20813 réponses à ce sujet

[Pacifien]

Collider wrote...
Says combat underneath.

Seems to me the poll wouldn't answer the question if Kaidan's biotics are near as strong or as strong as Jack's then. The poll could have been Grunt vs. Jack, nonbiotic vs. biotic, and the answers would lean toward Grunt. They leaned toward Grunt when people were debating who'd win in a fight over nachos.

Actually, Urz won that debate.

[Pacifien]

yorkj86 wrote...
Shall we now get in to semantics about "combat", then?

I did that already.

[Collider]

*chuckle* I made the poll partly because of curiosity that came from reading the posts that said Kaidan has the same or more biotic power/skill than Jack and that he would win in a fight against her. I wanted to see what more people thought. The poll is vague, yea.

Seems to me the poll wouldn't answer the question if Kaidan's biotics are near as strong or as strong as Jack's then.

Only Bioware can answer that question. I was looking for opinions rather than trying to base my judgment of who is stronger on votes from random people.

[Pacifien]

Collider wrote...

*chuckle* I made the poll partly because of curiosity that came from reading the posts that said Kaidan has the same or more biotic power/skill than Jack and that he would win in a fight against her. I wanted to see what more people thought. The poll is vague, yea.

Seems to me the poll wouldn't answer the question if Kaidan's biotics are near as strong or as strong as Jack's then.

Only Bioware can answer that question. I was looking for opinions rather than trying to base my judgment of who is stronger on votes from random people.

Yeah, but I notice the comments focus on Kaidan's more diverse set of skills beyond his biotics, so it doesn't give you much on how people feel about his biotic power/skill in comparison to Jack. That's why I said the poll could have just as well been about Grunt vs. Jack.

But you're getting people's opinions on what they feel is required for better combat skill at least.

[Collider]

JohnnyDollar wrote...
Polls don't mean anything in this forum.

Why don't they? They can reflect, at the very least, the thoughts of those who voted, which is probably the primary focus of every poll (rather than trying to figure out whether Kaidan or Jack is literally the strongest, for example, etc)

[Pacifien]

yorkj86 wrote...
You admitted that it would depend upon the conditions of the fight.  That doesn't say much, unless that was your aim.

I would say analyses are skewed because we don't know, exactly, what, if anything, Jack was taught in learning how to use her biotic abilities.  For example, does she know control to a lesser degree, but prefer brute strength, whereas Kaiden might know only control, and not brute strength?

Jack's combat is entirely geared on might. Kaidan's is trained as a soldier. I don't think being a soldier is going to trump a brute fighter automatically, nor do I think Jack's increased biotic power is going to trump a less powerful biotic.

I've seen Samara vs. Jack, Thane vs. Jack... Wrex vs. Jack. The truth is, Shepard recruited skilled fighters of many different skills. If you control the conditions of the battlefield, you control its outcome. So yes, it depends on the conditions of the fight. There is no right answer on who would win between Jack and Kaidan by simply asking "Jack vs. Kaidan."

[Pacifien]

yorkj86 wrote...
You're pretty much getting only an emotive response from people, nothing else.  A knee-jerk,  "I like this character more than the other one" response.

I don't mind knee-jerk reactions to go with one character over another if the person then explains their reasons. Though with as little information as we get, someone can be rather clever with their reasons to tip the scales in their favor. In their own mind, at least.

Most votes in a poll aren't accompanied by explanations, though.

[Jackal904]

Collider wrote...

Jack vs. Kaidan
Spawned from a few posts I read of people saying that Kaidan is almost as, is strong as, or is stronger than Jack in terms of biotics.

Well if we're talking about actual combat then yes Kaiden would be better, because biotics were much better in ME1. But lore-wise, Jack would shred Kaiden into tiny bits.

[Collider]

yorkj86 wrote...

Collider wrote...

JohnnyDollar wrote...
Polls don't mean anything in this forum.

Why don't they? They can reflect, at the very least, the thoughts of those who voted, which is probably the primary focus of every poll (rather than trying to figure out whether Kaidan or Jack is literally the strongest, for example, etc)

It depends on what's being debated.   If it's objective information, then an answer can be given.   If it's subjective, as is very often the case with "Which character is better at ___", then they don't matter.

If it doesn't matter or not depends on the observer (as well as what constitutes as "mattering" ). I think the results "matter" because my intention was to get a sense of how the community may feel - or to get a look at the opinions of the voters.

[Pacifien]

Collider wrote...
Why don't they? They can reflect, at the very least, the thoughts of those who voted, which is probably the primary focus of every poll (rather than trying to figure out whether Kaidan or Jack is literally the strongest, for example, etc)

Which is what makes polls easily manipulated, so what information is really gained? Is it a true reflection of what people might think in Cake versus Pie or were pie eaters simply more likely to respond? As information gathering goes, it's the least important of all methods in which to obtain said data. At best, it gives you a slight nudge in where you might take your next bit of information gathering.

