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[royceclemens]

Jackal904 wrote...

royceclemens wrote...

She actually point-blank SAID it in the Renegade option? And here I was thinking I was being all awesome and original. Now I feel like a fraud. A big fat sexy FRAUD!

Lol ya she does.


@Mondo

We have so many squadmates because we need them for the final mission. I think that's pretty much it haha. Of course I'm sure the number of surviving squadmates will have some affect on ME3. But I think the main reason is that Shepard simply needs a good amount of people for the final mission.

I've tried my best not to take a single bad guy option since I forced myself through a full villain playthrough of Jade Empire, which was the most soul-crushing, guilt-inducing experience I've ever had with a controller in my hand (outside of playing the Dead or Alive volleyball game, but let's not go there).  Hell, it was guilt that brought me around to Jack in the first place, as I wandered out of the friend-zone with her while I was romancing Tali in my first playthrough.  I felt so bad for the poor girl that I immediately loaded another playthrough when I was done to make it up to her.

The fact of the matter is that I have to rely on either youtube or this forum to now what happens in Renegade playthroughs, so please bear with me if I seem behind the times,as I've so ably demonstrated.  Now that I've tried my best to make up for my shortcomings...

@Mondo: Your ideas are not only good, but indicative of how I think ME will play out.  What's vexing for the player though (or at leats speculative players such as myself) is which characters to sacrifice at the end of ME2 if you want to see how it plays out in ME3 without completely screwing your game.  I think it's been made abundantly clear that Tali, Legion, Mordin, Wrex, Grunt, Liara and Miranda are unloseable without incurring huge penalties.

Given the level of thought you put in this, can you think of any others?

[Jackal904]

royceclemens wrote...

Jackal904 wrote...

royceclemens wrote...

She actually point-blank SAID it in the Renegade option? And here I was thinking I was being all awesome and original. Now I feel like a fraud. A big fat sexy FRAUD!

Lol ya she does.

I've tried my best not to take a single bad guy option since I forced myself through a full villain playthrough of Jade Empire, which was the most soul-crushing, guilt-inducing experience I've ever had with a controller in my hand (outside of playing the Dead or Alive volleyball game, but let's not go there).  Hell, it was guilt that brought me around to Jack in the first place, as I wandered out of the friend-zone with her while I was romancing Tali in my first playthrough.  I felt so bad for the poor girl that I immediately loaded another playthrough when I was done to make it up to her.

The fact of the matter is that I have to rely on either youtube or this forum to now what happens in Renegade playthroughs, so please bear with me if I seem behind the times,as I've so ably demonstrated.  Now that I've tried my best to make up for my shortcomings...

Ya it was tough for me to even choose that option. I seriously sat there for like 30 seconds thinking "Alright, I really want to see what she says if I choose this option, but then I'll feel really guilty." I was planning on reloading it anyway to choose the nice dialogue choices, but still, I was very hesitant to choose any renegade option during that conversation. Thankfully it doesn't make you look like that much of an **** and she doesn't get pissed at you for any renegade option during that conversation except the "This was a bad idea", dialogue option.

It's pretty crazy when a game can make you feel that guilty. Especially when the only consequence is the npc's reaction. I have reloaded old saves because I had said something to someone that had made me feel really guilty.

[Mondo47]

royceclemens wrote...

Given the level of thought you put in this, can you think of any others?

I think I gave it half an hour's thought to be honest - hence my disclaimer at the end after I threw it out to the wolves

The way I see it, if such a situation was to occur, the characters you 'sacrifice' would have to have another character that is able to perform roughly correspondant tasks in the 3-man squad format... and at the very least, at the end Bioware would want to leave you with at least something along the lines of:

1: A tech specialist (AI hacking, drones, etc.)
2: A combat monster (high survivability)
3: A ranged specialist (sniper)
4: A biotic (crowd control)
5: A damage-dealer (high-fire rate, high damage ability)

Now as for places in the story where someone could be 're-assigned' in the model, you'd have to look at specialist knowledge/place in the developing storyline. Soooo:

