20813 réponses à ce sujet

[Collider]

Not sure I get your meaning. Having a techie and a soldier-type character alongside Jack would make for a balanced squad.

[Pacifien]

I never did balanced squads in ME1. I was tech power all the way. Except for when I was an Adept, then it was biotic power all the way. Plays the same as an Adept in ME2, my squad is almost always fellow biotics then. Helps that I don't need to keep a tech handy to hack things anymore.

Jack's actual powers in the game seem to focus more on AoE, but her cinematics and her shotgun seem to focus on CQC. I'd have to really think about what kind of fighter she really is based on the personality and history we're given, and less on the game mechanics or cool cinematics.

At the moment, I'm thinking Jack would work best with Grunt and Thane. Three squadmates who get a sense of the battlefield quickly and then work through it on their own terms. Jack and Grunt get up close, Grunt effectively becoming Jack's shield. Thane provides the sniping cover from afar and lends support toward Jack's biotics.

ETA: It's actually a better question than pitting squadmate versus squadmate. Becomes more about thinking how their fighting skill is advantageous and complimentary to each other, as they all have to actually work together.

Modifié par Pacifien, 05 juillet 2010 - 05:53 .

[Gethforceone]

A Sniper would work well I think.

[NICKjnp]

Pacifien wrote...

I never did balanced squads in ME1. I was tech power all the way. Except for when I was an Adept, then it was biotic power all the way. Plays the same as an Adept in ME2, my squad is almost always fellow biotics then. Helps that I don't need to keep a tech handy to hack things anymore.

Jack's actual powers in the game seem to focus more on AoE, but her cinematics and her shotgun seem to focus on CQC. I'd have to really think about what kind of fighter she really is based on the personality and history we're given, and less on the game mechanics or cool cinematics.

At the moment, I'm thinking Jack would work best with Grunt and Thane. Three squadmates who get a sense of the battlefield quickly and then work through it on their own terms. Jack and Grunt get up close, Grunt effectively becoming Jack's shield. Thane provides the sniping cover from afar and lends support toward Jack's biotics.

ETA: It's actually a better question than pitting squadmate versus squadmate. Becomes more about thinking how their fighting skill is advantageous and complimentary to each other, as they all have to actually work together.

Thane and Jack work together because their powers together essentialy form the powers of an adept.
Garrus and Zaeed go together because they are essentialy blue suns destroyers.
Grunt doesn't need to go with anyone... he can hold the line himself while unloyal (nothing is better than that).
As viewed in many videos in this subforum... Shepard doesn't really need anyon as well.

Still... I love Jack and her squad warp ammo.  I just finished a ng+ insanity vanguard level (Grunt's recruitment).  Jack and I went blue suns bowling.

[Epantiras]

NICKjnp wrote...
Thane and Jack work together because their powers together essentialy form the powers of an adept.

With my Sentinel Shepard I had Jack/Miranda or Jack/Thane most of the times. Warp+any other biotic power is great, I used to spam it a lot eary in the game.

[Mondo47]

yorkj86 wrote...

Fireworks in Shepard's quarters! And not the ones everyone is used to!

Somehow I don't think even Shepard would get used to those fireworks that easily... as soon as Jack really lets herself get into, erm, the moment... well, need I say more?

I think inappropriate use of munitions would probably be easier to deal with

[Pacifien]

I wasn't really thinking about how Jack works within the game mechanics of the game so much as who'd she work best with in a team based on fighting style and personality. Like if Shepard had to divide the squad and needed to make sure each squad was going to work to the optimum capabilities of each individual.

I don't think Jack would work well with someone like Jacob who is trained as an Alliance soldier and the protocols that come with it. Certainly wouldn't work well with Miranda. Because I think she and Samara have such different biotic styles, I think putting them together would actually hurt the effectiveness of their biotics rather than help. I actually think because of Garrus's own military training, as adaptable as he is with any battle situation, he still works under some military protocol: sounded like most of his team on Omega had similar backgrounds.

So anyway, yeah, Grunt and Thane. All three of them kind of work outside the box and bring unconventional techniques to the fight. There's not much personality clash to get in the way either. I personally think that Jack and Thane are two squadmates who'd be the quickest at ascertaining the layout of a battlefield: Thane because of his perfect recall and Jack because I think her attacks depend on being much quicker than her opponent.

[Jackal904]

JakeMacDon wrote...

Kaiden still has rigorous training and combat experience Jack lacks.

