20813 réponses à ce sujet

[Epantiras]

yorkj86 wrote...

Nah, man, nah. No character's facial expressions impressed me more than the worried expression on Jack's face, aboard the shuttle after her loyalty mission, as she repeatedly opens and closes the cover on the detonator.

That scene is one of my favourite ones of the whole game! Bioware did a masterful job in making her express her emotions with pose, eyes and a thumb. AND NO WORDS. Words would have ruined it all.

Garrus nervously moving his jaw while aiming at Sidonis is another good example of showing emotions and tension without words, but turians aren't as expressive as humans.

[Mondo47]

Weiser_Cain wrote...

yorkj86 wrote...

Personally, I haven't taken polls on these threads seriously since Tali came in second behind Jack for "character with the most expressive face in ME2".  No Tali-bashing intended.

Well the helmet does force you to look at her eyes but it's really all in the body language. Jack doesn't get very emotive unless you run the romance, then she wins, Miranda has no emotions to emote... oh except for cold. She's good at cold.

I'd disagree there... Tali's body-language to me at least boils down to slumping her shoulders and tilting her head downwards. I'd say 80% of Tali's expressiveness is in her voice acting. Liz does a fairly fantastic job of injecting feeling into a character that visually has very little ability to express... tough job, and a very hard sell, but she does it. Courtenay rounds off Jack very well, but I think just as much as her voice acting sells it,  what completes Jack as an extremely expressive and emotive character is the character itself; the eyes, the mouth, the movement of the body all make a whole that is (in my humble opine at least) one of the most fully realised in video gameing history. Like Epantiras points out, the shuttle sequence - no dialogue, just conflicted expressions and sad eyes and it's sold. Plus her smiles and smirks never career over the central reservation into the Sheploo Smile Effect

Yes, I'd agree Tali is expressive emotionally, but I'd argue as to where the expression comes from.

Actually, just to add, I'd say Miranda's cold aloofness works in her favour in terms of characterisation, particularly when the romance starts. Romantic involvement for Miri must be an odd thing to deal with; so much trust placed in someone else when that's about the one thing she has defined herself by just not sharing... it's probably why her relationship with Jacob went belly-up; she threw herself into it, and then realised she was compromising herself and shut down on the poor guy. The clumsy pawing at Shepard as a method of expressing attraction, almost immediately followed by a dismissal... I'd say it's on the money, there. The only place where Miranda falls completely flat is facial expressions. More than half the time they just don't work.

Modifié par Mondo47, 04 juillet 2010 - 02:32 .

[Jackal904]

JakeMacDon wrote...

Epantiras wrote...

Uhm, looks like the drama is over. I can safely crawl out from my hiding place now.

If you could choose a new power for Jack in ME3, what would it be? (except her powerful cutscene PUNCH OF DOOM)

I'd like to see a biotic 'crush'.  Miranda has "Slam" (which makes me laugh every time), and Jack needs the opposite - she can pick dudes up, make a fist and crush 'em like a beer can and then toss 'em like an empty.

That'd be sweet. 

That would be sweet. I believe that she in-fact originally had that ability and it was also called crush. But they changed it to slam and gave it to Miranda.

JakeMacDon wrote...

Samara wins.  Kaiden wins.  Shepard
wins.  Jack lacks training, focus and discipline.  Those matter. 
She has power, sure, but take that power away, and she's screwed. 
De-powered, Wrex, Samara and Kaiden still win, because it`s far
more about ability and less about strength.  

I strongly disagree. People are acting like Jack is retard when it comes to combat. Obviously she isn't considering everything she has done. She's not some slack-jawed fist dragging juggernaut. She knows how to fight. You say she doesn't know how to properly use her biotics, which I think is obviously very wrong... She is the galaxy's most powerful human biotic for a reason.

Jack would obliterate Kaiden, and I think she would beat Wrex because her biotics are so strong. Samara and Shepard are the only two characters in the game that would give her a run for her money. And I am not being biased. I truely think no one can hold a candle to her in a fight except Samara and Shepard.