1) A natural leader (to, well, lead a force lacking leadership)
2) A diplomat (to win over a group Shep cannot... let's face it, that can only be the bloody Council )
3) An expert (some kind of scholarly knowledge that has a gap they can fill)
4) A specialist (someone who has a physical skill only they can perform)
5) The secondary Shep (someone who has to do a bit of everything in a situation)

Now with the story elements, anyone could potentially fill those gaps as it is based on character background as opposed to game mechanics. Looking at the ranged specialist for example, you have Garrus, Thane and Legion. Legion is the obvious one to bail out to do something with the Geth, leaving you (if you saved them) two guys to fill that space in the squad (and both being Love Interests have something of a character shield against being palmed off on others because for a romance to function, they need to be in sight at least a little for you to worry about them - if they bugger off to Planet X and all you get is an Ash/Kaidan radio message "Sorry, I'm boned, I love you." well, riot at the box office ). I already see Thane coughing and wheezing his way through the last game to finally die in Shep's arms just after Harbinger has been royally shafted. Garrus would be a safer bet as he's been your buddy all along, but that's no assurance of safety.

So, going through the options, the Tech section is filled out by Tali and Legion, both of whom have a potential story-door out of the squad, so a third techy is needed. This could be Kasumi, or one of the filler characters I mentioned (I'm liable to think that it'd be a new character, as DLC characters are very optional, and having a storyline hinge on them is like replacing Geordi LaForge with Reg Barkley - it only works in a one-off episode The combat monster however has only ever been Wrex and Grunt (and Ash, but let's be honest, she's no Krogan), so that would have to be a new character by my logic... not a Krogan this time, but maybe my fantasy Turian female (because I keep imagining them as about a head and a half taller than males for some reason... and Shep trying to romance an 8-foot alien would tickle me so damn much ). Biotic, we've got a lot here; Miranda, Jack, Samara/Morinth, Liara, Kaidan or even Jacob could potentially fill out a unit, leaving the story-vital to bow out for some reason and leave a lot of choice. The secondary Shep could be anyone though - literally. I see the role as being similar to the Virmire Gambit - it's a job all your potential candidates can do (though you only had 2 in ME1) but some will be better than others, and potential surviability is in question. Hopefully this bridges the 'how & why' part for everyone! Wake up at the back please!

Ok, that's it in the bare bones. How does this great rambling theory effect our favorite ink enthusiast? Well, I've always seen her as a potential tragi-romance (though I think her not getting a shot at stability and happiness would be absolutely ****ing vile - you heard me, Bioware, I'm calling you a bunch of ***** if you do it ) and her LI status makes her inviting to do something more with because there'll be Sheps out there who have invested feelings in her. The whole Murtock-affair might make her be the one to stay behind to save Shep. Or something that hinges on biotics might cause her some harm. Or Shep might just cast her aside for Ash again and break her heart (pffftttt... as if, just saying, as if ). Tali I think is pretty well-screened for survival as her story-escape-hatch is liable to be pretty safe as it would likely hinge on diplomacy. I'm tempted to think the ME1 love interests are liable to survive due to popularity. A sudden thought would be that there would be another invisible percentage for survival of a special story point for LIs... so you can get all broken up thinking they're dead, then they come staggering through the smoke all beat up... the audience will love that, you know? That's something to take into account with this whole idea - how well will it move the audience (which face it, we are to a great degree as the ME games are very cinematic)? That should give us clues as to the viability of this silly little thought of mine.

Ok, go pick holes everyone! I really don't care because, well, it's just a thought

Modifié par Mondo47, 04 mars 2010 - 08:44 .

[Epantiras]

Jackal904 wrote...
 There is more substance in these 35 pages than in the 1000+ page Tali thread.

This

[Jackal904]

@Mondo
You might wanna fix your quotes in your last two posts.

Modifié par Jackal904, 04 mars 2010 - 08:42 .

[Mondo47]

You're telling me... damn thing keeps doing it... grrr...

Fixefied. Bloody thing.

Modifié par Mondo47, 04 mars 2010 - 08:46 .

[didiware]

I loved her character for some reason, too bad she wasn't a female LI since I always play femShep.

[BobbyTheI]

Epantiras wrote...

Jackal904 wrote...
 There is more substance in these 35 pages than in the 1000+ page Tali thread.