But Jack doesn't lack combat experience, that's what I'm trying to say.

Anyway, we should move on to a different subject. This dead horse has been beaten enough.

Pacifien wrote...

I wasn't really thinking about how Jack works within the game mechanics of the game so much as who'd she work best with in a team based on fighting style and personality. Like if Shepard had to divide the squad and needed to make sure each squad was going to work to the optimum capabilities of each individual.

I don't think Jack would work well with someone like Jacob who is trained as an Alliance soldier and the protocols that come with it. Certainly wouldn't work well with Miranda. Because I think she and Samara have such different biotic styles, I think putting them together would actually hurt the effectiveness of their biotics rather than help. I actually think because of Garrus's own military training, as adaptable as he is with any battle situation, he still works under some military protocol: sounded like most of his team on Omega had similar backgrounds.

So anyway, yeah, Grunt and Thane. All three of them kind of work outside the box and bring unconventional techniques to the fight. There's not much personality clash to get in the way either. I personally think that Jack and Thane are two squadmates who'd be the quickest at ascertaining the layout of a battlefield: Thane because of his perfect recall and Jack because I think her attacks depend on being much quicker than her opponent.

I also think Grunt and Jack would compliment each other well on the battlefield. Grunt could take a lot of the heat while Jack goes on a rampage. But I would have them go with Garrus instead of Thane simply because Garrus is a better leader, and you'll need a good leader to handle the two most reckless squadmates on the team. Plus Jack would probably be more apt to follow Garrus since they both hate Cerberus.

Modifié par Jackal904, 05 juillet 2010 - 03:50 .

[Pacifien]

Sometimes I wonder if Garrus hates Cerberus or is just extremely distrustful of them.

[Pacifien]

Jackal904 wrote...
But Jack doesn't lack combat experience, that's what I'm trying to say.

Anyway, we should move on to a different subject. This dead horse has been beaten enough.

I don't wanna.

I know I say Jack is undisciplined versus a trained soldier, but that's not to say she lacks combat experience. She's run with people who have organized some ambitious heists, like taking over a space station. That's not something you do by walking through the front airlock and start throwing biotic punches at random.

I think her biotics lack discipline, though. She packs a powerful punch, always trained to be make that punch stronger, deadlier. We don't know about her history, but I've made the assumption that she's never really come across a well-trained biotic who could teach her the subtleties of biotic combat. That's where I think Jack and Samara differ in their tactics. Jack's biotics are superiority through strength. Samara's biotics are superiority through finesse.

[Jackal904]

Pacifien wrote...

Jackal904 wrote...
But Jack doesn't lack combat experience, that's what I'm trying to say.

Anyway, we should move on to a different subject. This dead horse has been beaten enough.

I don't wanna.

I know I say Jack is undisciplined versus a trained soldier, but that's not to say she lacks combat experience. She's run with people who have organized some ambitious heists, like taking over a space station. That's not something you do by walking through the front airlock and start throwing biotic punches at random.

I think her biotics lack discipline, though. She packs a powerful punch, always trained to be make that punch stronger, deadlier. We don't know about her history, but I've made the assumption that she's never really come across a well-trained biotic who could teach her the subtleties of biotic combat. That's where I think Jack and Samara differ in their tactics. Jack's biotics are superiority through strength. Samara's biotics are superiority through finesse.

We don't know enough to make the assumption of whether or not her biotics lack discipline. There's nothing to support that other than her aggressive attitude, but her aggressive attitude doesn't mean she lacks control over her biotics. While I do agree with you that Samara has more control with her biotics, I don't think Jack lacks control of hers. She knows how to control her biotics, not as much as Samara, but she just chooses to be more aggressive with them because of her personality. Holding a large stable biotic barrier and applying biotic fields to individual bullets (warp ammo) takes focus and discipline. I think your confusing her attitude with her biotic abilities. She herself may be unstable, but her biotics are not.

And I only suggested moving to a different topic because others wanted to. I don't care either way.

[Andaius20]

Mondo47 wrote...

yorkj86 wrote...

Fireworks in Shepard's quarters! And not the ones everyone is used to!

Somehow I don't think even Shepard would get used to those fireworks that easily... as soon as Jack really lets herself get into, erm, the moment... well, need I say more?

I think inappropriate use of munitions would probably be easier to deal with

Looks like a Yoda quote is needed here! "Control you must learn control! yeaaahh! *falls off lukes feet*

[Errationatus]

Jackal904 wrote...

