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Into the Bad Girl: Jack Fans


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#10801
NICKjnp

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Pacifien wrote...

JohnnyDollar wrote...
I just use the save editor, and replace Jack's pistol with the SMG.

Since I just figured out how to use that with my 360 (What's in this box? Oh, that looks like a transfer cable for my XBox... wait... I've had a transfer cable for my XBox all this time?!), I should have thought of doing that sooner. Or hell, Revenants for everyone. If I can get Spectre gear for my crew in ME1, then surely the Illusive Man can dish out the good stuff.


It is a bit overkill but a playthrough is fun at least once.  I gave Grunt the Revenant and unlocked his loyalty power at the start right when I acquired him.... he was unstoppable.  I just stood back as he destroyed everything.

#10802
Goat_Shepard

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Pacifien wrote...
She hasn't done a lot of Miranda's jumping onto crates, but it really does have all to do with the combat AI directing her to close in on the enemy to shotgun range. I learned a long time ago to get my squadmates off the shotgun and onto any other weapon. Only Grunt can take it from the get-go. Jacob improves with the barrier that he so loves to use. Tali has the benefit of the Combat Drone and Energy Drain, but I have to be particularly mindful of controlling when she uses either if I'm going to keep her on the shotgun. I've always been rather down on Jack because I didn't feel she had any ability to pair up with the shotgun that would help increase her ability to survive on Hardcore/Insanity.

Turns out, if my character and the other squadmate are incredibly good at stripping powers, Jack will last longer. As an Engineer, I get the power of Overload and Incinerate. I've had Jack along with Miranda where I then get the benefit of Overload and Warp. If I concentrate on stripping powers, then Jack is great. But I don't want to have to keep stripping powers for her, that's no fun.


This is why it's tempting to just play Soldier lol if you don't like stripping powers, don't play Engineer, since you can strip everything with bullets + Adrenalin. Problem is, only Shepard kicks ass. When I played Engineer for a whole 2 missions, my squad had to shine. Since you like that challenge, all I gotta say is "make it work". I'm quite tempted to play the "weak" class now :P

That's part of the problem I've been having as an Engineer because I've wanted to really use the Combat Drone to my advantage and get aggressive in the enemy's face, but I end up playing support for my squad in a way I didn't as a Sentinel or Adept -- two other classes that are often criticized as support that I played with a lot more aggression.


Again, once you've found your niche, it's hard to escape. Soldier/Infiltrator/Vanguard + Tali and Chiktikka/ED has brought so much success that I'm only concerned who my 3rd squaddie will be. Some roleplayer I am lol but I found out it doesn't matter how many Drones you have out, you only need one, and for me I REALLY need a Drone. I might pair that with Jack and try again since I failed and brought Grunt out to give more stability.

Pacifien wrote...
Somewhat. If I can write about it without somehow throwing in the phrase "save you with the power of my dick," then I'll know I'm trying to be reasonable in my critique. Right now, it'd probably just come across as undue rage.

Well you only get the Paramour achievement if you do the deed :D

So you just dislike people that are after easy targets? Forgive my questions, it's quite late, or I'm just naturally counterintuitive :pinched:

Pacifien wrote...

JohnnyDollar wrote...
I just use the save editor, and replace Jack's pistol with the SMG.

Since I just figured out how to use that with my 360 (What's in this box? Oh, that looks like a transfer cable for my XBox... wait... I've had a transfer cable for my XBox all this time?!), I should have thought of doing that sooner. Or hell, Revenants for everyone. If I can get Spectre gear for my crew in ME1, then surely the Illusive Man can dish out the good stuff.


Oh no, acknowledgement of character flaws I will not tolerate in any of my playthroughs.

Modifié par Goat_Shepard, 14 juillet 2010 - 05:35 .


#10803
Guest_yorkj86_*

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So...you don't think Jack was especially vulnerable, walking in to Shepard's quarters like that?

#10804
Collider

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I suppose first we would need to define vulnerable. I feel like some of us may be interpreting the word differently.

