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[Goat_Shepard]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

yorkj86 wrote...

JohnnyDollar wrote...
I was talking about the appraisal of the "Tali fan", and how that breaks down with Jack in the equation.  I imagine that you avoided that intentionally however, which is fine.

No, I don't understand what it is that you're asking.

As stated by several members, quite a lot of the Tali fans find the Jack character very appealing, and she would be their preferred LI, if indeed Tali was not a LI in the game.

If the appraisal of the Tali fans is that Tali is a "virginal alien nerd", and therefore the fans that find her appealing are "young virginal human nerds", how does this explain that a lot of those Tali fans find Jack appealing also?

The presumption is that she has a crush on Shepard, and is an innocent virgin throwing herself at Shepard, and that virgin nerds find this appealing. 

Jack is just the opposite, yet they find her quite appealing as well.  The appraisal seems to be contradictory, or this at least takes credence from it.

I don't know why so many Tali fans like Jack. We've discussed it a few times on The Thread, and the only commonality is that they both hate Cerberus, which isn't convincing. I do know that the ones that love Jack are a bit older/more mature, and there are still plenty of young ones with awesome reasons for not liking her like "too many tattoos" and "just a b!tch" (in fact, I haven't read one legit reason, no matter the age).

My theory is that Tali and Jack are simply both emotionally engaging characters, that appear to "need" someone, and everyone wants to feel needed. That makes them sound weak, which they're not, so what I'm trying to say is that the romances aren't casual (renegade pounce not included), they're serious. You can speculate that true love is there. One person simply said "they're the only good romances" but I won't vouch for that, even though these two gals are the only ones I'm crazy about.

@Jake
I'll probably check that out. I got you on my list, too, Pacifien, even though I'm so out of touch I haven't even played Firewalker yet.

@Johnny
You forgot to switch the "thes" to "zees" and "this" to "zis" and you needed to add "rudimentary" in that paragraph somewhere, now you're ready to be Freud

@Nick
lol @ Monty Python fish dance. You know as well as I that Johnny pulls out a 3 foot sturgeon and hits you in the face with it after that, right?

Hmm..what am I missing...ahh yes, my manditory Dem Lips screenie for Sundown;

[Jackal904]

Goat_Shepard wrote...

I don't know why so many Tali fans like Jack. We've discussed it a few times on The Thread, and the only commonality is that they both hate Cerberus,

Honestly, this is why I think Tali fans like Jack. Also, Tali fans seem to dislike Miranda, partially because she's Cerberus, and Jack totally hates Miranda, so Tali fans probably like that about Jack. I'm sure most Tali fans who do like Jack would give other reasons why they like Jack, but if it weren't for Jack's hatred of all things Cerberus, I doubt as many Tali fans would like Jack. But then again who knows. I tend to be a bit suppositional.

[NICKjnp]

adriano_c wrote...

I like all the characters to varying degrees. Except Thane. I hate that guy.

-edit. Oh, and Morinth is extremely underrated! The team needs that touch of "evil."

You know what else is great... using dominate on a collector right before it turns into harbinger.  Then you get Harbinger attacking the other collectors for you. 

And if Jacob is in your party you get this song... link 

Modifié par NICKjnp, 27 juillet 2010 - 12:21 .

[adriano_c]

Interesting, never tried that, actually.

[Pacifien]

NICKjnp wrote...
You know what else is great... using dominate on a collector right before it turns into harbinger.  Then you get Harbinger attacking the other collectors for you. 

Since determining which one turns into Harbinger is somewhat predictable, I used this technique quite often during my suicide run tests. It was so sweet.

[Goat_Shepard]

JohnnyDollar wrote...
Freudian analysis:

(in an austrian accent)

Your fanatical and obssessive hunger for zee Tali character, represents an innate nerdness.  Though you're indeed an egghead, zee true passion zat you display for ziss character, reveals a hidden attraction to your same gender.  Tali is young and innocent, zarefore you're projecting a fantasy zat is, in reality, an intense desire to romance zee Jacob character.  Because of ziss, I must classify you as a heavy riisk to society.

Fixed. And wow, time to do some soul-searching. Freud was never proven wrong, right?

Jackal904 wrote...
Honestly, this is why I think Tali fans like Jack. Also, Tali fans seem to dislike Miranda, partially because she's Cerberus, and Jack totally hates Miranda, so Tali fans probably like that about Jack. I'm sure most Tali fans who do like Jack would give other reasons why they like Jack, but if it weren't for Jack's hatred of all things Cerberus, I doubt as many Tali fans would like Jack. But then again who knows. I tend to be a bit suppositional.

I used to believe that, and it may be true for a more casual fan, but I learned that a lot of the regulars truly love Jack, to the point of writing long synopsis' of why they do, with little mention of Cerberus. Same goes for Miranda, the hate I see has very little to do with Cerberus other than her "cheerleading" personality trait. These characters all have colorful enough personalities that a simple association can't conjur up that kind of hate from someone who takes the game seriously.

