20813 réponses à ce sujet

[Collider]

yorkj86 wrote...

Collider wrote...

JohnnyDollar wrote...
That's Jack's personality and how she chooses to live her life, and deal with other people. She comes across as a loner. She never really gives the indication that she is interested in a friendship with anyone. If you think about it, that fits perfectly into her back story.

I think there's your answer york. I do wish there was friendship with Jack, but I agree that it may not really fit her.

Answer, or...suspiciously convenient explanation? 

Could be either. What's your perspective on this topic?

[Collider]

It sounds about right, but without the ability to relate to Jack beyond a romance, won't her character development in ME3 seem a little shallow? As JD said, outside of romance scenes, Jack can't be shown to be at all effected by her relationship with Shepard.

I am kind of worried about this, actually. Since the difference between Jack and non-romanced Jack is pretty huge, it's hard to imagine what they're going to do. With Jack, the majority of her character development is tied to her romance. Other romances developed the character in some way or another, but nothing to the magnitude of Jack.



I'm not suggesting that Jack is "fixed' after the romance. But if you don't romance her, there's really little indication that she's going to "change."

[Collider]

No. But most of Jack's character development is currently tied to her romance. There's some development about Aresh and her thanking Shepard, but that's basically it. I imagine, though, that the effects from Aresh/her loyalty mission may come into play in ME3.

[royceclemens]

I'm not all that worried about Jack's development in ME3, to be quite honest. Just look at Tali, who got absolutely no development in ME1 (even less than a non-romanced Jack in ME2). She was literally nothing more than a walking backstory dispenser/Quarian encyclopedia.



Come ME2 and they developed her a LOT, painting her to be a complex patriot in a hostile political environment. This alone is why I'm so damn Zen about Jack's potential development. Because now that we have her backstory over with and her motivation (Teltin) resolved... What else would they talk about?



As for JohnnyDollar's question about how the accomplishment of the loyalty missions will effect ME3, I cannot say. I can only speak of how I'd go abot things were I writing or developing the game and if it were up for me, come recruiting time if you didn't handle their loyalty missions they could just tell you to go screw. They'd be unrecruitable.



Converting fro ME2's gonna be hard enough. They want to cut down on permutations? That's a good way to do it while still making sense and cutting costs.

[NICKjnp]

You know.. I go and play some ME2 and all of a sudden the thread gets real active. When I return... everyone has left.

[Collider]

Going to have disagree with you somewhat on Tali, Royce. From the top of my mind, I can already tell you that she developed. For one thing, she was uncomfortable and not used to the comparatively dead silence of the state-of-the-art Normandy compared to the rackety clammor that the Migrant Fleet had. In other words, she was not use to not living in places rife with poverty, teeming with the noisy bustle of crowded life, and barely holding together. It was foreign and alien. As you may recall, that is remedied with later conversations where she grows to like the formerly strange quiet and harmony that the Normandy has to offer.

I also saw a shift from "I'm on this mission for my pilgrimage" to "I'm on this mission because I have to. Saren has to be stopped."

In relation to this discussion, after several conversations with her, she considers you a friend, too.

However, you are right - she stopped being an encyclopedia in ME2. In light of that, yea, I shouldn't worry about Jack. They are capable of doing it.
-

Jack is among one of the few squad mates who's return seems the most variable. Character-wise. I couldn't see an unloyal, renegade "romanced" Jack returning. I think Jack makes a point, if you side with Miranda, that she's on the Collector mission and nothing else. After that, it's done. Of course, Bioware can invent something to wave away this.

Certainly, I would like Jack to return in ME3 for those who did not romance her. That's pretty much a given though (hopefully) and goes without saying. I am curious, in light of Royce's post, what they will do with Jack in ME3.

What do you envision? What do you hope for?

Modifié par Collider, 10 juillet 2010 - 07:48 .

[Collider]

I cannot really say what I hope for in terms of the bulk of ME3 for Jack, aside from a friendship option with her.



I really like the idea that Jack's "epilogue" non-romanced is something sympathetic and sweet like helping run an orphanage or helping downtrodden kids like she had been. Tattoo artist on the side? Maybe I'm being unrealistic. But considering her nature, having her life turned around and focused on something good would be great. I might even say that's what her character foreshadows. Either way, I hope she returns and her character is done justice.

