • 3 485 messages
Perhaps lie is too loaded a word for what I meant - perhaps saying she adds scope to the truth is better. I do think she did everything she says she did, just perhaps not the way she tells it... making the dog bark twice as loud to seem twice as big.

#7712
Guest_JohnnyDollar_*

Guest_JohnnyDollar_*
  • Guests
Mondo, is your post above about what you think the writer's actual intent was? Or is it just basically the best sense that you can make out of what we have, and that the character is not necessarily intentionally written in this complex of a manner?




#7713
axl99

axl99
  • Members
  • 1 362 messages
There were a lot of things Jack never had the choice in having. Her scars, her biotic abilities. As a kid in Teltin she's never earned much of anything for herself. Once she got out, it would follow that Cerberus gave chase after her. However when laying low simply didn't cut it for Jack anymore, she may as well have made the best of what Cerberus gave her and began earning a reputation for herself as a dangerous criminal. The more terrible the crime, the more cautious Cerberus was in trying to capture her.

Even if she had a bit of a sense of humour talking about her exploits, I'd still say she was hardly subtle in actually getting on with them. Stealing a military vehicle in the middle of a parade? Blowing up space stations? Making craters in moons? That's extremely showy to me.

Jack is so blunt you'd swear she takes most things at face value, which isn't always true.

I've been looking at Jack's texture maps again, it didn't seem like Jack received further scarring or severe signs of external trauma since leaving Teltin. By that I mean her skin - and by extension her tattoos - look immaculately untouched. I like to think of it as a proof she's developed far enough that no one she butted heads with gave her anything worse than a bruise..

Modifié par axl99, 28 mai 2010 - 05:01 .


#7714
Guest_yorkj86_*

Guest_yorkj86_*
  • Guests
I don't think a fanfic Shepard would care much about Jack embellishing upon her past. The only difference between Jack and Shepard is that Jack did the embellishing herself, whereas Shepard had the embellishing done by other people and forced upon him through the flow of rumors.

#7715
axl99

axl99
  • Members
  • 1 362 messages
But who's to know if there really was any embellishing?



I wanna see that moon crater dammit!

#7716
Guest_JohnnyDollar_*

Guest_JohnnyDollar_*
  • Guests

axl99 wrote...
I've been looking at Jack's texture maps again, it didn't seem like Jack received further scarring or severe signs of external trauma since leaving Teltin. By that I mean her skin - and by extension her tattoos - look immaculately untouched. I like to think of it as a proof she's developed far enough that no one she butted heads with gave her anything worse than a bruise..

Did you notice that nasty scar on her neck?  The one shown in her reveal video.  You know, although it certainly wouldn't make her more attractive,  I would think that she would have plently of visible and horrid looking scars on her body considering all that she has been through.

Modifié par JohnnyDollar, 28 mai 2010 - 05:11 .


#7717
axl99

axl99
  • Members
  • 1 362 messages
Think Mondo speculated that it might've been a biotic amp that was taken out. If Jack did scar over in a couple more places, we'd see that contrast with the surgical scars we're so used to seeing by now.

Modifié par axl99, 28 mai 2010 - 05:18 .


#7718
Guest_JohnnyDollar_*

Guest_JohnnyDollar_*
  • Guests
Right, but did you see it on those texture maps?  I was curious if it was there, and if it looked just like the reveal trailer showed.

Edit:  Or did you post these maps a little while back?  If so, then I remember seeing the scar.

Modifié par JohnnyDollar, 28 mai 2010 - 05:22 .


#7719
axl99

axl99
  • Members
  • 1 362 messages
Someone else posted the maps. Here's the thing. Jack has been divided up into three texture maps in three different resolutions.

One for her face [512x512], one for her scalp [1024x1024], one for her body [1024x1024].

Because of that, the scars on her neck look very pronounced and thus the details make it look very "jaggedy". Jack's texture map for her body is much smaller in comparison to her head, so in saying we don't get as much crispness in detail on those scars there. The scar on her neck is practically perpendicular to the one on her spine. So no I don't think anyone else other than the Teltin crew was responsible for that one.

Someone there was epic fail at suturing.

Modifié par axl99, 28 mai 2010 - 05:30 .


#7720
Epantiras

Epantiras
  • Members
  • 1 389 messages

axl99 wrote...
Someone there was epic fail at suturing.


Image IPB

#7721
Pacifien

Pacifien
  • Members
  • 11 527 messages
Regarding Jack's memories, it reminded me of a writing exercise I had to do once about memories. We were asked to write are earliest memory, but this was after a lengthy discussion about the unreliability of memories and how other people can cloud your own perception of what you think you remember. Like how police lineups can be subtly manipulated, people misremembering the layout of a room or location, the gaps in how you remember one early memory to another.

So Jack says her earliest memory is the room. But perhaps she has an equally old memory of meeting one of the scientists. However, her memory of the room left a stronger impression, so it's the memory she chooses as her earliest.

Even how she remembers her later triumphs is suspect. You remember what you want to, you perceive it as you want to. Or you get enough people talking about the same event, you start wondering what about that event was your own experience and what was the experience of other people experiencing the similar environment. Memory is notoriously faulty in humans. It's not just Jack's memories of events from her past you could question, though there's enough trauma to have fractured the details for her, I think.