Modifié par Jackal904, 04 juillet 2010 - 02:56 .

[Jackal904]

Weiser_Cain wrote...

yorkj86 wrote...

Pacifien wrote...

Well, there's always those who believe a character will win no matter what situation they happen to be in at the time, but I disagree.

Personally, I haven't taken polls on these threads seriously since Tali came in second behind Jack for "character with the most expressive face in ME2".  No Tali-bashing intended.

Well the helmet does force you to look at her eyes but it's really all in the body language. Jack doesn't get very emotive unless you run the romance, then she wins,

LOL. Alright, c'mon now, are you seriously trying to say Tali (whose face you cannot see) is more expressive than the most expressive character in the game? Jack is still very express and emotive outside of her romance.

Oh well, I expected you to try and argue that Tali is more expressive and emotive than Jack. I'm sure you're one of the people who voted for Tali in the poll asking, "Who has the best immune system?"

Modifié par Jackal904, 04 juillet 2010 - 03:08 .

[Errol Dnamyx]

[quote]yorkj86 wrote...

[quote]Pacifien wrote...

Well, there's always those who believe a character will win no matter what situation they happen to be in at the time, but I disagree.[/quote]

Personally, I haven't taken polls on these threads seriously since Tali came in second behind Jack for "character with the most expressive face in ME2".  No Tali-bashing intended.

[/quote]

Well the helmet does force you to look at her eyes but it's really all in the body language. Jack doesn't get very emotive unless you run the romance, then she wins,
[/quote]

[/quote]

quoting for lols

[NICKjnp]

As to the Wrex vs. Jack... we don't know how strong the typical krogan battlemaster is.  There is a reason why they were one of the most feared individuals in the galaxy.  So I think that Wrex would lay Jack right on her ass.... why.... because it is Wrex.  I love Jack but Wrex is... well... Wrex.  They wouldn't fight though because they are both devoted to Shepard.

[Pacifien]

Weiser_Cain wrote...
Well the helmet does force you to look at her eyes but it's really all in the body language. Jack doesn't get very emotive unless you run the romance, then she wins, Miranda has no emotions to emote... oh except for cold. She's good at cold.

I pretty much agree with Mondo's comments about the body language, voice, facial expressions and all of that. I'm actually surprised Bioware was able to get as much emotion out of the eyes as they did without stepping into the uncanny valley. But every attempt they make on a smile beyond a smirk is just... wrong.

But I remember that poll york is referring to which specifically asked about the expressiveness of the eyes, so yeah, I thought the fact Tali got as many votes as she did was hilarious.

ETA: Also I didn't do Jack's romance and found she is still extremely emotive with her eyes. She's just not as emotional with her words.

Modifié par Pacifien, 04 juillet 2010 - 05:06 .

[Pacifien]

Jackal904 wrote...
I strongly disagree. People are acting like Jack is retard when it comes to combat. Obviously she isn't considering everything she has done. She's not some slack-jawed fist dragging juggernaut. She knows how to fight. You say she doesn't know how to properly use her biotics, which I think is obviously very wrong... She is the galaxy's most powerful human biotic for a reason.

I don't think Jack is a complete failure in combat, and I disagree that she automatically loses when up against a well-trained soldier. However, strength in biotics does not equal excellence in combat. If that were the case, any nonbiotic going up a moderately powerful biotic would be **** out of luck.

In all the Jack vs. x discussions, I've always maintained that it greatly depends on the situation. Control the battlefield, you control the outcome. Usually. Chaos does get its day every now and then. Jack's biotics aren't going to automatically annihilate Kaidan and he's not going to automatically out-strategize Jack.

I'm simply not keen on the idea that Jack wins, no question. But that doesn't make me keen on the idea that Jack loses, no question. Shepard didn't recruit incapable fighters.

[axl99]

If you really want to get technical, it's TIM getting Shepard to recruit his team. Grunt and Legion are the only exceptions.

