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[MHRazer]

This is easily the most interesting thread I've read on these forums. It's great how Jack can inspire so many different views and get so many people taking intelligently about a game.



Jack, I'll be very sad if she isn't in ME3. Unfortunately I can easily see Bioware leaving her out

[Ilzairspar]

I'm thinking she's going to be more part of the story in ME3. The developers like her and I just dont' think the developers would have introduced such a polarizing element without having a bigger plan for her. Or, if she died at the end, a bigger plan connected to her backstory.



I just wish I knew how...



Then again, maybe I'm just hoping for too much.

[BobbyTheI]

Ilzairspar wrote...

I'm thinking she's going to be more part of the story in ME3. The developers like her and I just dont' think the developers would have introduced such a polarizing element without having a bigger plan for her. Or, if she died at the end, a bigger plan connected to her backstory.

I just wish I knew how...

Then again, maybe I'm just hoping for too much.

I think the best way is to just keep doing what we're doing: show that there is a fanbase.  Maybe it isn't as big and verbose as some other ones, but we're still here, plugging away.

As I said way, way back when I first reviewed the game, ME2 could be used in a court case as unassailable proof that BioWare listens to its fans, with the metric ton of fanservice that game put in there.  If they can find time to put references to Blasto and Refund Guy in ME2, they can take the time to give our little group some happiness and bring the convict back. 

[jlb524]

I made a pic some of you may like...

[petipas1414]

Dropping by to show some Jack love )



Personally my favorite romance in the series thus-far!

[royceclemens]

Ilzairspar wrote...

I'm thinking she's going to be more part of the story in ME3. The developers like her and I just dont' think the developers would have introduced such a polarizing element without having a bigger plan for her. Or, if she died at the end, a bigger plan connected to her backstory.

I just wish I knew how...

Then again, maybe I'm just hoping for too much.

Of course there's the theory (that I somewhat subscribe to) that Jack and Miranda are sisters, but this is an entire different kettle of fish.

[Mondo47]

jlb524 wrote...

I made a pic some of you may like...

Ha! Well, I admit, I thought about it...

That scene always gets me... "It''s a good thing you came by when you did, Shepard." Oh, it was, Miranda... we would have had to hose the walls down to get you off them... I do not know how she ever expected to come off in one piece from that. It's like expecting a rhino not to charge you because you can raise your voice at it.

Part of me wishes there had been a showdown similar to the one in ME1 with competing love interests. Do you think Shep would have survived taking the 'Can't I have you both?' option with those two without another four billion credits to put him back together?

[Ilzairspar]

Mondo47 wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

I made a pic some of you may like...

Ha! Well, I admit, I thought about it...

That scene always gets me... "It''s a good thing you came by when you did, Shepard." Oh, it was, Miranda... we would have had to hose the walls down to get you off them... I do not know how she ever expected to come off in one piece from that. It's like expecting a rhino not to charge you because you can raise your voice at it.

Part of me wishes there had been a showdown similar to the one in ME1 with competing love interests. Do you think Shep would have survived taking the 'Can't I have you both?' option with those two without another four billion credits to put him back together?

Wouldn't that end up like Jade Empire?  I haven't played it but a friend of mine said if you try the 'can't I have both' option and they drop you and get together with each other.

....Then again, that might disturb me more

[royceclemens]

Ilzairspar wrote...

Mondo47 wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

I made a pic some of you may like...

Ha! Well, I admit, I thought about it...

That scene always gets me... "It''s a good thing you came by when you did, Shepard." Oh, it was, Miranda... we would have had to hose the walls down to get you off them... I do not know how she ever expected to come off in one piece from that. It's like expecting a rhino not to charge you because you can raise your voice at it.

Part of me wishes there had been a showdown similar to the one in ME1 with competing love interests. Do you think Shep would have survived taking the 'Can't I have you both?' option with those two without another four billion credits to put him back together?

