20813 réponses à ce sujet

[zvbxrpl]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

There are Bioware games with gay/lesbian/bisexual content in them right now.  One can play them.  Yet instead people want to change ME to meet their own wish fulfillment , and feel that they are entitled to that content.  If they are refused the content, they howl as if their rights are being violated, and that Bioware is somehow portraying sterotypes that are unhealthy, and against their personal beliefs.

I don't really know what to say to this.  If I go with my gut, I'll lapse into personal attacks.  If I try to be nice, I'll condescend by telling you what you may already know.

Gay people feel entitled to representation in popular media because they are.  If ME only allowed MaleShep, would you be telling female players that their desire to play a woman was "wish fulfillment?"  Seriously dude.  It's pretty ****ty out there when it comes to marginalizing gay people, so much so that any gay characters that do not pander to gross stereotypes are an unequivocally good thing.

Seriously, getting wrongheadedly pissed off about percieved political correctness is ugly, and I don't like hearing about "oh those gay people are so selfish for wanting to not only have hetero romances in a game they play."  Honestly, if a same sex romance isn't your cup of tea, you can romance any of the opposite sex LIs.  It's just fair to give the same consideration to people whose cup of tea isn't an opposite sex romance.


*****
All that being said, I'm still not sure a FemShep/Jack subplot should be the form that the same-sex romance takes.  I'm less sure it shouldn't than I was, though.


EDIT:  Hey, Mondo!  Good to see another Marx Brothers fan on the boards!

Modifié par zvbxrpl, 14 juin 2010 - 11:13 .

[hawat333]

Oh god, finally someone gets it!

[zvbxrpl]

Ok, Johnny. If you say York represented your position accurately, then it's not that dissimilar from mine. (As I understand it, yours is "Don't retcon Jack's sexuality, but same-sex LIs in ME3 are ok." and mine is more along the lines of "Have same-sex LIs in ME3, but maybe Jack wouldn't be a good choice." Correct me if I'm wrong). It's more a question of priorities than of actual disagreement over fundamental elements of the game.

Forgive me if I came off as harsh. I've seen a lot of arguments that look on the surface like yours where the main point was a veiled "No gay in my gaems!" That, apparently, was not in fact your point. Maybe a little more clarity on both our parts wouldn't hurt. I've got no hard feelings toward you, and I hope you have none toward me.


EDIT AFTER YOUR LAST POST:  Aaand, you still seem to not be getting how much you sound like a straight person whining about those gays who don't realize how good they have it.  Seriously dude, whining about not being accomodated is something white straight men do too, as you are proving right now.

Modifié par zvbxrpl, 14 juin 2010 - 11:51 .

[LiquidGrape]

[Mondo47]

Oh, and just to clarify, what I was saying (and perhaps not elucidating very well) that yes, I fully support and endorse LGBT characters in video games (and comics, movies, tv shows, whatever), but please, only where the writer wants it. To me, the writer is God, and if for instance the writer wanted our square-jawed space commander hero to be gay, I'd love it (one day someone will make a game where I can finally run around being Freddie Mercury in Space), but a writer shouldn't feel obligated to do it if they don't want to. I'm not sure what's worse; a writer being obligated to work in a character that isn't in their vision for a story, or a writer crowbarring-in a character to please a section of the audience. At the end of the day, it's the writer's vision, and we shouldn't go all torchwielding mob on them if it's not our vision too. It'd be nice if it was, but it's not a tying-up-and-chucking-over-the-side offence if it isn't.

Like I say, I'm not out to step on toes or offend here, it's just my Alan Moore gland talking there... I mean, the project I'm currently working on, out of eight central characters, two are bi, one is lesbian, three are straight, one abstains and one has no functioning gender - and that's before I even get to male characters! Sexuality is important to me, but I'm not doing because I feel I have to; it's because the characters came into my head and told me themselves (sounds nuts, but that's how it goes). I'm sure once it rolls out that some readers will not agree with what I've done, but at the end of the day it's my choice as writer to do it.

Hail, hail Freedonia! Peace(nik) out

[zvbxrpl]

And, once again, Mondo points out stuff I hadn't even thought of.

[drunken pyromaniac]

zvbxrpl wrote...

@ Drunken Pyromaniac: Eh. Established sexuality is less established than you think. Or maybe that's just a college thing. All I know is a graduating Senior I know just started expressing interest in girls on her last day of classes.

True, some don't realize they're gay or bi until later in life. This generally applies to people who are sexually repressed or from a conservative sort of background though. (not political) Jack, of course, does not fit that mold. We know she's experienced enough to have figured out if it doesn't feel right and she has no no prejudice towards or fear of homosexuality.

I'm fine with new characters being gay or bi, it just cheapens the character to have key components of idenity redefined.