[royceclemens]

You're right, Jack does seem the most variable which is one of the reasons I think she'll be back. It's plain as day that they spent a lot of time on her and I don't think they're just gonna ditch her because the math is too hard (of course, I thought what we did in DA:O was actually gonna matter and they weren't gonna reboot, so what the hell do I know?).



I've said before that the crux of any further development with Jack won't be the romance, but the decision whether or not to spare Aresh, thus the only time she ever showed mercy. I'd like that to be the impetus. And it's a point that even FemSheps can make, so I think that will bring about a lot of happy campers.

[Collider]

Dragon Age is different because I don't recall them ever claiming that you'll be able to import your Warden into other games, before Awakenings was announced. So there was never really a promise with Dragon Age, whereas Mass Effect has always been touted as a trilogy where your choices can be imported into ME2 and ME3.



Considering the epilogues in DA:O, it was surprising to begin with that we would even be able to import the Warden into Awakenings.



Agreed - far too much work put into Jack for them not have her return. There are a lot of naysayers looking at ME2 and it's suicide mission as proof that none of the squad mates will return, but I think that is unrealistic.



Also another note - ME2 is also seen as an indication that our choices will not matter, or will only matter to a rather insignificant degree. I will point out that saving the branching plot lines and the real consequences for the final game is both intelligent and likely the scenario (not to mention the fact that Bioware said this themselves). Leaving all of the hard consequences for the last chapter makes the logistics problems far more easy to deal with.

've said before that the crux of any further development with Jack won't be the romance, but the decision whether or not to spare Aresh, thus the only time she ever showed mercy. I'd like that to be the impetus. And it's a point that even FemSheps can make, so I think that will bring about a lot of happy campers.

I agree. Aresh should be the most important. I do wish that Aresh had affected Jack more in ME2 itself, but there's plenty of room for that to occur in ME3. Though I doubt most people would forsee something like that having such a consequence. I mean, if you don't spare Aresh, would we still see a positive change in Jack? Destroying the Teltin facility likely helped her, but I'm not sure if that was enough.

[Epantiras]

Jackal904 wrote...
Those are people who would riot if their favorite character doesn't turn out as expected in ME3. If Jack doesn't turn out how we hope in ME3, sure we'll be bummed, but we'll easily move on with life.

If Jack is not in ME3 I'll riot!

...

That was a joke.
Ha ha, fat chance.
(ok now I seriously need to use EDI/GLAdOS quotes in my posts)

yorkj86 wrote...
I can't figure out why Bioware would make
the dialogue options with Jack so restrictive, if one just wants to be
her friend.  Disc space limitations?  Time restraints?  Budget? 
It's like the opposite of the situation with Liara, in ME1 - in not
wanting to romance her, you become scared of even speaking with her,
lest you start the romance without even knowing about it.

Oh, please, don't make me think about ME1 resident stalker.

And speaking about a Jack/Shep friendship, remember that in one of her early conversations Jack says that "she doesn't want friends because friends need shorter knives to kill you" (or something like that). She also says something similar when talking to the vouls during Samara's recruiting mission.

On the one hand, a Jack/Shep friendship THAT early would be a bit out of character, but on the other hand it means that Jack trusts enough MaleShep to sleep with him but not enough to be just friends.
Plot hole?

[Collider]

I took that Jack understood "romantic" relationships because it's easier to see what people want: intimacy (emotionally or physically). She does not understand friendships because people not wanting "something" is alien to her. I was hoping that Shepard could teach Jack that not everyone wants something out of another person, but alas.

[NICKjnp]

@Epantiras
QUIET! Don't say that word. You might draw smudboy in here and we would never hear the end of his trolling.

Modifié par NICKjnp, 10 juillet 2010 - 08:31 .

[royceclemens]

@Collider



I know about DAII, but I expected a little more from it besides "You ARE human, you DO have a name whether you like it or not and this WILL be a fully voiced Gauntlet clone." But I digress. I think a lot of the conversation dialogue is going to sound neutral with a few switchouts to indicate what you did. Think Garrus and Dr. Saleon. It may sound bad when I just put it out there like that, but with the neutral dialogue she'll still, in essense be the same ol' foul-mouthed malcontent that we all know and love. And that's all I wanted, really.



@NICKjnp



Agreed. Plus whoever does so will be responsible for feeding him after midnight.

[Epantiras]

Collider wrote...

I took that Jack understood "romantic" relationships because it's easier to see what people want: intimacy (emotionally or physically). She does not understand friendships because people not wanting "something" is alien to her. I was hoping that Shepard could teach Jack that not everyone wants something out of another person, but alas.

