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[Epantiras]

yorkj86 wrote...

Pacifien wrote...

yorkj86
wrote...
Kaiden: A pile of ashes can't speak.

His
biotics speak to you from beyond.

Kaiden's
Biotic Manifestation: "Shepard, even in death, I still have these
headaches.  Shepard, even in death, I will whine to you about my
headaches."

Shepard: "Oh, for ****'s sake.  Reapers, just kill me
now."

This is awesome

JohnnyDollar
wrote...



TIM: Jack, I am your father.



Jack:
No that's not true. That's impossible!



TIM: Search your
feelings, you know it to be true.

How about this: Jack's parents were Cerberus scientists who did researches on biotic children, but then they realized that their experiments they tried to leave Cerberus but got killed. Or maybe they were mad and experimented on their own daughter. That sounds like an episode from Jarod the Pretender ;-)

[Pacifien]

Dammit, I meant to give Jack some π!

ETA: Pi symbol doesn't show up so well...

Modifié par Pacifien, 31 mai 2010 - 08:48 .

[Gethforceone]

Mondo47 wrote...

I've got to say I'm not a fan of the whole vat-grown Jack approach; it stops her from having anyone to interact with (save a sense of identification with Miranda, which I guess is neat but not as cool as interactions with strangers), and it's these interactions with others that are making her grow.

Personally, I'd go for the following:

1) Jack was bought as a slave - would mean her parents are probably dead, and would mean that once she discovers that she actually had parents, the Jack that is in touch with her feelings has to deal with the fact that they're gone after efforts are taken to find them (maybe the trail ends at some human bones in a ruined settlement)... will Jack be relieved? Upset? Angry?

2) Jack's parents sold her - this has to be my favorite. Shepard manages to find out where Jack was born, and the trail leads to a family home in some impoverished slum. Shepard and Jack make some casual enquiries and find her parents are still living there. This would lead to some amazing chances to really flesh out Jack emotionally; will Jack want to confront them? Would she get violent, considering they'd be responsible for all the suffering she's been through? Would she discover they thought they were saving her from a worse life? Would she discover they didn't even care (potentially knocking back her process of 'opening up' as her own blood proves her expectations of others). Would she forgive them? Or would she not reveal who she is at all?

3) Jack was kidnapped - snatched off some streetcorner, or otherwise taken by force and eventually sold on to Cerberus because of being born a biotic potential. Once again, the trail leads to a door. Will Jack reveal who she is to her parents? Will there be a welcoming home? Will jack be too afraid to risk the encounter? It's potentially the most soft and fuzzy conclusion to the Jack's Past (and would give a Jack who hasn't romanced Shepard someone to care for other than #1), so I'm not fond of it that much, but it would at least lead to some kind of satisfactory conclusion.

I like 2 and 3, but I'm not a fan of 1. And I'd prefer if 3 had more of a bittersweet ending.

[Jackal904]

Mondo47 wrote...

2) Jack's parents sold her - this has to be my favorite. Shepard manages to find out where Jack was born, and the trail leads to a family home in some impoverished slum. Shepard and Jack make some casual enquiries and find her parents are still living there. This would lead to some amazing chances to really flesh out Jack emotionally; will Jack want to confront them? Would she get violent, considering they'd be responsible for all the suffering she's been through? Would she discover they thought they were saving her from a worse life? Would she discover they didn't even care (potentially knocking back her process of 'opening up' as her own blood proves her expectations of others). Would she forgive them? Or would she not reveal who she is at all?

Now that would be really interesting. And instead of you convincing her to make the decision to take revenge on them or forgive them, she should make the decision based on how you influenced her in ME2 and ME3 up to that point. If you convinced her to forgive Aresh in ME2, she may be more inclined to forgive her parents. If you told her to kill Aresh, then she'd be more inclined to take revenge on her parents if she found out they sold her to Cerberus. Other moments could factor into her decision, but the one with Aresh would be the most significant I think.

[StefanBW]

Jackal904 wrote...

Mondo47 wrote...

