20813 réponses à ce sujet

[Pacifien]

yorkj86 wrote...

Pacifien wrote...
But think about if they hadn't changed anything about how Jacob talks, but they made him look like Brad Pitt. Some of the comments made about Jacob are suddenly not going to apply anymore.

I'm not seeing how.

I'd also advise against bringing this up here.  Maybe in the Character Discussion thread.

Hey, if someone's going to bring it up, I'm gonna talk about it.

[Errationatus]

Collider wrote...

I like JakeMacDon said, Jacob is still a good "bro." He's still got a few problems unromanced, but that's okay, flaws are good. I just think he would have benefited from having some female Bioware staff read the script. I mean Bioware did, if I recall, survey the female staff to see if they thought that Thane looked attractive.

This.

Also, I really don't think it has anything to do with racism. It's very easy to chalk the whole thing up to be just being prejudiced, but I don't buy that. Certainly, very little of the criticism or the jokes made about Jacob on this forum have to do with him being black.

My bad for not being clear.

I don't think it's a conscious racism, by any means in the majority of cases.  Or even a particularly overtly denegrating kind of racism.  It kinda goes back to my projection theory - a kind of racism more akin to "he's a different 'race', so I can't really relate," and it's hard for some to empathize with Jacob that way.   A lot of things get ingrained into our psyches without us really ever being all that aware of them - kinda like how a hardcore atheist will still say, "For Gawd's sake", or "Jeebus Christios", when they don't buy into either one.

Of course there are complete sh!tbags that won't play him because he just happens to be black.  Their loss.

Oh, and just to chime in on Kasumi, because well, why not, the thought just struck just now - Kasumi, for me, is actually kinda annoying.  She's cute, nice bod, but I don't find her all that cute, and being called "Shep" annoys me, and sometimes she sounds like she's 12 years old:

"Come back later, I'm sure I'll have more to talk about." 
"Golly, thanks for not kicking me outta the moment, Kasumi!  What's that?  Why yes, it is sarcasm."

She also likes to die a great deal.

In a way, Jack kinda ends up the default best romance.  Go figure.

Man.  Am I picky or what?  

Modifié par JakeMacDon, 27 juillet 2010 - 10:53 .

[Errationatus]

Goat_Shepard wrote...
Agreed. You don't need to explain that classic british accent? Yowza.

Yowza, indeed.

Hmm...curious. I had a similar revelation, I wonder if it was the same thing.

Dunno.  What did it for you?

Haha, that's going in Drathan's character description blog for sure

As long as I get the cred, use it all you like.

[Errationatus]

Pacifien wrote...

See, this is a problem with bringing up racism, because everyone is going to say they aren't racist and don't see racist comments being made. But with Jacob, racist comments have really happened on the forums. It's not a whole thread revelling in their racist comments, but it comes up one time in one thread, one time in another thread... And sometimes the joke is funny in its obvious racism and I'm not going to judge the poster's entire mindset on ethnicity based on the one joke. And then there's something to be said about how the power of racism is entirely dependent on how much you're willing to let it get to you.

If I continue with all the scenarios and movitations here, I'm eventually going to be dividing by zero.

It's my own personal experience, but many people simply aren't aware when they're taking ethnicity into account. I get comments about my own ethnicity from someone I find to be an perfectly intelligent individual, but their comment makes me doubletake and go "....what?" Most of the time I'm going to chalk it up to simple and benign ignorance.

But think about if they hadn't changed anything about how Jacob talks, but they made him look like Brad Pitt. Some of the comments made about Jacob are suddenly not going to apply anymore.

This. 

Valid.  Pertinent and a lovely adjunct to my ham-fisted attempts to get across what I was trying to say.

Mucho appreciado.

[Pacifien]

yorkj86 wrote...
Oh well.  Be back when you're through.

This very much reminds me of a particular character thread that gets under my skin and now this thread officially does, too. So sorry to have discussed something that is not met with the approval of the goddamn ****ing thread at large such that you had to be so vocal enough as to announce your departure until the thread does meet with your ****ing standards of proper topics.

[Epantiras]

yorkj86 wrote...

Is that Cerberus-mind-controlled Jack?

EDIT:  It's weird.  Several of the characters not associated with Cerberus have Cerberus logo patterns on their outfits.  Samara and Tali, for example.

I assume you're talking about the exagon pattern you basically see everywhere in ME2, even on krogans. I think it's a link to the "cell" theme (Cerberus cell) but a character having an exagonal pattern on their outfit does not qualify them as Cerberus supporters. BTW the exagon pattern is even on Thane's outfit, in menu bars, everywhere! Probably the art team liked it a bit too much.

Goat_Shepard wrote...
I gotta see this. LINKME!

You asked ;-) epantiras.deviantart.com/art/ME2-Handpicked-160502321

[adriano_c]

If only there was the option to leave Jacob on that planet instead of condemning Ronald Taylor to death/imprisonment...