But Jack doesn't lack combat experience, that's what I'm trying to say.

I don't think I ever said she did.  But her combat experience is still nothing against Wrex's or Samara's, and is not comparable to Kaiden's.  Jack is a fighter, not a soldier, and there is a huge difference between the two.  She has all the subtlety and finesse of a car wreck.  Mature her combat abilities, give her the discipline of a professional and Jack would be virtually unstoppable. 

S'all I've bin say'n.

[Jackal904]

JakeMacDon wrote...

Jackal904 wrote...

But Jack doesn't lack combat experience, that's what I'm trying to say.

I don't think I ever said she did.  But her combat experience is still nothing against Wrex's or Samara's, and is not comparable to Kaiden's.  Jack is a fighter, not a soldier, and there is a huge difference between the two.  She has all the subtlety and finesse of a car wreck.  Mature her combat abilities, give her the discipline of a professional and Jack would be virtually unstoppable. 

S'all I've bin say'n.

I agree that Wrex and Samara have more combat experience than Jack, but Kaiden? I don't think so. Jack has probably been involved in a lot more combat than Kaiden, even though Kaiden is older. And c'mon, no offense to Kaiden but, it's Kaiden... He can't even handle a few Geth by himself (Virmire), while Jack rips through Purgatory likes it's nothing.

And experience isn't everything.

[aamy]

I don't think we're giving Jack enough credit for being a tactician. Sure she's probably inclined to barge in with brute tactics, but when motivated she's proved that she can pull off some technically difficult challenges (such as taking down that Space Station). So she's not all run and gun and probably uses her head more than we think. However, when pitting an engineered fighter such as Jack against a natural perfectionist such as Samara, I would put my money on the Asari. Just because Samara is surprisingly brutal as well, and wouldn't waste time trying to "finesse" Jack. But against anyone else, including the likes of Wrex or Kaidan I personally think Jack would have no trouble

[Jackal904]

aamy wrote...

I don't think we're giving Jack enough credit for being a tactician. Sure she's probably inclined to barge in with brute tactics, but when motivated she's proved that she can pull off some technically difficult challenges (such as taking down that Space Station). So she's not all run and gun and probably uses her head more than we think. However, when pitting an engineered fighter such as Jack against a natural perfectionist such as Samara, I would put my money on the Asari. Just because Samara is surprisingly brutal as well, and wouldn't waste time trying to "finesse" Jack. But against anyone else, including the likes of Wrex or Kaidan I personally think Jack would have no trouble

Yay someone agrees with me . But yes, I think people are underestimating Jack's combat intelligence.

[Mondo47]

Andaius20 wrote...

Mondo47 wrote...

yorkj86 wrote...

Fireworks in Shepard's quarters! And not the ones everyone is used to!

Somehow I don't think even Shepard would get used to those fireworks that easily... as soon as Jack really lets herself get into, erm, the moment... well, need I say more?

I think inappropriate use of munitions would probably be easier to deal with

Looks like a Yoda quote is needed here! "Control you must learn control! yeaaahh! *falls off lukes feet*

Shep: Oh, there is something else Kelly... I need some more fish.

Kelly: Again? Commander, with all due respect, can we afford to keep detouring to Illium to buy you more fish? I mean, what are you doing? Eating them? That's the third time this week!

Shep: Not quiiite...

[Pacifien]

Jackal904 wrote...
I agree that Wrex and Samara have more combat experience than Jack, but Kaiden? I don't think so. Jack has probably been involved in a lot more combat than Kaiden, even though Kaiden is older. And c'mon, no offense to Kaiden but, it's Kaiden... He can't even handle a few Geth by himself (Virmire), while Jack rips through Purgatory likes it's nothing.

I'm sure if the developers had wanted to put Jack in a Virmire decision between her and Miranda, Jack will also lack the ability to handle a few Geth by herself.

Everything we see in the game is both limited by gameplay mechanics and exaggerrated for cinematic reasons. Jenkins dies from the bombardment of a geth drone. Kolyat takes down a krogan with a couple shots of a pistol. Jack destroys three YMIR mechs in quick succession. Thane manages to take out four individuals in less than 15 seconds. Garrus only remembers what armor-piercing bullets are after he's dealt with Sidonis.