2) Jack's parents sold her - this has to be my favorite. Shepard manages to find out where Jack was born, and the trail leads to a family home in some impoverished slum. Shepard and Jack make some casual enquiries and find her parents are still living there. This would lead to some amazing chances to really flesh out Jack emotionally; will Jack want to confront them? Would she get violent, considering they'd be responsible for all the suffering she's been through? Would she discover they thought they were saving her from a worse life? Would she discover they didn't even care (potentially knocking back her process of 'opening up' as her own blood proves her expectations of others). Would she forgive them? Or would she not reveal who she is at all?

Now that would be really interesting. And instead of you convincing her to make the decision to take revenge on them or forgive them, she should make the decision based on how you influenced her in ME2 and ME3 up to that point. If you convinced her to forgive Aresh in ME2, she may be more inclined to forgive her parents. If you told her to kill Aresh, then she'd be more inclined to take revenge on her parents if she found out they sold her to Cerberus. Other moments could factor into her decision, but the one with Aresh would be the most significant I think.

I like the ideas. Haven't they done something similar with Garrus in ME2? I remember in his loyalty mission Garrus talks about how killing is always the best option and that he learned that from Shepard -- if you let Garrus kill people or kill people yourself more casually in ME1 of course (or maybe it just depends on his mission with that Dr. Saleon, don't know for sure).

I would like to see more of this stuff put into ME3 with other squadmates, like Jack as Jackal mentioned and of course Garrus again with wether or not you let him kill Sidonis.

Modifié par stefanbw, 31 mai 2010 - 10:01 .

[Jackal904]

stefanbw wrote...

Jackal904 wrote...

Mondo47 wrote...

2) Jack's parents sold her - this has to be my favorite. Shepard manages to find out where Jack was born, and the trail leads to a family home in some impoverished slum. Shepard and Jack make some casual enquiries and find her parents are still living there. This would lead to some amazing chances to really flesh out Jack emotionally; will Jack want to confront them? Would she get violent, considering they'd be responsible for all the suffering she's been through? Would she discover they thought they were saving her from a worse life? Would she discover they didn't even care (potentially knocking back her process of 'opening up' as her own blood proves her expectations of others). Would she forgive them? Or would she not reveal who she is at all?

Now that would be really interesting. And instead of you convincing her to make the decision to take revenge on them or forgive them, she should make the decision based on how you influenced her in ME2 and ME3 up to that point. If you convinced her to forgive Aresh in ME2, she may be more inclined to forgive her parents. If you told her to kill Aresh, then she'd be more inclined to take revenge on her parents if she found out they sold her to Cerberus. Other moments could factor into her decision, but the one with Aresh would be the most significant I think.

I like the ideas. Haven't they done something similar with Garrus in ME2? I remember in his loyalty mission Garrus talks about how killing is always the best option and that he learned that from Shepard -- if you let Garrus kill people or kill people yourself more casually in ME1 of course (or maybe it just depends on his mission with that Dr. Saleon, don't know for sure).

I would like to see more of this stuff put into ME3 with other squadmates, like Jack as Jackal mentioned and of course Garrus again with wether or not you let him kill Sidonis.

Garrus is veangeful either way, but if in ME1 you agreed with him that the end justifies the means, then he'll bring it up during his loyalty mission in ME2 if you tell him to not be so veangeful.

But I would like to see your squadmates in ME3 make decisions for themselves based on how you influenced them in ME2. That would really make you feel like you affected them and that your actions truely do have consequences.

[Mondo47]

This might sound a little sadistic, but the main reason the sold-by-her-parents-option appeals to me the most is the potential for turmoil; it's the inner turmoil that makes Jack so real, the fact that Jack feels. Couple that with the gaping holes in her past, and she just creates interest. If one of those holes should be filled, it would fit the character if it created some conflict. Jack's a growing character after all, and all her developments come out of this stuff bubbling just under her surface.

I like the idea of Shep's treatment of her potentially changing the outcome of the encounter, and there's a chance here for one of the least well-rounded characters to get some development in their character - Shepard. What if a Shep that has romanced Jack goes with her on this little journey, they find out the rather sad truth, and Shepard loses it? I know if I took my lover to hunt down their long lost parents and the truth is they casually, needlessly sold her and there wasn't a shred of guilt or remorse... well, someone would be getting force-fed my Carnifex. If Jack then becomes the voice of reason in that situation...