Wouldn't that end up like Jade Empire?  I haven't played it but a friend of mine said if you try the 'can't I have both' option and they drop you and get together with each other.

....Then again, that might disturb me more

Yeah, if you try to be sleazy, Dawn Star and Silk Fox drop you like third period French.  But if you keep saying you can't decide, then, well...

[axl99]

Y'know I sorta did picture Jack as a bit of an artist, especially if she designed those tattoos herself from memory.



I was surprised the lower engineering deck wasn't filled with etched on graffiti or other scribbles stereotypical of a mental institutional patient. Would've been a nice touch in game though.



Considering how much of a biotic powerhouse she is, it'd be interesting to see her literally smear a merc against the wall with his own blood. Seeing how she also loves blowing things up and breaking them apart, I wonder if she wouldn't mind a change of pace and actually make something instead?



She could totally hone her biotic skills making sculptures out of leftover minerals the Normandy's got lying around. Imagine her filleting the curves around a reproduction of Rodin's The Gates of Hell with her mind. That'd be awesome.

[jlb524]

Miranda's arrogance and insistence that 'it wasn't Cerberus that did this' always gets to me in that scene.



OK, maybe TIM didn't know about the pit-fights, and the betting on them that was probably involved. Maybe there was some other crap going on he didn't know about as well, like sexual abuse of the children and stuff like that.



But, bottom line, he knew the basic gist of the outfit. He knew they were buying or kidnapping young children that showed biotic potential. He knew they were subjecting them to experiments and torture to unlock biotic potential in them. He knew that the children were locked in little cells.



Come on Miranda! Admit it!!

[Mondo47]

royceclemens wrote...

Yeah, if you try to be sleazy, Dawn Star and Silk Fox drop you like third period French.  But if you keep saying you can't decide, then, well...

Third period French! Ha! Must file that with my prom-related quips... higher than a prom dress in june, went down faster than a drunken prom date...

[BobbyTheI]

Honestly, the only reasons I ever see that people side with Miranda in that argument come down to "Well, I was romancing her and..." or "Well, she's hotter." It's not like Jack is asking Miranda to personally take responsibility for what happened; all she wants is an admission that Cerberus's actions were wrong.

I mean, even if I was the kind of person that was more into Miranda than Jack, I'd have to admit that the bald girl over there has a damn good point. 

[Mondo47]

Miranda's constantly banging on about how smart she is, yet she's incapable of either reading between the lines or attempting to diffuse the situation. Oh, but Jack went there to pick a fight, the Miridians (well, if we're Jackolytes) say, she's just standing up for herself. Pffftttt... if she really is a genius she shouldn't be poking at someone who can turn her into a meat pretzel (exhibit a - biotic bubble affair... Jack is the mightier biotic). Oh, but it was a rogue cell, they say. Surely Miranda is not so blindly faithful to Cerberus that she can't see that semantics of an argument like that are going to mean nothing to the person that was filled with drugs, experimented on, went through endless surgical procedures and was robbed of any chance to be normal. Oh, but Miranda had a hard childhood too... yeah, daughter of the riches (and admittedly coldest) man in the galaxy? My heart ****ing bleeds... when Miranda has an uplifting collection of rape annecdotes, I'll change my mind.

That argument always gets to me; you can argue the semantics of it forever and a day, but to side with Miranda is to just outright say you don't have a heart, you lack empathy, or you just want to get in her Cerberus-issue ***** suit.

[Yakko77]

I don't dislike Jack so much as I just find her badgirl act a bit forced. Someone as bad**** as her shouldn't need to brag about things so much.

[BobbyTheI]

Yakko77 wrote...

I don't dislike Jack so much as I just find her badgirl act a bit forced. Someone as bad**** as her shouldn't need to brag about things so much.