Modifié par Collider, 14 juillet 2010 - 05:37 .


#10805
Guest_JohnnyDollar_*

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She takes her barriers down a notch, and opens up a little.  If Shepard rejects her, she feels it.  If he embraces her, she feels it.  So, I suppose she has made herself emotionally vulnerable to a certain extent.  One has to do that to a certain degree.

Modifié par JohnnyDollar, 14 juillet 2010 - 05:48 .


#10806
Guest_yorkj86_*

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JohnnyDollar wrote...

She takes her barriers down a notch, and opens up a little.  If Shepard
rejects her, she feels it.  If he embraces her, she feels it.  So, I
suppose she has made herself emotionally vulnerable to a certain
extent.  One has to do that to certain degree. 


Adding: She lets Shepard see a part of herself that she doesn't let anyone see.

Modifié par yorkj86, 14 juillet 2010 - 05:49 .


#10807
Collider

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JohnnyDollar wrote...
She takes her barriers down a notch.

Based upon that definition, I would say that Jack is "vulnerable" in the scene. Tali also has her "barriers" down in a sense.

From wikitionary:
1. More or most likely to be exposed to the chance of being attacked or harmed, either physically or emotionally.


Since Jack's barriers are down, something like say Shepard rejecting her is going to affect her more. I believe that can be agreed with.

Modifié par Collider, 14 juillet 2010 - 05:49 .


#10808
Collider

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To contrast, I know that breaking up with Miranda, at least in the earlier stage of the relationship, results in Miranda kind of being "eh, okay. Mission's more important anyway." Whereas with the other two ladies, they are more affected by being broken up with/rejected.

Modifié par Collider, 14 juillet 2010 - 05:55 .


#10809
Goat_Shepard

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Soooooo, are we putting a negative connotation to "Jack is vulnerable during the love scene"?

#10810
Guest_JohnnyDollar_*

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It's to be expected also I think. At least one or both has to do that initially to a certain extent sooner or later, to further the relationship.

Goat_Shepard wrote...
Soooooo, are we putting a negative connotation to "Jack is vulnerable during the love scene"?

No.  I don't know if I would quite call it a love scene either.  Jack's scene is quite unique in a sense.

Modifié par JohnnyDollar, 14 juillet 2010 - 06:02 .


#10811
kraidy1117

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Collider wrote...

To contrast, I know that breaking up with Miranda, at least in the earlier stage of the relationship, results in Miranda kind of being "eh, okay. Mission's more important anyway." Whereas with the other two ladies, they are more affected by being broken up with/rejected.


Because Bioware wanted to spit on the fans of the miri  who loved her for her and felt her romance was great leading up to the scene, but things like that and the engine room ruin it.

Modifié par kraidy1117, 14 juillet 2010 - 05:59 .


#10812
Jackal904

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kraidy1117 wrote...

Collider wrote...

To contrast, I know that breaking up with Miranda, at least in the earlier stage of the relationship, results in Miranda kind of being "eh, okay. Mission's more important anyway." Whereas with the other two ladies, they are more affected by being broken up with/rejected.


Because Bioware wanted to spit on the fans of the miri  who loved her for her and felt her romance was great leading up to the scene, but things like that and the engine room ruin it.


Or possibly because it is in character for Miranda to respond that way. I'm not bashing her, it's just that is how most would expect Miranda to respond after hearing Shepard call off their relationship. Miranda is very professional (not counting her outfit) and she's strict about putting the mission first.

#10813
Goat_Shepard

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kraidy1117 wrote...

Collider wrote...

To contrast, I know that breaking up with Miranda, at least in the earlier stage of the relationship, results in Miranda kind of being "eh, okay. Mission's more important anyway." Whereas with the other two ladies, they are more affected by being broken up with/rejected.


Because Bioware wanted to spit on the fans of the miri  who loved her for her and felt her romance was great leading up to the scene, but things like that and the engine room ruin it.