[Jackal904]

LiquidGrape wrote...

I don't think anyone would suggest Jack is homosexual. It's established. She isn't. What isn't established however is whether she swings both ways.
Retcon implies a factual basis for the altered continuity. Jack's dismissal is ambiguous at best. If written right, I can see Jack opening up to a female Shepard in ME3. And I don't think I'm alone in that theory either.

I don't think there's anything wrong with Jack opening up to femShep. That is not what we're talking about. We are talking about a romantic relationship with Jack.

zvbxrpl wrote...

Jackal, I basically agree with everything you said. However, on behalf of my sociologist buddies, I have to inform you that using "norm" to describe something that is simply statistically to be expected can have unfortunate implications. Namely, these would be that, in a lot of theory, "norm" implies that it is the most healthy option as well as the most common. I know what you mean, though, and I'm sure you don't think gay people are unhealthy. Just on the off chance that you ever write a scholarly paper on ME romances, you may want to avoid the discussion with your prof where they ask you if you mean what it sounds like you mean.

/college boy
pedantry

You knew what I meant. Hetersexuality is the most common sexual orientation, but people are so disappointed that Jack is not a lesbian, like it is unusual. Of course I did not mean homosexuality was not "unhealthy."

LiquidGrape wrote...

Jackal904 wrote...

I've
never seen so many people disappointed that a character wasn't bisexual. I guess it's a good thing. I can understand why female gamers would want a femShep/Jack romance. Their heterosexual options aren't exactly great, and I can see how females would be drawn to Jack's character. But I don't know why male gamers would want one except for
"soop3r h4wt girl on girl action!!1"

Why, thank you for that vote of confidence. It's nice to know that general assumptions and sterotypes aren't reinforced in here.

I don't know why you insist on ignoring assumptions like that when you know they are true at least as much as 90% of the time. I don't try to pretend to believe that's not what most male gamers are thinking when it comes to a female/female romance. I'm simply being a realist.

yorkj86 wrote...

Nope. I'm just not seeing the ambiguity.

EDIT: 
Be back in an hour or so.

Neither am I. I think it's clearly straight forwarded that she is not romantically interested in females.

Modifié par Jackal904, 15 juin 2010 - 12:23 .

[Jackal904]

Mondo47 wrote...

Ok, joking aside, I've voiced my opinion on this one before now, but hey, I won't try to dictate terms to people. I'm personally glad she isn't depicted as bi in the game as it would be a merry dance into bisexual bad girl land and to me cheapen the character a little. I've nothing against bisexuality (believe me, I can't possibly ) but I just think the depiction of bisexuals in mass-media has pre-tarred the brush in this case. Even if it was the finest depiction of such in the universe, it'd still be there grinning at me like a goblin. I'm not saying I'm hating on it, I'm just saying I perfer it the way it is. Jack may well have danced all over the park as far as sexual choices in her past, sure, but I like her het for now. It's just me I'm speaking for, so feel free to like your icecream any other flavour. That's all cool, and it won't ruin anything that makes Jack Jack.

Exactly. I 100% agree.

royceclemens wrote...

I can see where you're coming from Mondo, as Jack is far too nuanced a character to bear too many typical male shooter gamers snorting and going "It figures" to Jack's bisexuality, were she so. Ask any idiot misogynist teenage male gamer to spot the bisexual girl, and they'll automatically point to the one who looks like she could kick their ass. It's a sad state of affairs, but nevertheless true. Thing is, it might actually boost her popularity a little, but it would be a hollow victory, as said gamers would be going to it for the wrong reasons, and believe you me, there is nothing I can't stand more than flawed support for a position I hold dear.

And this is exactly what I'm trying to say. I love it when royce says what I'm trying to say. He's much better at it .

Modifié par Jackal904, 15 juin 2010 - 12:32 .

[LiquidGrape]

Jackal904 wrote...

I don't think there's anything wrong with Jack opening up to femShep. That is not what we're talking about. We are talking about a romantic relationship with Jack.

Well, I include the possibility of romance in that assessment. I have absolutely no issue with your disagreement. I just don't concede that her sexuality has been established.

Jackal904 wrote...

I don't know why you insist on ignoring assumptions like that when you know they are true at least as much as 90% of the time. I don't try to pretend to believe that's not what most male gamers are thinking when it comes to a female/female romance. I'm simply being a realist.

Now,  this is true. The only explanation I have for my reaction is a rather tender state of mind at the moment.
It's very probable that a vast majority of the male demographic's appreciation of a f/f romance only stretches so far as some kind of erotic appeasement.
My objection was purely personal; as I found your phrasing, that you couldn't imagine a male being interested in such a match for any other reason, rather upsetting.
But I was being purely egocentric in that reply, and I apologise.

Modifié par LiquidGrape, 15 juin 2010 - 12:31 .