I do wonder if Jack is familiar with guerilla warfare tactics. It's possible she's picked up a number of those on the run from Cerberus and during her time as a pirate.

The situational specialties of each character I'd still chalk up to gameplay mechanics more than lore.

Modifié par axl99, 04 juillet 2010 - 05:30 .

[Pacifien]

axl99 wrote...
If you really want to get technical, it's TIM getting Shepard to recruit his team. Grunt and Legion are the only exceptions.

I do wonder if Jack is familiar with guerilla warfare tactics. It's possible she's picked up a number of those on the run from Cerberus and during her time as a pirate.

Well, I suppose Shepard could have gone to recruit the likes of Samara and found her to be bat**** insane, so he just walks away.

I think Jack is particularly skilled at guerilla warfare tactics and, basically, unconventional fighting. Her whole persona is about catching you off guard. Each squadmate brings a different strategy, which I take as the Illusive Man making sure Shepard will be able to have the right person for the job no matter what the Collectors throw at him.

For instance, the Illusive Man didn't know they'd be in a situation where a Biotic Shield would be needed, but he did make sure that Shepard had access to two extremely powerful but fundamentally different biotics. Turns out those two biotics could both accomplish the same task that required one of their strength, but it could have gone differently.

[Pacifien]

Huh. I hadn't thought of it until now, but the Illusive Man's list was really all about duality of approach for squadmates that possess the similar skills.

Jack vs. Samara
Mordin vs. Okeer
Kasumi vs. Tali
Archangel vs. Thane

[NICKjnp]

Pacifien wrote...

axl99 wrote...
If you really want to get technical, it's TIM getting Shepard to recruit his team. Grunt and Legion are the only exceptions.

I do wonder if Jack is familiar with guerilla warfare tactics. It's possible she's picked up a number of those on the run from Cerberus and during her time as a pirate.

Well, I suppose Shepard could have gone to recruit the likes of Samara and found her to be bat**** insane, so he just walks away.

I think Jack is particularly skilled at guerilla warfare tactics and, basically, unconventional fighting. Her whole persona is about catching you off guard. Each squadmate brings a different strategy, which I take as the Illusive Man making sure Shepard will be able to have the right person for the job no matter what the Collectors throw at him.

For instance, the Illusive Man didn't know they'd be in a situation where a Biotic Shield would be needed, but he did make sure that Shepard had access to two extremely powerful but fundamentally different biotics. Turns out those two biotics could both accomplish the same task that required one of their strength, but it could have gone differently.

The only character I don't understand being in the suicide mission is Thane... what is his job?  He can't do the vents.  He can't hold the biotic shield.  He can't lead the teams.  The only thing that he can do apparently is be the default radio man.

[Jackal904]

NICKjnp wrote...

As to the Wrex vs. Jack... we don't know how strong the typical krogan battlemaster is.  There is a reason why they were one of the most feared individuals in the galaxy.  So I think that Wrex would lay Jack right on her ass.... why.... because it is Wrex.  I love Jack but Wrex is... well... Wrex.  They wouldn't fight though because they are both devoted to Shepard.

Look how easily Shepard kills Wrex. Not only does he have the reaction time of a sloth, but one smack and he's out. I don't think Jack would have a problem killing Wrex.

Pacifien wrote...

She's just not as emotional with her words.

She does an amazing job at hitting that tone where she's about to cry but trying really hard not to. And that's what Jack is about. And her tone when she is crying during the Murtock conversation is again very emotional. I'm not really sure what you mean by "emotional with her words." She says she's not good at soft stuff. The actual tone of her voice during emotional moments though is very, well, emotional.

Modifié par Jackal904, 04 juillet 2010 - 06:02 .

[stormrain]

@NICK Thane was just there for Femsheps, apparently.

Pacifien wrote...
Jack vs. Samara
Mordin vs. Okeer
Kasumi vs. Tali
Archangel vs. Thane

That may have been TIM's intention, but story elements turned it into...