[Collider]

Pacifien wrote...

Collider wrote...
Why don't they? They can reflect, at the very least, the thoughts of those who voted, which is probably the primary focus of every poll (rather than trying to figure out whether Kaidan or Jack is literally the strongest, for example, etc)

Which is what makes polls easily manipulated, so what information is really gained?

It's self evident, but the information is how many votes were put into certain options. I don't pretend that these polls are infallible at all. I am doing this for my own personal amusement rather than deluding myself into thinking that these polls will be an accurate representation of the community. It's the best way to get a sense of what the community may think that I actually care to do. Since each poll takes me less than a couple minutes to make, it's not exactly an investment.

[Jackal904]

Pacifien wrote...

A fight between the two would entirely depend on the situation in which their fight began.

I don't think so. It's not like Jack is a brainless monkey. Sure she is more reckless than others, but lets not forget that she is the most powerful human biotic in the galaxy. Her sheer power would render her opponent's combat experience negligible. Except for Samara and Shepard because Samara is probably as powerful as Jack, and well, Shepard is Shepard.

Basically, Kaiden can't hold a candle to Jack no matter the scenario. Look at what happens on Virmire. You have to go save his ass from a few geth, while Jack rips through Purgatory like a rhino in a china shop.

[Pacifien]

Well, there's always those who believe a character will win no matter what situation they happen to be in at the time, but I disagree.

[Collider]

I don't think these polls are to be taken seriously, nor should they. I make them because it's fun and I enjoy seeing the results.

Modifié par Collider, 04 juillet 2010 - 12:43 .

[Collider]

I appreciate that gesture york.

Basically, Kaiden can't hold a candle to Jack no matter the scenario. Look at what happens on Virmire. You have to go save his ass from a few geth, while Jack rips through Purgatory like a rhino in a china shop.

I imagine that Kaidan was facing a lot of geth. Jack is strong, but even she can be beaten if the numbers are scaled against her (take the event she mentions in Dark Star's restrooms for an example).

[Pacifien]

yorkj86 wrote...

Pacifien wrote...
Well, there's always those who believe a character will win no matter what situation they happen to be in at the time, but I disagree.

Personally, I haven't taken polls on these threads seriously since Tali came in second behind Jack for "character with the most expressive face in ME2".  No Tali-bashing intended.

I wasn't talking about polls, I was talking in general. Like in the middle of some in-depth conversation about various characters combat skills, some people will feel one character is simply better than others no matter what the situation.

For all the characters in ME1 or ME2, I think each one is a formidable fighter and it would honestly depend on the circumstances of the fight. Well, except for Liara as I never could understand how an archeologist could be that good of a fighter without a fedora and whip. And, okay, Tali might be good with mechanics and hacking, but I don't think she has some elite shotgun skills going on. I can make an argument for Tali over Liara since mechs and geth are a common foe.

Game mechanics over story. If you have someone in your squad, they need to be a good fighter or else there's no reason to ever bring them. Don't let Mordin be an option, just keep him on the ship doing whatever it is that he does. Don't use Kasumi unless hacking is involved and then tell her to keep out of the way while you go play soldier. That would be story over game mechanic, but then that gets complicated.

ETA: Hmm, top post on page 400. I should go find some picture of Jack or something. Nah.

Modifié par Pacifien, 04 juillet 2010 - 12:49 .

[Mondo47]

Pacifien wrote...

yorkj86 wrote...
Pretty sure the question asked only about biotic strength, and nothing else. Jack would smear the walls with him.

The actual poll asks about combat, though.

Well, as with all polls, their results are both highly subjective and prone to having any value thrown out the window by rabid fans that just see a name they like and click that vote button without a second thought. Polls blow. In this place, nine times out of ten they're as much use as a chocolate fire escape. Case closed. Thinking a poll proves anything outside of your own subjective viewpoint is like buying into whatevery theory about Jack the Ripper's identity is in vogue this year as absolute proof.

So, if we're going to be subjective, I'll go on my own experience of the two characters in their relative game environments. Jack, while prone to occasional near-suicidal dashes into the enemy, has proved her worth via use of her almighty crowd-control Shockwave, Warp Ammo, and being generally amusing. She's also pretty as a button and she can pull mechs and space stations apart with her bare, unrestrained rage (albeit only once). Kaiden... stopped being used by me roughly as soon as I got Liara and Wrex... soooo... what can I say? The moron got too close to a Prothean becon and then b*tched about there not being enough room to put the Mako down on Ilos. Oh, and if you treat girls he likes badly he might kill you in a biotic hissy-fit.

Well, Jack wins that one as far as my subjective opinion is concerned. Kaidan tells Jack he doesn't want to hurt her, she headbutts him, tells him she wants to hurt him, and then she stomps on him while he's down. Fight over.

Polls... bloody idiotic at times