I take what I see in the game, the stories the characters themselves tell me, their various roles, and then all I can do is make inferences of what the writers' intents were for each character. Kaidan can snap a Turian's neck with a biotic kick. He can sabotage and overload a mech. Jack can unleash an extremely powerful biotic push. Kaidan was trained at the harsh BAaT and then the Alliance military. Jack was trained in the even more brutal Teltin and then with whomever she hung out with since then.

Have I ever said that Jack couldn't take Kaidan on? No. But I don't think Kaidan couldn't take Jack on either. Does Jack trump Thane? Kasumi? Ashley? It honestly depends. If you can think Shepard didn't recruit any fools, that applies not only to Jack but to every other squadmate. Each one has learned to use their abilities to their greatest advantage. All it takes is controlling the battlefield and a biotic can take down a YMIR mech while a sniper can take out an asari commando.

Actually, there are a couple squadmates whose strengths I think are not in direct combat and more toward infiltration and the like. I'd put my money on Jack in a straight up fight.

[Errationatus]

Jackal904 wrote...

I agree that Wrex and Samara have more combat experience than Jack, but Kaiden? I don't think so. Jack has probably been involved in a lot more combat than Kaiden, even though Kaiden is older.

Yeah...  I'll give you that one.  Kaiden is pretty much useless in a fight.  Was trying to be charitable to the guy.

And c'mon, no offense to Kaiden but, it's Kaiden... He can't even handle a few Geth by himself (Virmire), while Jack rips through Purgatory likes it's nothing.

And experience isn't everything.

Really?  Personally, I'll fly with the pilot who has 5000 hours over the guy that has 300.  And the guy who's been piloting that ferry for 25 years instead of the guy who just started a year ago.  The bodyguard that's been at it for a decade and not the one fresh outta training.   The detective with decades of cases under his belt over the rookie with maybe a couple, the commando over the guy who runs the motorpool and the IT pro over the casual gamer when I need my rig fixed.  Mike Holmes over the guy who once built a gazebo in his backyard when I need a reno.

That's just me though. 

Granted, aptitude does count - and natural gifts, and sheer raw bloody power.   If I had to choose, say, between Jack and Kaiden?  Pfft - easy.   Don't get me wrong - I'm not devaluing Jack's fighting experience, but pirates and cultists don't exactly provide the finest in combat training.  Judging by how often Jack charges out and gets blasted, I'd say she needs just a tad more.  That girl loves me medi-gel.  The girl is very good, but she needs to calm down and focus.

Trashing Purgatory was fine, but if we're going by game mechanics and The Cutscene Is A Lie, then Jack either works fukloads better after being supercooled and so-so after, or something's really wrong with how powers work in this game.  I would never be one to take her lightly - quickest way to suicide - but in my experience, it was never the hothead who swung wildly and charged in heedlessly who worried me, it was the calm, quiet one who stood there and assessed.  If Jack charges and blasts away and misses, (we mustn't forget those pesky cooldowns - the more powerful the expenditure, the longer the recovery) the veteran is going to take her out.  Period.

If I'm on a mission and Jack roars in and blows my initial opposition to hell, great.  If she gets shot and killed two minutes later because she was too busy hammering at doors (and has no shields, which she has none of) and missed the sniper, she is rendered quickly useless to me for the rest of the mission, and I'm stuck dealing with the rest of the base on my own.  

If the mission requires a big fist, then yeah, hell yeah, go get 'em, girl!

Personally, I'd rather experience and professionalism over raw power and blind agression anyday.

Modifié par JakeMacDon, 05 juillet 2010 - 10:59 .

[Andaius20]

Jack out of cutscene isn't very good ingame with any difficulty over normal for the most part. If any protections are on enemies her abilities go to about nil. She doesn't have any abilities that strip protections either If memory serves me.



Take her on the recover Cargo boxes and she how she stands up to the 3 YMIR's The only way she could have done the escape scene is if all three of those YMIR's had a sliver of health only left.



But thats the power of the cutscenes everyone kicks butt in those. Also tropes explains her abilities. nicely I think.

[Jackal904]

JakeMacDon wrote...

And c'mon, no offense to Kaiden but, it's Kaiden... He can't even handle a few Geth by himself (Virmire), while Jack rips through Purgatory likes it's nothing.

And experience isn't everything.