Or they made a different character arch so that the game is interesting. Miranda's Queen C, so take from that what goes without the saying.
You're such a downer, kraidy :P

EDIT Jackal knows best.

JohnnyDollar wrote...

It's to be expected also I think. At least one or both has to do that initially to a certain extent sooner or later, to further the relationship.

Goat_Shepard wrote...
Soooooo, are we putting a negative connotation to "Jack is vulnerable during the love scene"?

No.  I don't know if I would quite call it a love scene either.  Jack's scene is quite unique in a sense


I'm just hung up on Pacifien's quote about people having "an eye toward vulnerability".

And I would not know about Jack's scene, I saw her hug + cry gif.

Forgive me.

Modifié par Goat_Shepard, 14 juillet 2010 - 06:10 .


#10814
kraidy1117

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Jackal904 wrote...

kraidy1117 wrote...

Collider wrote...

To contrast, I know that breaking up with Miranda, at least in the earlier stage of the relationship, results in Miranda kind of being "eh, okay. Mission's more important anyway." Whereas with the other two ladies, they are more affected by being broken up with/rejected.


Because Bioware wanted to spit on the fans of the miri  who loved her for her and felt her romance was great leading up to the scene, but things like that and the engine room ruin it.


Or possibly because it is in character for Miranda to respond that way. I'm not bashing her, it's just that is how most would expect Miranda to respond after hearing Shepard call off their relationship. Miranda is very professional (not counting her outfit) and she's strict about putting the mission first.


Hmm? Oh don't mind me, I am just those bitter Miri fans. Your right, but I don't want to admit it!!

#10815
Goat_Shepard

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kraidy1117 wrote...
Hmm? Oh don't mind me, I am just those bitter Miri fans. Your right, but I don't want to admit it!!


Some people like peanut butter on their hamburgers, that doesn't make them right or wrong.

Oh, and I'd say you were drunk, kraidy, but you're spelling is spot on.

EDIT I need a smiley face or two with this post :P:D

Modifié par Goat_Shepard, 14 juillet 2010 - 06:15 .


#10816
kraidy1117

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Goat_Shepard wrote...

kraidy1117 wrote...
Hmm? Oh don't mind me, I am just those bitter Miri fans. Your right, but I don't want to admit it!!


Some people like peanut butter on their hamburgers, that doesn't make them right or wrong.

Oh, and I'd say you were drunk, kraidy, but you're spelling is spot on.

EDIT I need a smiley face or two with this post :P:D


I need money for that, got to wait to get paid. I do agree tho. If you break up with Jack, Miri and Tali, it does fit there character. Miri is hurt a little bit but relises that the mission is important, for Jack get's mad, it makes sence and Tali is also hurt but tries to hide her emotion.

#10817
Collider

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I think Pacifien's just interpreting "vulnerable" differently than how we are defining it. It seems pretty much undeniable that Tali & especially Jack are an amount of "vulnerable" in their scenes in that they are more affected about what happens. Jack gets pretty upset if Shepard rejects her there. And I know that after Jack tells you about Murdock, and Shepard says "no," she also gets upset (the "**** off" line).

As for Miranda, as Kraidy said, part of her character is focusing on the mission she was assigned by Cerberus first and foremost. She has a very important role in the suicide mission so she cannot afford to get too upset if the relationship with Shepard doesn't work out.

Modifié par Collider, 14 juillet 2010 - 06:21 .


#10818
kraidy1117

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Collider wrote...

I think Pacifien's just interpreting "vulnerable" differently than how we are defining it. It seems pretty much undeniable that Tali & especially Jack are an amount of "vulnerable" in their scenes in that they are more affected about what happens. Jack gets pretty upset if Shepard rejects her there. And I know that after Jack tells you about Murdock, and Shepard says "no," she also gets upset (the "**** off" line).

As for Miranda, as Kraidy said, part of her character is focusing on the mission she was assigned by Cerberus first and foremost. She has a very important role in the suicide mission so she cannot afford to get too upset if the relationship with Shepard doesn't work out.