[SpiderFan1217]

That is some serious debating going on. Good on you guys for finding serious stuff to talk about. On to my question: I heard that somewhere in the game Jack commints on TIM's eyes. Does anyone know when/if this happens?

EDIT: Typo.

Modifié par SpiderFan1217, 15 juin 2010 - 12:37 .

[zvbxrpl]

@JohnnyDollar: Dude, I was talking about how you sounded. I make no assumptions about who you are. I have no intention of calling you a homophobe.

Though, between your response and Jackal's, I think I should stop trying to argue about the tone of people I basically agree with outside of a college classroom. I'm gonna try and keep further posts in this discussion about Jack and not about larger issues. Oversensitive tangential pedantry doesn't look good on me.

Modifié par zvbxrpl, 15 juin 2010 - 12:33 .

[Mondo47]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

Which is often used as catch all ad hominem to try to diminish one's argument.

No! Nonononono! I am not having people banging on about use of ad hominems in arguments! Not in this thread! If you say "ad hominem argument" six times while looking in a mirror Smudboy crawls out of the tv set and surgically removes all the fun from the thread! We're better than that! Little people! Can't we all just... get along? \\JackNicholson

I'll try and deflect all this negativity with some humour...



Can't we all just go back to picking on Kelly for having scale itch, huh?

[zvbxrpl]

Mondo, I am in favor of that 100%, seeing as I'm doing a craptacular job of coming off as anything but a butthurt guilty liberal in this argument, even to myself.



Love the motivator.

[SpiderFan1217]

Mondo47 wrote...

Can't we all just go back to picking on Kelly for having scale itch, huh?

  It is never proven that Kelly has scale itch. 

[Mondo47]

SpiderFan1217 wrote...

Mondo47 wrote...

Can't we all just go back to picking on Kelly for having scale itch, huh?

  It is never proven that Kelly has scale itch. 

I pick on Miranda, I get in trouble. I pick on Kelly, I get in trouble. I should start picking on Tali and just commit forum-suicide now

I was going to share my home-made chocolate cinder toffees with you all -



But now I'm just gonna keep 'em for me. Yar boo sucks. Ok, you can have a Jack Motivational instead -



I'll be over here omnomnoming, 'kay?

[zvbxrpl]

Pick on Tali.  It'll be fun.  Flames are nice and toasty.

[stormrain]

Woah, I'm gone for a few hours and suddenly come back to some serious debating. Interesting discussion, but it seemed to be getting a bit heavy.

But to resurrect a previous discussion...

Jackal904 wrote...

1) What description were you given about Jack's character?
2) What was your reaction when you found out you were voicing a badass
chick that's covered in tattoos and has a shaved head?
3) Were you able to find Jack's voice quickly or did you have to experiment
with a few different types of dialects and enunciations before it
sounded right?
4) Jack has quite a few emotional scenes. Was it difficult to nail that
perfect tone for those scenes?
5) Were you able to hear the lines of other characters while you were recording lines?
6) Have you seen a lot of footage of Jack with your voice attached?
7) How do you feel about the about the end result of the character Jack? Is there anything you would change about her?
8) Did you do voice work for other characters in the game?
9) *I can't think of a ninth question*
10) And last but not least, cake or pie?

I tried to avoid directly asking her anything too deep. But I left questions general enough so that she could discuss things deeper if she wants to.

I like these questions. The last one is truly the most vital.

Are we still planning on actually contacting Courtney Taylor, or was that just a fanciful idea we toyed with?

[Nightwriter]

*is disappointed she missed gay debate*

For that matter, is Jack bi? I've always wondered. She says she's been in bed with a male and female couple, and when you ask her about her love life she says "If you mean a girlfriend or a boyfriend, no." I don't think I've ever heard her say she's strictly hetero. So if they made her bi in ME2, it might not technically be a retcon.

Modifié par Nightwriter, 15 juin 2010 - 01:06 .

[Jackal904]

LiquidGrape wrote...
My objection was purely personal; as I found your phrasing, that you couldn't imagine a male being interested in such a match for any other reason, rather upsetting.
But I was being purely egocentric in that reply, and I apologise.

I will admit that line did come off very close minded. I know I generalize too much, but I can't help it because I know those generalizations are true for an overwhelming majority of the time. And I'd be kidding myself if I didn't think those generalizations had some crediblity. I know deep down inside that not everyone fits those stereotypes. But I can't help but assume almost everyone fits those stereotypes, when the stereotypes are true so often.

Anyway, I think we've exhausted this debate. Or I'm just exhausted from debating. Either way lets move on to a new topic .

Mondo47 wrote...

Haha I did think about it. That would be an interesting romance to see play out. Conrad would probably have a heart attack if femShep even hinted to him that he had a chance with her.