Really?  Personally, I'll fly with the pilot who has 5000 hours over the guy that has 300.  And the guy who's been piloting that ferry for 25 years instead of the guy who just started a year ago.  The bodyguard that's been at it for a decade and not the one fresh outta training.   The detective with decades of cases under his belt over the rookie with maybe a couple, the commando over the guy who runs the motorpool and the IT pro over the casual gamer when I need my rig fixed.  Mike Holmes over the guy who once built a gazebo in his backyard when I need a reno.

I'm not saying experience doesn't count, just that there are other factors that would determine who is the better fighter. Such as having more biotic power than any human in the galaxy .

And I understood your point after one analogy .

Judging by how often Jack charges out and gets blasted, I'd say she needs just a tad more.

Well that's just because of the moronic AI. All squadmates have that issue. I've had Garrus rush a bunch of geth on Haestrom with a sniper rifle, resulting in him quickly getting torn apart.

Personally, I'd rather experience and professionalism over raw power and blind agression anyday.

But what I'm saying is that she isn't blindly aggressive. She's aggressive for sure, but I don't think she's blindly aggressive.

Andaius20 wrote...

Jack out of cutscene isn't very good ingame with any difficulty over normal for the most part. If any protections are on enemies her abilities go to about nil.

I actually find Jack useful on any difficulty, solely because I find lift very useful, and she can use lift very often. My soldier has disruptor and tungsten ammo, so I quickly strip them of their defenses and have Jack instantly render them useless with lift. It's an underestimated technique, and it's saved my ass a bunch of times. I would use both Jack and Samara all the time if I just cared about kicking ass as quickly as possible, because they can both use lift equally as often. But I prefer to bring either Garrus or Grunt along with Jack, just because I like Garrus and Grunt .

I don't find squadmates' incinerate, warp, and overlord all that useful. I don't understand why everyone thinks it's best to bring squadmates with those abilities. Especially on hardcore and insanity, I find them very underwhelming.

Take her on the recover Cargo boxes and she how she stands up to the 3 YMIR's The only way she could have done the escape scene is if all three of those YMIR's had a sliver of health only left.

But thats the power of the cutscenes everyone kicks butt in those. Also tropes explains her abilities. nicely I think.

Unfortunately that is true . We've mentioned this before, but I really hope they do something in ME3 to make our squadmates' real-time combat remotely reflect their cutscene powers. Something as simple as an extremely powerful attack with a really long cooldown would be nice.

Modifié par Jackal904, 06 juillet 2010 - 12:00 .

[Errationatus]

Jackal904 wrote...

I'm not saying experience doesn't count, just that there are other factors that would determine who is the better fighter. Such as having more biotic power than any human in the galaxy .

Sure.  More than any other human.

And I understood your point after one analogy .

I know.  I just like analogies. 

Well that's just because of the moronic AI. All squadmates have that issue. I've had Garrus rush a bunch of geth on Haestrom with a sniper rifle, resulting in him quickly getting torn apart.

Oy.

But what I'm saying is that she isn't blindly aggressive. She's aggressive for sure, but I don't think she's blindly aggressive.

Agreed.  She definitely has anger issues, however, and it's that anger that can getcha killed.  Jack, however, is a very intelligent woman, (as well as a young one) and she'll learn.  I would do everything in my power to be one of her absolute best buddies the day she combines that might with calculating precision. 

Unfortunately that is true . We've mentioned this before, but I really hope they do something in ME3 to make our squadmates' real-time combat remotely reflect their cutscene powers. Something as simple as an extremely powerful attack with a really long cooldown would be nice.

This.  I don't care if that "4 Mechs In 4 Seconds" punch takes a full minute to recharge - I want it.

OopS!  Sorry, Pacifien! 

Modifié par JakeMacDon, 06 juillet 2010 - 12:28 .

[Pacifien]

JakeMacDon wrote...
This.  I don't care if that "4 Mechs In 4 Seconds" punch takes a full minute to recharge - I want it.

OopS!  Sorry, Pacifien! 

I'm just... going to add that power next to Reave which I hold in such high esteem...

[Jackal904]

JakeMacDon wrote...

Jackal904 wrote...

I'm not saying experience doesn't count, just that there are other factors that would determine who is the better fighter. Such as having more biotic power than any human in the galaxy .

Sure.  More than any other human.

Yeah and as far as I know, biotic power amongst races is asari > humans >>> krogan > everything else. Which is partially why I think Samara (and Shepard of course) is the only one that can give Jack a run for her money.

Modifié par Jackal904, 06 juillet 2010 - 01:17 .