Man, am I gonna have to write that one eventually

Ok, part of me (the sentimental part) would like Jack to find someone other than Shepard that would care about her, but an event that makes her realise the crew of the Normandy is as real and caring a family as any would be just as sweet. Don't get me wrong, I feel for our girl, but I think it's out of these moments of doubt, fear, anger, strength, sorrow and humanity that Jack displays that have made her come to life for so many of us. If Jack's past was to be truly explored, it would be all the richer for some pathos as opposed to some sugardusting of schmaltz.

[Pacifien]

It's an unpopular opinion, maybe, but hell, I don't romance Jack, so I can have all the unpopular opinions about Jack that I want: I don't think her relationship with Shepard lasts. The best thing Shepard does for her is show her that trust is a good thing, to open her up to accepting new people. He's just the start on her path to a better life.

[Jackal904]

Mondo47 wrote...

This might sound a little sadistic, but the main reason the sold-by-her-parents-option appeals to me the most is the potential for turmoil; it's the inner turmoil that makes Jack so real, the fact that Jack feels. Couple that with the gaping holes in her past, and she just creates interest.

Yeah I know what you mean. Part of me feels bad for wanting something like that to happen with Jack, but c'mon, that would be extremely interesting to see how the whole conflict plays out. And it's moments of intense emotional stress that makes Jack so deep and authentic.

I like the idea of Shep's treatment of her potentially changing the outcome of the encounter, and there's a chance here for one of the least well-rounded characters to get some development in their character - Shepard. What if a Shep that has romanced Jack goes with her on this little journey, they find out the rather sad truth, and Shepard loses it? I know if I took my lover to hunt down their long lost parents and the truth is they casually, needlessly sold her and there wasn't a shred of guilt or remorse... well, someone would be getting force-fed my Carnifex. If Jack then becomes the voice of reason in that situation...

Man, am I gonna have to write that one eventually

Now that would be pretty awesome. Jack trying to convince Shepard not to kill someone. Oh the irony.

Pacifien wrote...

It's an unpopular opinion, maybe, but hell, I don't romance Jack, so I can have all the unpopular opinions about Jack that I want: I don't think her relationship with Shepard lasts. The best thing Shepard does for her is show her that trust is a good thing, to open her up to accepting new people. He's just the start on her path to a better life.

Honestly though, I don't see how Jack and Shepard's relationship won't last. There is no reason it shouldn't. In fact, and I'm being as unbiased as I can be, I think their relationship would be the least likely to get cut short because it is more deep and real than the other relationships.

Modifié par Jackal904, 01 juin 2010 - 12:57 .

[MHRazer]

yorkj86 wrote...

As an aside, I like Mondo's idea about Jack's parents living in a run-down slum at some mining establishment, but whenever I try to envision the scene, my mind always defaults to Fry and Leela sneaking in to New New York to see her parents.

Good, I'm not the only one who did that. 

[Pacifien]

Well, there was that time I got the posters in the Garrus thread wondering if I was troll thanks to my opinion of that relationship. But then I once wrote a post about how Leia dumped Han's ass after Return of the Jedi. I just don't automatically go for interpreting the relationships as the deepest of loves and the happiest ever afters. I think people then assume I'm interpreting the relationships for doom, gloom, and hatred, but I'm not doing that either.

Like York said, Tali is being pegged for the Admiralty Board. That in and of itself might put an end to her relationship with Shepard. What I see driving Shepard and Jack apart is Shepard's desire to serve. Now, this depends on your interpretation of Shepard, because certainly your version could have him telling the Council, the Alliance, and possibly even Cerberus to just **** off. But my Shepard is still a Spectre, still willing to work within the system. Jack doesn't strike me as a gal content to work within the system.

God, geek mode turned up to 11 here, but I can see it being very much like Sinclair and Catherine Sakai from Babylon 5. Two people with an on/off relationship because their different lives kept getting in the way. Though I think it's implied they eventually do end up together.