See, this is the one thing that I don't get about people who hate Jack: this whole idea that she's just pinning you down to the floor and FORCING you to listen to her stories.  She was the one who said, "Put me down in some hole by myself, I'm better off that way."  YOU'RE the one down there who keeps bugging her, wanting to hear more about her.  It ain't like she charged up to the CIC and said, "Oh, hey, Shepard, let me tell you about the time I crashed a colony into a moon!  Damn, I was awesome then!"

I may have said this before, but I've played pretty much every BioWare game, and no matter how much of a hatedom characters have, I tend to see the good side of them.  Even Anomen, who I know a lot of people hate, I was willing to be sympathetic to, because he feels like he has to act that way in order to be a "true" knight.  So, really, there isn't a character that BioWare has written that I have hated.

Except Aerie.

There... there are not enough words for me to properly express how much I hate Aerie.  How much I loathed every single time she opened her mouth and started whining on about how painful her life was, and how she misses her wings, and how it's so useless to just try and how she should just lay down and die...

It's getting me angry again just remembering those conversations to write this.  And the worse part about that is, if you want to stay friendly with her and not immediately blow her off, you HAVE to listen to her.  It isn't like Mass Effect where, if you're not into a character, you just leave them alone.  No, Aerie goes out of her way to bug YOU.

Jack isn't like that.  Jack doesn't want you to sympathize with her.  She doesn't want you to care.  The reason Jack tells you these stories isn't to make herself badass.  It isn't to impress you.  It's to get you to leave her alone.  In a long post I wrote a while back, I detailed how so much of Jack's personality is calculated to push anyone who could show the slightest bit of compassion for her away.  Her stories about her past are just another aspect of that.

"Oh, God, here comes Shepard again, with those big doe eyes of his, wanting to be all 'sensitive' with me.  Why can't that guy leave me alone?  I know, I'll tell him about the murders I've done and the crimes I committed, maybe then he'll see what a damaged person I am and leave me alone."

People are so used to every squad member being just DYING to share everything in their life with them, it's weird to see a character who doesn't want to be buddy-buddy, and would rather you just go the hell away.  Jack is the epitome of that, and I think that's what makes her one of the more interesting characters.

[jlb524]

Well, Miranda won't speak to me anymore b/c I sided with Jack. I could Charm or Intimidate her back into Loyalty, but those options are abhorrent, IMO. You basically tell Miranda you only sided with Jack because she's needs 'special' treatment because she's broken and Miranda is the better person (for the Paragon Charm option). I thought the Renegade Intimidate option would be different but it's not....it's the same crap said differently.



Needless to say, I'm quite satisfied with siding with Jack and losing Miranda's loyalty....even though I just helped her save her sister. 'Ungrateful' is a word that comes to mind.

[Yakko77]

BobbyTheI wrote...

Except you can make Jack a genuine LI  by being compasionate towards her.

[jlb524]

BobbyTheI wrote...

See, this is the one thing that I don't get about people who hate Jack: this whole idea that she's just pinning you down to the floor and FORCING you to listen to her stories.  She was the one who said, "Put me down in some hole by myself, I'm better off that way."  YOU'RE the one down there who keeps bugging her, wanting to hear more about her.  It ain't like she charged up to the CIC and said, "Oh, hey, Shepard, let me tell you about the time I crashed a colony into a moon!  Damn, I was awesome then!"

This is true.  The writers made sure they convey Jack's reluctance to share her past pretty well, IMO.   Everyone else just blurts it out.  In reality, Shepard bugs everyone to talk about their past.  The difference is the added touch they gave to Jack (her reluctance).  The writers did this for a reason.

Except Aerie.

There... there are not enough words for me to properly express how much I hate Aerie.  How much I loathed every single time she opened her mouth and started whining on about how painful her life was, and how she misses her wings, and how it's so useless to just try and how she should just lay down and die...

I liked Aerie only if you don't romance her.  I feel she slowly finds personal strength all by herself and accepts her condition over the course of the game.  If you do romance her, if feels like you're the one who has to do this for her.

[jlb524]

Yakko77 wrote...

Except you can make Jack a genuine LI  by being compasionate towards her.