[adriano_c]

Pacifien wrote...

This very much reminds me of a particular character thread that gets under my skin and now this thread officially does, too. So sorry to have discussed something that is not met with the approval of the goddamn ****ing thread at large such that you had to be so vocal enough as to announce your departure until the thread does meet with your ****ing standards of proper topics.

Lol, one guy is hardly "the thread at large."

[Goat_Shepard]

JakeMacDon wrote...
Dunno.  What did it for you?

Well the whole "I'm never wrong" was rather ominous from the start. Then at the start of the mission it was "Niket's one of my oldest friends, I trust him even though I haven't seen him in decades and he doesn't know the truth". Idk, maybe I'm remembering vaguely,but the whole thing felt like they were driving her naivette too hard.

Epantiras wrote...
You asked ;-) epantiras.deviantart.com/art/ME2-Handpicked-160502321

Aww, how tame I guess her female intuition is a little bias

Pacifien wrote...

yorkj86 wrote...
Oh well.  Be back when you're through.

This very much reminds me of a particular character thread that gets under my skin and now this thread officially does, too. So sorry to have discussed something that is not met with the approval of the goddamn ****ing thread at large such that you had to be so vocal enough as to announce your departure until the thread does meet with your ****ing standards of proper topics.

Well, it makes me a bit uncomfortable too, discussing Jacob in the Jack thread. I forgive it when it's short-lived or just one of many on-topic discussions, but even when it's not, I don't think leaving for that reason alone is healthy, but who am I speaking for? Myself, of course!   I don't mind off-topic when it's actually educational, but a full page or two of it irks me a bit.

Sundown Native wrote...

She says that even if you're late in the romance with her? lol wow, I can't wait to start this playthrough.

Oh, and what part is The Eye? When you give her the data?

If memory serves me well, that scene happens around the same time she gives you the quote Mondo has as a signature.

That line....followed by that look? Wow...uhh...

Modifié par Goat_Shepard, 27 juillet 2010 - 11:20 .

[Pacifien]

Non-Romanceable Characters and Demographics

[Errationatus]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

Subconscious racism?  racism= (superiority)   prejudice= (prejudgment)

You're using the word where it does not apply, if you're only saying that people can't relate to the character.  We have different species/aliens aboard the Normandy.  We seem to relate with a lot of them just fine, but we can't relate to Jacob, because his skin is black?

Not all of us, no, of course not.  In my dictionary, racism and prejudice are the same thing.

I'm not black, and I wouldn't presume to say I know what it's like to see the world through a black person's eyes. It's the same as the presumption that I couldn't tell you how a woman is going to feel about the world she lives in.  I can make assumptions based on a shared humanity, but can't go too much farther than that.  I'm going to make mistakes.  I'm going to have preconceived notions I wasn't even aware I had.  Doesn't make me racist,  just makes me human.

I never said it was rational.  To dislike someone just because they happen to have a tad more melanin in their skin is not a rational act to begin with - and to have it subtly and not so-subtly murmured throughout the various media doesn't help, either.

People look at Jack and go, "tattoos and foul language and shaved head - ew!"  Missing the fact that she's beautiful and the tats, etc, are simply artifice. That's just as prejudiced, just as discriminatory.  It's not racist, but it may as well be.

It doesn't make you a racist, it simply illustrates how deeply into a culture this crap can reach.  We are born neither racist nor religious - we are taught these things and both are ingrained deeply into our cultures, languages and mythologies.  To shake either takes a constant, concerted and conscious effort.

Modifié par JakeMacDon, 28 juillet 2010 - 01:05 .

[adriano_c]

JakeMacDon wrote...

In my dictionary, racism and prejudice are the same thing.

Might want to invest in a new dictionary.

[Mondo47]

I can see now what Jacob meant by "heavy risk" - mention his ass and the thread starts to take on water

Since I brought him up in the first place, I'd like to attempt to try and close this debate down with a little song from one of my favorite Broadway shows. Besides, we aren't really here to give Jacob Taylor free publicity! We're here for our gal. While I love a good debate (and I'll almost certainly be having a good debate before I go to sleep tonight - BADUMTISH  ) there's no need to really let this one run too far... remember, Stanley Woo may drop by and napalm the thread, and we're flying the flag for long-running threads that haven't pissed mods off yet. I think the last word here really should be Priiize though, sooooo, I think perhaps to sum up almost everyone on the planet's opinion, take it away Ronny Taylor -

[adriano_c]

All I know is that if Murtock comes crawling out of the woodwork he's going to be on the receiving end of some (hopefully violent) renegade action on my part.

[Errationatus]

adriano_c wrote...

Might want to invest in a new dictionary.

Racism:  "hatred or intolerance of another race or other races"

Prejudice:  "unreasonable feelings, opinions, or attitudes, esp. of a hostile nature, regarding a racial, religious, or national group."

Minor semantics aside, please indicate the glaring differences between the two.

I ain't see'n it.