She is still upset, you can tell by her voice but she understands.

#10819
Collider

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Agreed.

#10820
Goat_Shepard

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Collider wrote...

I think Pacifien's just interpreting "vulnerable" differently than how we are defining it. It seems pretty much undeniable that Tali & especially Jack are an amount of "vulnerable" in their scenes in that they are more affected about what happens. Jack gets pretty upset if Shepard rejects her there. And I know that after Jack tells you about Murdock, and Shepard says "no," she also gets upset (the "**** off" line).


I thought he was talking about people that like vulnerable LI. GD it Pacifien where are you?

Anyways, I can't help if I get attached to people with problems, I have my own problems that I can't resolve and helping people gives me a glimmer of hope for myself and the rest of the world.

#10821
Mondo47

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Ah... "vulnerability". We have dismissed that claim.

Ok, I kid, but here's my two cents - I think they all have it to a degree. Yep, even Jacob (though granted his is about the lowest due to the what-has-to-be-intentional jokey nature of his scene). Not wanting to stray from where this discussion started, Garrus just has no clue about human women (his vulnerability is his desire not to make a hash of it - it's obviously a little more than stress relief to him because it's his role model asking him to bed), Thane has his dead wife looking over his shoulder constantly and is suddenly feeling like there isn't enough time left to do what needs to be done in his life, and Jacob... well, it takes a little poking and prodding in the dialogue wheel, but he does have genuine feelings that he puts on the line (and you can shove him out the door with a very cynical "Goodnight Jacob"... Shep's a b*tch).

But with the girls (and I'm not going to even try with Kelly as I'm still on the prescription)... ;)

Well, I don't think anyone can argue Jack comes to Shepard in a vulnerable position. She opens herself to possible rejection, and is able to acknowledge that her attitude to Shep has been less than warm and rosy at times. The fact that she actually thinks of another person's feelings in this manner says something. It's hard for her... think how many times her feelings have been toyed with, her head's been messed with - so much so it got to a point where when someone came along that really did care, she didn't even see it until he was dead. Jack goes to Shepard with a weight over her; she's risking being crushed yet again. I think some of those tears are probably relief; relief that she's not so damaged she can't be loved, and that thing hanging over her didn't fall on her again. Jack definately is vulnerable, can't really be denied.

Tali... it's a different kind of risk for her. Sure, she's also putting her feelings on the line; she's obviously harboured a bit of a crush on Shepard since way back in Mass Effect. She's potentially seen Shep end up in a relationship with someone else, and she's accepted it because it's what Shep wants. She sits on the outside singng 'Waiting in Vain' to herself wondering if she'll ever get a turn. Sure, she has a large potential risk to her health, but I really don't think that is high on her priorities - she's been dying to be noticed long before her suit could come off. So Tali goes to Shep a bundle of nerves, but she goes there and tries to take control of the situation. She wants him; she enters the room and explains what she's done (yes, it's safe), takes that datapad off him (no, you look at me now), takes his hand and leads him to the bed (I don't think I need to draw you a schematic for this) and then - pounce. Sure, Tali is taking an emotional risk, her feelings are vulnerable, but she's unlikely to be utterly crushed by Shepard's rejection... she's probably half expecting it... I know I would be in her shoes.

Miranda, though, is a bit of a stealthy one. She slips in under the radar because of how her love scene plays out. In tone it almost plays out as hot, heavy and meaningless as Jack's renegade scene. But, remember this guys - some girls like things like that. Some of us like backseats, back alleys, phoneboxes and nighclub stalls. I've joked before about it being Miri deliberately pissing in her competition's territory (and even Kasumi comments on it), and hey, there might well be an element of that to it. Miranda is, after all, for all her genetic perfection, a little insecure. Nothing wrong with that, it makes her a bit more human if anything. I think Miranda's vulnerability plays out well before the romance scene, in her conversations about her father and her sister. It becomes clear that Miranda has feelings, insecurities and desires beyond climbing the Cerberus ladder. She shows Shepard she's a woman, which is for her a display of vulnerability.