What do you mean here?  I didn't romance Jack.  I think this all still applies just going the friendship path with her.

[royceclemens]

Mondo47 wrote...

Miranda's constantly banging on about how smart she is, yet she's incapable of either reading between the lines or attempting to diffuse the situation. Oh, but Jack went there to pick a fight, the Miridians (well, if we're Jackolytes) say, she's just standing up for herself. Pffftttt... if she really is a genius she shouldn't be poking at someone who can turn her into a meat pretzel (exhibit a - biotic bubble affair... Jack is the mightier biotic). Oh, but it was a rogue cell, they say. Surely Miranda is not so blindly faithful to Cerberus that she can't see that semantics of an argument like that are going to mean nothing to the person that was filled with drugs, experimented on, went through endless surgical procedures and was robbed of any chance to be normal. Oh, but Miranda had a hard childhood too... yeah, daughter of the riches (and admittedly coldest) man in the galaxy? My heart ****ing bleeds... when Miranda has an uplifting collection of rape annecdotes, I'll change my mind.
That argument always gets to me; you can argue the semantics of it forever and a day, but to side with Miranda is to just outright say you don't have a heart, you lack empathy, or you just want to get in her Cerberus-issue ***** suit.

I'm just so glad the word I made up is catching on...

But the cracky thing about all this is that she'll admit to Shepard that what Cerberus did to Jack was a mistake, but she won't admit it to Jack even if she did start the fight.  And what's Miranda's justification for almost coming to blows?

"She's jeopardizing the mission!"

So a powerful, easily guided woman with personal issues somehow poses more of a threat than the woman who decides to manipulate her into violence because the words "That sucks, I'm sorry" are beyond her?  What the hell kind of sense does that make?  That's like Stephen Colbert poking a bear in the eye!  She should damn well know better.

"Guaging other people's motives" my fat, nerdy hinder.

Modifié par royceclemens, 05 mars 2010 - 05:28 .

[BobbyTheI]

Yakko77 wrote...

BobbyTheI wrote...

Except you can make Jack a genuine LI  by being compasionate towards her.

Yes, because you, as Shepard, wouldn't give up.  The whole arc of the Shepard/Jack love story is you getting past her defenses.  She's trying with all her might to get you to go away, because she's realizing that she might actually feel affection for you, and everyone else she's ever cared about has gotten killed.  So she scares you away any way she can.  She tells you horrible stories about her past, hoping you'll see her as the unredeemable, horrible person she sees herself as.  When that doesn't work, she puts you to the test by offering herself sexually, because that proves to her that all your attempts to get to know her were just because you wanted in her pants.  And when that fails, she starts going on how this is a bad idea, and how she's too messed up to have a relationship because of what happened with Murtock.  

Every conversation with Jack is her trying a new approach to scaring you off, or finding herself a reason to hate you.  And once she realizes that you're not going away, she lets the walls drop, and you get to see the real person inside.

[Yakko77]

jlb524 wrote...

Yakko77 wrote...

Except you can make Jack a genuine LI  by being compasionate towards her.

What do you mean here?  I didn't romance Jack.  I think this all still applies just going the friendship path with her.

Maybe I  read your post wrong but the point I'm making is that Jack rejects your compassion because she has never experienced it in any true sense.  If you show her true compassion and caring she becomes a genuine LI and not just a notch in a long list of one night stands.

Modifié par Yakko77, 05 mars 2010 - 05:41 .

[Yakko77]

jlb524 wrote...

I made a pic some of you may like...

I love the "slap" option but I'm more interested in the Alliance uniform.  I'd totally wear that instead of the space cowboy outfit I  run around in now.

[jlb524]

Yakko77 wrote...

I love the "slap" option but I'm more interested in the Alliance uniform.  I'd totally wear that instead of the space cowboy outfit I  run around in now.

It's a mod for the PC version.  It gives you more casual wear options that don't have the damn Cerberus logo on them