This

Now, now, that's unfair.  Look, somebody posted the 2,000th DeviantArt picture of Tali, and there were five pages of responses afterward saying how awesome it is!  How can you say that's not substance?

[Mondo47]

Now now, don't tempt them to come over here and saturation-bomb us with big pink fluffy hearts and pics of Tali in a wedding veil... we'll go up like vampires in daylight

[gneissguy2003]

I absolutely, 100% agree with the comment on the absurdly lopsided amount of awesome in these few forum pages versus the general lack of it in the Tali posts. Don't get me wrong, I do like Tali as a character, but I went and checked out that "Tali 3.0" fan thread... and I never want to go in there again. It's so trite, and it's sad to believe that many of those people are adults. I love this thread and the intelligence and thoughtfullness that has been going into so many of the posts. Thank you, everyone, for creating not just a fan thread for Jack, but also for creating a thread where thinking is rewarded. Though, honestly, I'm slightly ashamed to admit that I wouldn't mind seeing some tasteful fan art of Jack... especially something depicting her adventure in which she "helped" a parade be less boring.



As for Mondo's hypothesis on how ME 3 will play out, I'd actually been thinking of something along similar lines. It would make sense that many of the squad mates from ME 2 would potentially be vital to the gathering of different forces in ME 3 (supposing they survive and that creating a vast army is indeed the goal of the 3rd game). Unfortunately, Jack doesn't necessarily end up being one of those people if that's the scenario we're handed, which, sadly, makes her somewhat expendable.



Then again, maybe she ends up helping to garner the trust of vigilante groups, perhaps renegade human biotics, for Shepard's cause. We already saw in ME 1 that human biotics aren't trusted by many people and are discriminated against to a certain degree. Jack, being such a powerful biotic and having the background she does could give her an edge in persuading such people to align with Shepard for the benefit of all. Just a thought.



Thanks again to everyone for all the wonderful, thoughtful posts.

[BobbyTheI]

One ray of hope I have that, at the very least, Jack and all other LIs will at least appear in ME3 is the whole thing about how cheating on your ME1 LI has consequences.  And it's really hard to play out those consequences when the person in question that you cheated with is long gone.  "How dare you cheat on me with that one person who doesn't even make an appearance in this game?"

Plus, as many people who have said in comparing the two games, ME1 was more about the overarching plot than the characters you fought with, whereas ME2 was all about the characters.  So while it makes more sense that the characters from ME1 were kinda just given cameos, considering the entirety of ME2 was based around getting to know the people in your squad, I think it'd be goofy to not, at the very least, have them appear in ME3 if they survived.

So, I'm pretty sure Jack will at least show her face in ME3.  As far as her having a larger role... well, that's why I'm here pumping up this thread. 

[Jackal904]

gneissguy2003 wrote...

As for Mondo's hypothesis on how ME 3 will play out, I'd actually been thinking of something along similar lines. It would make sense that many of the squad mates from ME 2 would potentially be vital to the gathering of different forces in ME 3 (supposing they survive and that creating a vast army is indeed the goal of the 3rd game). Unfortunately, Jack doesn't necessarily end up being one of those people if that's the scenario we're handed, which, sadly, makes her somewhat expendable.

Think of it this way. We won't have to give her up to help people out. She'll stay with Shepard the whole time .

Modifié par Jackal904, 04 mars 2010 - 09:40 .

[gneissguy2003]

Jackal904 wrote...

gneissguy2003 wrote...

As for Mondo's hypothesis on how ME 3 will play out, I'd actually been thinking of something along similar lines. It would make sense that many of the squad mates from ME 2 would potentially be vital to the gathering of different forces in ME 3 (supposing they survive and that creating a vast army is indeed the goal of the 3rd game). Unfortunately, Jack doesn't necessarily end up being one of those people if that's the scenario we're handed, which, sadly, makes her somewhat expendable.

Think of it this way. We won't have to give her up to help people out. She'll stay with Shepard the whole time .

Which means more sexy time... on the couch... in awkward positions. 