#7722
FuturePasTimeCE

FuturePasTimeCE
  • Members
  • 2 691 messages

MHRazer wrote...

Epantiras wrote...

So...
How much of Jack's story is real? Has she made up some facts (especially about the time spent in the Teltin facility) or did the Cerberus scientists create "false memories" to traumatize her even further? I know this is a cliché, there are "false memories" even in Blade Runner and in Wolverine's past I believe (is Jack "Wolverine in space"?). Opinions?

My guess is that while that would make for another plot twist, I think Jack is mostly correct about her past. For one, they've already used that plot twist once with her incorrectly remembering her escape, and might not want to repeat it. But mainly, Jack strikes me as someone who is actually very intelligent and considering what she's been through, has her head on straight. Sure she's messed up a bit, but a lesser person likely would have just gone straight insane and not be able to function properly. Jack's views have been significantly influenced by her past, but she's far from crazy.

Not remembering her escape correctly makes sense, since she was just going by the information she had. She was running for her life and killing everything in sight - not prime opportunity to stop and ask someone "Hey, what's going on here?" So it's possible she is incorrect with some more information from her past, but I don't think she's flat out lying or subconsciously filling in the gaps with made up information. 

She did led Shepard to a actual Cerberus research facility. 

#7723
Urdaniel

Urdaniel
  • Members
  • 136 messages

MHRazer wrote...
I'm on PC, and didn't realize you could do that stuff. Makes sense since you can mod nearly anything on PC, it just hadn't occurred to me to look into it for ME2. Is it simple?


JohnnyDollar covered this part, looks like.  I'll supply the following links for any PC players out there who feel like jumping into the modding pool to give Jack a different loadout:

1) Coalesced.ini editor: social.bioware.com/project/1854/   As Johnny mentioned, BACK UP your original coalesced.ini file FIRST.

2) How to use the editor to alter parameters within the game:  PC Tweaks for Mass Effect 2  It's a long article, but you may find something you want to change that you didn't know (initially) that you wanted to.  ;)

I used to use other people's modded coalesced.ini files, but eventually learned how to do it myself so I could customize it to my own preferences.  Hope this helps.


JakeMacDon wrote...
Oh, I'd wanted to mention it and had
forgotten:

Urdaniel, if you don't mind my saying, you're doing
one helluva job with your fanfiction. Have read it with much interest
and enjoyment and look forward to seeing how it turns out.

Well
done, indeed.


Thanks for the kind words.  I'm hoping not to disappoint with the later segments, of which there are around 3.5 left to go.


On a final note, curse the lot of you for putting up such interesting discussions!  :P  I can't seem to keep current with the thread at the rate you all are going.  Seriously though, I'm glad to see things are hopping around here (in a good way).  Just have to read and comprehend faster, I guess.

#7724
MHRazer

MHRazer
  • Members
  • 325 messages

FuturePasTimeCE
wrote...

MHRazer wrote...

Epantiras wrote...

So... 

How much of Jack's story is real? Has she made up some facts (especially about
the time spent in the Teltin facility) or did the Cerberus scientists create
"false memories" to traumatize her even further? I know this is a
cliché, there are "false memories" even in Blade Runner and in
Wolverine's past I believe (is Jack "Wolverine in space"?). Opinions?


My guess is that while that would make for another plot twist, I think Jack is
mostly correct about her past. For one, they've already used that plot twist
once with her incorrectly remembering her escape, and might not want to repeat
it. But mainly, Jack strikes me as someone who is actually very intelligent and
considering what she's been through, has her head on straight. Sure she's
messed up a bit, but a lesser person likely would have just gone straight
insane and not be able to function properly. Jack's views have been
significantly influenced by her past, but she's far from crazy.

Not remembering her escape correctly makes sense, since she was just going by
the information she had. She was running for her life and killing everything in
sight - not prime opportunity to stop and ask someone "Hey, what's going
on here?" So it's possible she is incorrect with some
more information from her past, but I don't think she's flat out lying or
subconsciously filling in the gaps with made up information. 



She did led Shepard to a
actual Cerberus research facility. 


 … and? I think I’m missing your point.

Modifié par MHRazer, 28 mai 2010 - 07:03 .


#7725
Mondo47

Mondo47
  • Members
  • 3 485 messages

JohnnyDollar wrote...

Mondo, is your post above about what you think the writer's actual intent was? Or is it just basically the best sense that you can make out of what we have, and that the character is not necessarily intentionally written in this complex of a manner?


I'd not want to hazard a guess at the writer's intent considering we have so little to examine that's remotely concrete. It's just my reading of Jack as I see Jack. I'm quite likely left of the mark, too, but it's no more than how I've slowly come to read the character, her motivations and doubled it up with some of my own speculation probably. It's just me doing Jack vs. The Couch in my head ;)

I don't doubt though that there's always been more to our girl than meets the eye; if all they wanted was a visually interesting female criminal, they could have gone to a lot less effort to meet the brief without making someone as layered and interesting as Jack. We'd be none the wiser in this hypothetical Jack-free universe, and we'd not care. They went to great lengths in making her interesting, in making the audience that found Jack and liked her want these answers. Sure, maybe we add complexity as we debate this and that, but even if we don't ever see it, I'm willing to bet there's an entire life story for Jack somewhere; names, dates, places, sentences served, planets visited, jackasses blown away - the works. Because if there wasn't, why go to the effort they already have?