Basically, everyone in the game throws their heart on the line one way or another. Some do it to such a degree that rejection would probably destroy them. Most it would certainly hurt. Almost all of them would get over it, but they'd all remember. Moral of the story is don't play with people's feelings, boys and girls. Because it hurts; even if (or especially if) you're the baddest biotic b*tch in the galaxy.

Kelly... well, all it'd do for her is force her to put her dancer's costume back in mothballs ;)

Modifié par Mondo47, 14 juillet 2010 - 01:33 .


#10822
Pacifien

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Goat_Shepard wrote...
I thought he was talking about people that like vulnerable LI. GD it Pacifien where are you?

Hey, I can't help it if you didn't respond to my post within five minutes and my ADD drew my attention elsewhere. :P

Collider is right that my comment on vulnerability was in a different place than how it was interpreted. Of course every romance has its vulnerability as someone takes the chance to drop their barriers to someone else and show a side of oneself that one would never dream of showing to others.

But my vulnerable comment was actually beyond the romance. I recently discussed the idea of putting a woman on a pedestal--to which I have been shocked that no one went the 40 Year Old Virgin route with that--but even that was used in an unusual manner by me to illustrate a point. I didn't mean about looking at a woman with this concept of perfection that the woman could never meet, but more about looking at a woman with this notion that she is a very particular personality that must be met in this ideal state. A woman who is only complete with the power of Shepard's di--I mean, a woman who is only complete with the healing powers of romance.

So consider Jack, a woman who has had one ****ty life up until the point she meets Shepard. Emotionally alone and cut off from the world. Her biggest issue is trust. And with a romance, she takes the ultimate step past this issue by laying all of herself bare to Shepard in the hopes he takes her fears seriously and accepts that this person before him can be afraid like any other.

But does that make Jack a vulnerable person, a broken individual that needs a romance to be a better person? She will always have a harsh personality, even up against Shepard. I've known people like Jack, in many ways I am Jack. The best relationship in the world doesn't solve the emotional issues that one has developed as a defense mechanism against the world. One wrong phrase or action on Shepard's part, and Jack is on the rampage. Only the strongest of individuals (for which we are constantly told Shepard is) can work past that and keep the relationship going.

So look beyond the relationship and to who Jack is to the rest of the galaxy. Without a romance, she becomes a person who is intent to walk away from the ghost of Teltin. She learns to work with other people in a way that can only happen with some level of trust. She grows as a person simply by being a member of Normandy's crew.

I don't view Jack as a vulnerable person. She won't let herself be. She will never view herself as someone who can't handle what the galaxy throws at her. She is the biggest, baddest biotic **** and, in her own mind, she always will be. But she's only human, and that comes with all the flaws of any other human. To consider her vulnerable would mean considering every other human just as vulnerable.

So that's about Jack specifically. I have such issues with Tali as well, but they're from a different place and equally long to describe.

Modifié par Pacifien, 14 juillet 2010 - 02:55 .


#10823
Collider

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I don't think anyone is saying that Jack or Tali are vulnerable. They are both strong women. They just let their barriers down to some degre, as others have said, in their romances (or romance scenes). They are both going to live on with their lives no matter what happens, but they are going to be more affected about what happens because their armor is not up.

Jack does, for example, get upset if you reject her in the romance scene. If you reject her when she asks if you have feelings for her (meaning before the romance starts), she just agrees about not having a romance and is just "whatever, I don't care" about it. That's the distiction.

Modifié par Collider, 14 juillet 2010 - 03:01 .


#10824
Pacifien

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I'm not entirely sure if they're given credit for being strong women in their own right by some people.

#10825
Collider

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Pacifien wrote...
I'm not entirely sure if they're given credit for being strong women in their own right by some people.

As is often the case, most people do not really understand the characters. There's a certain arrogance involved in saying that, but I think it's true. People tend to look at the surface, misinterpret or exaggerate it, and not dig deeper.