And as for you what said, BobbyTheI, don't forget that it's entirely possible to romance someone in ME 2 before the suicide mission and watch them die during the ensuing flight to the Collector base because of lack of upgrades. For instance, you romance Jack, have the romantic moment in Shep's quarters, and then because you didn't upgrade the hull armor she dies when the Occulus attacks. BAM! You "cheated" on your ME 1 LI, but your ME 2 LI is now dead. It makes me curious how such a situation would play out in ME 3, though I don't think I could ever willingly do that to Jack after romancing her.

[Heyalrey]

Yeah I'm afraid Bioware will go the cameo route with Jack, and come up with some half baked explanation that just doesn't fit.



"She went off to hunt down a band of mercenaries that wronged her in the past"

or

"She's trying to shut down the school for biotic children"



None of that makes any sense in the context of the paragon romance. Shepard means way too much to Jack for her to go off and do anything without him.



If you didnt paragon romance her? Then it makes all the sense in the world for her to be gone by the time ME3 starts. But that's something Bioware is gonna have to sort out... "Nothing else in the universe matters but you" PR Jack vs "Nothing in the universe matters" Jack.

[Mondo47]

gneissguy2003 wrote...
Which means more sexy time... on the couch... in awkward positions. 

Maybe by the time we get around to ME3 Shep will have got padding for the walls - practicality aside, who's for a null-g love scene?

[massive_effect]

It was strange how Shepard seemed to change his personality when playing the Paragon role with Jack. It would have been better if Jack changed her personality in getting comfortable with Shep.

[gneissguy2003]

Mondo47 wrote...

gneissguy2003 wrote...
Which means more sexy time... on the couch... in awkward positions. 

Maybe by the time we get around to ME3 Shep will have got padding for the walls - practicality aside, who's for a null-g love scene?

Now, now... we agreed this wasn't going to turn into the Jack version of the Tali thread.

[Mondo47]

gneissguy2003 wrote...

Mondo47 wrote...

gneissguy2003 wrote...
Which means more sexy time... on the couch... in awkward positions. 

Maybe by the time we get around to ME3 Shep will have got padding for the walls - practicality aside, who's for a null-g love scene?

Now, now... we agreed this wasn't going to turn into the Jack version of the Tali thread.

Damn, foiled again! I thought that might have taken a while to be seen for the bait it was... guess we are the sharpest fan thread in the shed!
Ok, I'll behave now

[Epantiras]

Heyalrey wrote...

Yeah I'm afraid Bioware will go the cameo route with Jack, and come up with some half baked explanation that just doesn't fit.

"She went off to hunt down a band of mercenaries that wronged her in the past"
or
"She's trying to shut down the school for biotic children"

Please no! Bioware, if you're reading this, please avoid using such a bad plot device! (so spoke the player who's hoping that Thane won't die before the ME3 developement ends)

Half the forum (or more) is basically asking Bioware to have the whole (surviving) me2 team back in me3 as RECRUITABLE squad members... they *know* that if they let us down we will assume direct control ;-)
Seriously speaking, I agree with the one who said that me2 is about knowing your squad members. I'd be very disappointed if Bioware wasted great characters just because they're "expendable" in me2.

[gneissguy2003]

massive_effect wrote...

It was strange how Shepard seemed to change his personality when playing the Paragon role with Jack. It would have been better if Jack changed her personality in getting comfortable with Shep.

You know, it's funny. It seems like so many people don't like Jack, and even fewer try to romance her, and perhaps what you said is the reason why that is the case. To have a romance with Jack, Shepard has to be willing to figure her out and put himself out there and maybe be changed by what he sees/finds. You don't have to do that with Miranda and Tali; in fact, those two romances seem more about them eyeing you up and drooling over your awesomeness because you said some cheesy pick-up lines or a couple of friendly remarks.

Jack takes work and a willingess to figure her out even when she actively tries to push you away.

Modifié par gneissguy2003, 04 mars 2010 - 11:30 .

[Welder0]

Yep, Jack's relationship is one for which you actually have to work to a certain extent.



More drama, in this case, carries a greater reward.

[Jackal904]

Epantiras wrote...

Seriously speaking, I agree with the one who said that me2 is about knowing your squad members. I'd be very disappointed if Bioware wasted great characters just because they're "expendable" in me2.