That could be an explaination. Probably she thinks that people not wanting "something" have other hidden goals.



Which word?
Stalker!
Stalker!
Stalker!
Stalker!


I'm talking about S.T.A.L.K.E.R. - Shadow of Chernobyl ;-)

[NICKjnp]

Epantiras wrote...

Collider wrote...

I took that Jack understood "romantic" relationships because it's easier to see what people want: intimacy (emotionally or physically). She does not understand friendships because people not wanting "something" is alien to her. I was hoping that Shepard could teach Jack that not everyone wants something out of another person, but alas.

That could be an explaination. Probably she thinks that people not wanting "something" have other hidden goals.



Which word?
Stalker!
Stalker!
Stalker!
Stalker!


I'm talking about S.T.A.L.K.E.R. - Shadow of Chernobyl ;-)

Plothole.

[Collider]

That is probably the most likely scenario, Royce. Can't say I'll complain if that happens. She's a colorful personality, and a welcome one in Shepard's squad. She did a lot for that "specialist team of the most dangerous people" feel.



Though - on Garrus - I sincerely hope that our mentoring of him turns out more than a simple dialog change. Especially considering it's far more obvious that Shepard is affecting him (or should). ME3 is the last in the trilogy so I expect (dare I?) or at least hope that Garrus changes a bit more depending on how he was steered.



As for loyalty missions. Let's first talk about Jack. We already discussed the affect on her - IMO so far as character goes - it's hard to believe she'd stick around if you didn't do it. Other than that, Aresh isn't going to remake the facility if you don't destroy it. He's inept and clearly disturbed. So nothing will probably happen besides not getting to help Jack and the facility still standing (but being inoperated).



I think Mordin's loyalty mission is the most interesting one in terms of "what ifs." Maelon is clearly not as skilled as Mordin, but he apparently made some progress on the genophage cure. Given time and resource, it's possibly he could achieve it if you don't do Mordin's loyalty mission. That could have dire consequences, especially given the not-so-amiable nature of the Weyrloc Clan.



That's an in-lore stance though - realistically (in terms of game mechanics), it's possible that little will change if you don't do Mordin's loyalty mission other than not having the data on hand.



Legion's also an important one - if Legion is correct, then not taking down the Heretics means the virus the Heretics are preparing may turn all of the Geth to the Reaper cause. That isn't good. They may, again, sweep this under the rug due to mechanics and logistics, but not doing Legion's loyalty mission seems to have the most dire consequences.



Jacob - Not much to say. Bioware seemed pretty adamant on making Jacob an unchanging entity. Do or don't do his loyalty mission, Jacob will be the same Jacob. Most likely, his father and the rest of the crew will just end getting killed - ie. nothing changes.



Tali - Tali is exiled. Her home will certainly be the Normandy after that, although she won't be as close to Shepard that she would if you did do her loyalty mission. Rael's evidence destroyed because Alarei destroyed.



Miranda - Sister gets kidnapped. Miranda is not going to be happy. Her dad is though. Miranda may still think that Nikhet is trustworthy.



Samara - Morinth still on lose, Samara still chasing after her.



Thane - His son ends up killing his target. Not sure if he gets caught. Either way, Thane isn't going to make amends with his son (probably).



Grunt - Grunt's still restless and he doesn't have a clan.



Kasumi - Hock seemed pretty much stuck on unlocking the Graybox, so unless he gets a breakthrough, nothing will change. Also factor in the fact that it's DLC.



Zaeed - Vido still at large, workers still slaves. Zaeed still vengeful. DLC.

[NICKjnp]

royceclemens wrote...
@NICKjnp

Agreed. Plus whoever does so will be responsible for feeding him after midnight.

And throwing water on him.

[Epantiras]

NICKjnp wrote...

royceclemens wrote...
@NICKjnp

Agreed. Plus whoever does so will be responsible for feeding him after midnight.

And throwing water on him.

Is it a troll or a gremlin? ;-)

anyway, yes I believe that Mordin's and Legion's loyalty missions are those who will probably have the greatest influence in the ME3 plot. Tali's mission too, as I sense the quarian/geth war or peace will be an important part of the puzzle.

[Epantiras]

Oh, sorry for double post, but this is the BEST Jack video ever www.youtube.com/watch

Modifié par Epantiras, 10 juillet 2010 - 09:39 .