Jack vs Samara
Mordin vs ?
Grunt vs Zaeed
Kasumi vs Tali vs Legion
Archangel vs Thane

Miranda and Jacob are there to fill Ashley and Kaidan's shoes from the first game.

[Pacifien]

NICKjnp wrote...
The only character I don't understand being in the suicide mission is Thane... what is his job?  He can't do the vents.  He can't hold the biotic shield.  He can't lead the teams.  The only thing that he can do apparently is be the default radio man.

He had a role that was switched at the last minute to somebody else.

[Collider]

What was that Pacifien?

[Pacifien]

Jackal904 wrote...
She does an amazing job at hitting that tone where she's about to cry but trying really hard not to. And that's what Jack is about. And her tone when she is crying during the Murtock conversation is again very emotional. I'm not really sure what you mean by "emotional with her words." She says she's not good at soft stuff. The actual tone of her voice during emotional moments though is very, well, emotional.

I'm talking specifically if you don't romance her.

[Pacifien]

Collider wrote...
What was that Pacifien?

I promised not to tell.

I came across the information while trying to figure out some details about the suicide mission, though.

[NICKjnp]

@Jackal904

Come on... this is you being a fan of the character.  As we all know Shepard is unstoppable.  Also... it is a cutscene where the the option is "kill wrex".  Shepard could do the same thing if there was an option for a convo with Jack that says "kill Jack".  Jack is squishy and Wrex, being a Krogan battlemaste, is not.  Wrex was the toughest squadmate from the first game.  Only a Solier Shepard with barrier as a bonus power had more defenses.  I like both Jack and Wrex... but Wrex has both biotic strength and, more importantly, he has experience that Jack does not have.  Jack vs. Miranda... Jack all the way.  Jack vs. Wrex... it's going to be Wrex.

The real debate should be who would win a fight that is Samara vs. Wrex.

Modifié par NICKjnp, 04 juillet 2010 - 06:15 .

[Collider]

Pacifien wrote...

Collider wrote...
What was that Pacifien?

I promised not to tell.

Aww...

I came across the information while trying to figure out some details about the suicide mission, though.

From what I understand, Mordin was at one point in development going to be a biotic.

[Jackal904]

Pacifien wrote...

I'm simply not keen on the idea that Jack wins, no question. But that doesn't make me keen on the idea that Jack loses, no question. Shepard didn't recruit incapable fighters.

Exactly. A lot of people think Jack is incompetent when it comes to combat. Clearly she knows how to fight. And it's not like Kaiden is some high ranking tactition. He's a typical biotic alliance soldier. His L2 implants just means he's a little more powerful than the rest with L3 implants, nothing else. It may seem unfair to you if Jack were to win against Kaiden in every fight, but c'mon, you know it's true. Kaiden has some training experience, but Jack probably has a lot more raw combat experience. She has been fighting her entire life, even as kid fighting other kids at Teltin. I am baffled at where people are getting the idea that Jack is not experienced in combat. It thought completely eludes me.

Modifié par Jackal904, 04 juillet 2010 - 06:14 .

[Pacifien]

Collider wrote...
From what I understand, Mordin was at one point in development going to be a biotic.

I think Ecael found some dialogue even of Mordin trying to hold the Biotic Shield?

It'd be interesting if Mordin's and Thane's powers were switched. Based on how Thane was introduced during E3 a couple years ago, I would have never thought he'd also be a biotic. Tech skills, yes. Biotic, no.

I suspect that the developers actually started working on the details of the suicide mission first and then worked backwards from there. Which is why some people wonder why certain characters couldn't do certain roles. Or why certain characters would be switched at the last minute...

ETA: Dammit, I need to stop monopolizing the top of the page with non-Jack discussion!

Modifié par Pacifien, 04 juillet 2010 - 06:17 .

[NICKjnp]

Just post a Jack picture... to make it "on topic."

[axl99]