Sundown Native wrote...
^^^

...Really? Was that necessary?

You hear that, precious? We're going to be friends. You, me, and every embarrassing little fetish :innocent:

Modifié par Goat_Shepard, 27 juillet 2010 - 12:29 .

[Mondo47]

Well, this "I like Tali, but I like Jack too" debate has caught my eye while I'm trying to deal with all manner of crap here...

Ok, my honest opinion (Johnny's little joke earlier withstanding) - I think Goat has a point by saying both characters are emotionally engaging. I really don't think that the "they both hate Cerberus" argument holds water, as, well, seriously, they're fictional characters hating on a fictional seperatist/quasi-terrorist/extremist group. I don't think anyone could be that into the story that they'd like a character for that reason alone. I'm more inclined to think that it could be that both characters are somewhat starved of real affection (Tali by her isolated existance inside her suit, Jack by circumstance), both characters are "outsiders" in appearance (Tali is rendered alien by her suit, Jack has a skin pattern of tattoos and scars seperating her from the norm), and both characters have a genuine romance (these two characters become really close to Shepard - there's nothing casual or friends-with-benefits about their relationships with Shepard... you get a palpable sense of attachment).

By saying I expected Tali to be very popular with the younger male demographic isn't meant as a derisory comment, I think Tali appeals to a younger romantic "ideal" - let's face facts here, as we grow older we experience more of intimate relationships in reality, their ups and downs, and these tend to shape our concepts of how a hypothetical romance should play out. Tali represents an ideal of a relationship without emotional friction; Tali and Shepard fit. When you look at romantic concepts (movies, tv shows, novels, etc.) pitched at that age group romances may have ups and downs, but they are rarely the storm-swept, tragic ideal of an older age group that has potentially been exposed to a lot more of the sadder sides of human relationships (breakups, affairs, divorces, or even widowing). The young-person's romance has a happy-ever-after quality, whereas the older person's romance will often settle with a happy-for-now outcome; an acceptance of the finite nature of relationships and that bittersweetness of it all. So, by saying I fully expected Tali to have a large younger-male fanbase, I'm saying she simply appeals to a more youthful, idealistic romantic concept; a desire to find a happy-ever-after, and I think that is seriously reflected in the fans, too. No bad thing - who doesn't want a happy-ever-after, after all?

Jack, by my reasoning, I expected to have a much larger older fanbase; perhaps stemming from an appreciation of both the difficulty in romancing the character of Jack, and of a complete understanding of the darker aspects of her backstory. It is very easy to read Jack simply as hostile, even infantile in her tantrum-like displays of aggression. An older audience member is more likely (once again potentially through real-life experiences) to see the behaviour as natural for a victim of abuse than a younger one (though by no means is it only that way - younger people aren't blind or stupid).

Also, I expected Jack to resonate with female gamers much more strongly than male. In video games in general, girl-gamers are starved of powerful female characters; many of those proposed as strong, independant and determined to carve their own destiny are usually designed to male ideals. Jack, with her wiry, boyish frame, plethora of tattoos, and masculine styling, is not a typical male ideal. Sure, some guys will go for that look, but when you put her next to Miranda, who do you think the majority of male gamers will see as visually appealing? And the same thing happens with Tali - she looks alien in comparison to a typical mass-media ideal of female beauty... she lacks a face, for starters!

The thing is, you mix these two 'aliens' with Shepard, and what you end up with is a subplot where a man shows these two outsiders that despite unconventional looks (Tali can't imagine anyone could look past her mask other than another quarian, while Jack has constructed an exterior facade to bolster her self-perservation tactic of pushing others away) or an attitude that screams toxicity on the surface, Shepard can see the woman inside and love them - those barriers don't really exist to him. They both have true, wholehearted romances... Tali gets her handsome prince, and Jack gets someone that will keep her heart safe.

That's just my gut reactions, and I'm sure they'll not apply to everyone. But I'm not trying to point an immaturity finger, no siree. I'm just trying to discover which characters said the most to which age brackets and genders, because that'll say a lot more than the average popularity-contest polls in the bigger scheme of things. Besides, as all you Jackolytes know, my feelings towards Jack are more maternal than anything else... and I do harbour a warped desire for a lesbian Tali - so you can't really say I hold too much bias there

Modifié par Mondo47, 27 juillet 2010 - 01:19 .

[axl99]

Tali always struck me as young but mature, very well-adjusted, especially in the second game. Jack was the self-assured adult who recalled what it was like being a little girl again and grew through her pain.

Modifié par axl99, 27 juillet 2010 - 01:03 .

[adriano_c]

I think "self-assured" is the last term I'd use to describe the character, frankly.

[axl99]

I dunno about you guys, but I'm pretty sure everything we see and know about Jack - walls and all - is all her. They're all facets of her, and I wouldn't deny that for anything. Jack's been blunt with us since day one. Her ink and her defensive nature originated from her real life experiences. I can't see that as false.

Modifié par axl99, 27 juillet 2010 - 01:12 .