[Jackal904]

Pacifien wrote...

What I see driving Shepard and Jack apart is Shepard's desire to serve. Now, this depends on your interpretation of Shepard, because certainly your version could have him telling the Council, the Alliance, and possibly even Cerberus to just **** off. But my Shepard is still a Spectre, still willing to work within the system. Jack doesn't strike me as a gal content to work within the system.

That makes sense, but my Shepard isn't like that. Yes my Shepard is still a Spectre, but only to not burn bridges. I won't hesitate to tell the Council to go **** themselves if they try to throw the slightest bit of redtape at me. So essentially my Shepard is on his own, and he just uses Cerberus and the Council as resources if they want to help, if not, then they can go fudge themselves.

[royceclemens]

Concerning Jack's origin, while I'm still hitching my wagon to the Homegrown/Miranda's sister theory, some family that had her taken against their will would be nice.  The simple odds of someone playing through both games having romanced Jack are one in seven.  Figure in the ME3 LIs and those odds go down even lower.  In light of that, Jack needs someone.  That'd be a horrible fate, being alone for the rest of her life unless she's romanced.

As for the happily ever after with Jack, who knows?  They may and they may not.  But in any event, I invoke the Tethercat Principle.  Simply stated, the last thing we see a character do is the thing they're doing forever from that point (at least in the viewer's mind).  They don't have to make it to a ripe old age together.  They just have to make it to the end of ME3.

[royceclemens]

Well, I tried to explain myself so there wouldn't be a need to google it. But it appears I failed.



The principle still stands, though. How many of us are imagining the interim between ME2 and ME3 as Jack still sitting in the subdeck until the mythical "bridge" DLCs come along and tell us otherwise? She's waiting down there just like we are.

[Jackal904]

royceclemens wrote...

In light of that, Jack needs someone.  That'd be a horrible fate, being alone for the rest of her life unless she's romanced.

She still has Shepard regardless of whether or not Shepard romances her. He's still there for her even if they aren't romantically involved, just like he is with every other squadmate. But if you're refering to a time when Shepard is "retired", I wouldn't worry about something so far down the line that we'll never see. Like you said, lets go with the tethercat principle. Just assume Shepard and all of his squadmates are forever fighting evil together as one big happy galaxy-saving family .

[Pacifien]

I think that so long as Shepard thinks of you as part of his crew, he will always be there for you.

[Gethforceone]

Jackal904 wrote...

royceclemens wrote...

In light of that, Jack needs someone.  That'd be a horrible fate, being alone for the rest of her life unless she's romanced.

She still has Shepard regardless of whether or not Shepard romances her. He's still there for her even if they aren't romantically involved, just like he is with every other squadmate. But if you're refering to a time when Shepard is "retired", I wouldn't worry about something so far down the line that we'll never see. Like you said, lets go with the tethercat principle. Just assume Shepard and all of his squadmates are forever fighting evil together as one big happy galaxy-saving family .

That's how I choose to see it, the concept of any of them growing old is just too foreign a thought.  

Modifié par Gethforceone, 01 juin 2010 - 05:19 .

[Errol Dnamyx]

No one with her biography would age well... stress, bad food, injuries, torture, drugs and so on.

[Epantiras]

I have the feeling that ME3 will be open ended, without forcing a "everyone lived happily forever after" and leaving an open door for a story driven ME4 (wich will be unlikely since it seems the ME universe is going multiplayer).
Or a Kotor-like ending: Shepard went to dark space to fight the Sith Lords Reapers and left everyone behind. Most. Disappointing. Ending. Ever. Well, after Neverwinter Nights 2 "the roof collapses and everyone dies. Or not? Buy the expansion if you want to know".

[Jackal904]

Epantiras wrote...

I have the feeling that ME3 will be open ended, without forcing a "everyone lived happily forever after" and leaving an open door for a story driven ME4

That would be great. Then I won't be completely depressed at the (supposed) end of my favorite franchise, because there will always be that feeling that maybe, just maybe, BioWare will make an ME4 .