I have faith in BioWare that they won't take that route. I know they kind of did it with most of the ME1 squadmates, but I think they will come back for ME3 or play a much bigger role. They can't just allow you to get attached to these characters and then force them to get killed off or simply become cameos again. They've introduced so many great characters in ME2 and to make them anything less than a squadmate again would be a waste.

BioWare pretty much has the combat and graphics nailed down, and the major technical issues have been eliminated, they really only have to focus on the story and character development. They even said so in an interview with Adam Sessler on G4. So I have faith in BioWare and I believe they will bring back all the squadmates from ME2 into ME3 as squadmates. Plus it would pretty much eliminate a big part of the consequences in the last mission if you'll hardly see your ME2 squadmates in ME3 anyway.

gneissguy2003 wrote...

massive_effect wrote...

It was strange how Shepard seemed to change his personality when playing the Paragon role with Jack. It would have been better if Jack changed her personality in getting comfortable with Shep.

You know, it's funny. It seems like so many people don't like Jack, and even fewer try to romance her, and perhaps what you said is the reason why that is the case. To have a romance with Jack, Shepard has to be willing to figure her out and put himself out there and maybe be changed by what he sees/finds. You don't have to do that with Miranda and Tali; in fact, those two romances seem more about them eyeing you up and drooling over your awesomeness because you said some cheesy pick-up lines or a couple of friendly remarks.

Jack takes work and a willingess to figure her out even when she actively tries to push you away.

Exactly. Every other LI will just fall for you like a rock. They're all like "Oh my god Shepard I want you so much!" and Jack's like "**** off." And because Jack doesn't drool over you, people dislike her. It's probably one reason why Tali is so popular. She makes it so obvious she wants you. She would probably carry you if you said you didn't feel like walking.

Not only does Jack not fall for you right off the bat, but she even tries to push you away. And that's what is so great about her. I think it's great that it's Shepard finally making the effort and not the LI.

Modifié par Jackal904, 04 mars 2010 - 11:51 .

[Mondo47]

gneissguy2003 wrote...

massive_effect wrote...

It was strange how Shepard seemed to change his personality when playing the Paragon role with Jack. It would have been better if Jack changed her personality in getting comfortable with Shep.

You know, it's funny. It seems like so many people don't like Jack, and even fewer try to romance her, and perhaps what you said is the reason why that is the case. To have a romance with Jack, Shepard has to be willing to figure her out and put himself out there and maybe be changed by what he sees/finds. You don't have to do that with Miranda and Tali; in fact, those two romances seem more about them eyeing you up and drooling over your awesomeness because you said some cheesy pick-up lines or a couple of friendly remarks.

Jack takes work and a willingess to figure her out even when she actively tries to push you away.

The change in Shep's attitudes when talking to Jack, even his tone at times, seems a mite manipulative. Ok, you can argue it's Shep reading her and playing to things she'll respond to in order to draw out the real person under the armour. Or it can seem a little... sleazy. Might depend on your gender-spec though

'Jack takes work' - dead on. Kinda like real women generally do, because you really have to be David Bowie for gals to just swoon at you like that.

[gneissguy2003]

Here's a nice little compilation of maleShep talking options with Jack. It's not all of them, obviously, but it's a nice look at the paragon route you can take with her.







I love how she ends the conversation at about 3:30.

[Jackal904]

Mondo47 wrote...

gneissguy2003 wrote...

massive_effect wrote...

It was strange how Shepard seemed to change his personality when playing the Paragon role with Jack. It would have been better if Jack changed her personality in getting comfortable with Shep.

You know, it's funny. It seems like so many people don't like Jack, and even fewer try to romance her, and perhaps what you said is the reason why that is the case. To have a romance with Jack, Shepard has to be willing to figure her out and put himself out there and maybe be changed by what he sees/finds. You don't have to do that with Miranda and Tali; in fact, those two romances seem more about them eyeing you up and drooling over your awesomeness because you said some cheesy pick-up lines or a couple of friendly remarks.

Jack takes work and a willingess to figure her out even when she actively tries to push you away.

The change in Shep's attitudes when talking to Jack, even his tone at times, seems a mite manipulative.

Shepard tries to say things to get a rise out of her. I think it's funny. Like how Shepard kind of toys with her during that one conversation where she says "why aren't you easy?"