[Collider]

Having browsed the Tali thread, Cerberus is not the reason why they love Jack.



I'm going to go with Mondo in that part of the appeal of these two romances is that Shepard is looking past some kind of wall - and seeing the character for who they are. It's very much idealistic. It is probably perceived that there is a romanticism involved in Shepard being willing to overlook the barriers and overcome the obstacles. The problems involved in the two romances are very real.



With Miranda, you are basically force fed her sex appeal. No way around that. Literally, at one point you are talking to Miranda's ass. There's no substantial problem to overcome in her romance - she's human & genetically perfect. Not traumatized. Miranda is just detached emotionally.



In her romance, Shepard can basically say that he's only trying to get Miranda in bed. And the romance scene is literally just sex - no meaningful dialog. I'm not going to invalidate the Miranda romance outright, but I think their attempt of emphasizing Miranda's appearance is obvious.



I'll also add that Jack and Tali and their romances are unorthodox. That is going to appeal to some people - the fact that they differ from the standard Bioware trend of female love interest or the standard representation of female protagonists/characters in video games.



Just my two cents.

[Errationatus]

Sundown Native wrote...

I read it. And just because, I'm headed back to read it again.

Too much time on my hands.

Thanks, Sundown.  Appreciate the time you take.  Feel free to trash/critique.  As I said, always appreciate the feedback.

Oh, and if I hadn't mentioned it before, I like the stuff you've been doing as well, particularly the last one.

[Errationatus]

Well, all of the characters are certainly archtypes - sheesh, think Breakfast Club in Space. Tali has universal appeal, she`s everybody`s childhood sweetheart. Jack is that dangerous chick who intrigues you but scares the **** outta you, but is actually worth the chase, have you the patience. Seems pretty straightforward to me.

[Collider]

You can reduce just about any character into an archetype or trope if one desires to. Everything has been done before.



The reason these characters are great is because they have nuances and layers to them and are not bound to whatever stereotype they are associated with.

[Mondo47]

JakeMacDon wrote...

Well, all of the characters are certainly archtypes - sheesh, think Breakfast Club in Space. Tali has universal appeal, she`s everybody`s childhood sweetheart. Jack is that dangerous chick who intrigues you but scares the **** outta you, but is actually worth the chase, have you the patience. Seems pretty straightforward to me.

Are you saying Jack's Bender?

Good analogy, actually!

[axl99]

She's self assured in the idea that her relationships won't end well.



Shepard's the person who changes that.

[Azint]

I see that this topic is up and about again.

I'll explain why I like Jack, and I declare that because I speak for myself and not the gestalt Tali thread.

We've all seen this character before, the self-imposing social outcast who pushes people away with both attitude and appearance because she hides a trembling spirit. Granted, Jack takes this character archetype much further than in other examples with her childhood of torture and abuse following with betrayal and exploitation. Jack's romance revolves around reaching out to her and helping her with her own anxieties, similar to Tali's romance, Shepard is essentially there for her when she needs it and Jack comes to cope with herself and begins to accept a newfound relationship. This sort of romance has been done endlessly and in this context, too, but that makes this one special is that as a game- as the player, you get the well-placed sense of immersion that you really are helping this character out.

Jack has been through a lot, and I feel for her. I find that her history and attitude intimidate many players and they being to hate her because they can't compare to Jack at all. Teenage angst is nothing to a life of attempted subjugation and because of that, people avoid her. Jack presents the "I've had it worse than you" personna better than any other character, she walls people off because she does not want to deal with others. I've read it, people who hate her do it because they flat out refuse to deal with her, and they find it a massive contrast compared to the much more affable Miranda or Tali. I don't want to put down any other fanbase, but I have read and heard from many Miranda fans that they dislike this tattooed, shaved, pettanko girl chewing out the more buxom, idealized woman- Miranda. They find it outrageous and hate Jack just because she does not fit into any sort of social standard they like. It's pathetic.

The most commonly listed reasons Jack is disliked is that she has a bad attitude, has a foul mouth, odd dress sense, inked, and because she has a shaved head. Three of these reasons are entirely superficial, but they are among the strongest sources of alienation.

I myself have never cared for social standards, evidently by my own appearace, so I can actually relate to her on some degrees. Because of my own sense of kinship, I found it easier to listen and try to understand Jack. Everyone has lived through struggles, we all deserve closure and compassion, which is what I wish to grant Jack about as much as any other character. Jack is not a fully-refined character, she is still in the middle of her own character developement. Jack can be treated nicely and she will grow to accept and respect Shepard, or Shepard can use her flesh and prove her views on people. Shepard can also love her, show her that there is still more to love and appreciate.

The "bad girl" is bad for a reason, part of what nakes her special is to deconstruct this. I find her to be the most complex character of the series so far, and I do look forward to seeing how she changes over the course of the story depending on how we treated her.

[adriano_c]

So much weird slang in this thread.



Someone care to enlighten me as to what the hell this latest one is about?

[axl99]

On first glance, Jack's a size B. Can't say that's flat-chested for sure though.