Ok, this is the last edition of that comedy video I've done. At least, for a couple of days.
Again, this is for people who feel like laughing, and can toss away common sense for a second, to do so.
Into the Bad Girl: Jack Fans
Débuté par
Average Gatsby
, févr. 05 2010 03:24
#13376
Guest_Sundown Native_*
Posté 20 août 2010 - 07:48
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I have WAY TOO MUCH time on my hands.
Ok, this is the last edition of that comedy video I've done. At least, for a couple of days.
Again, this is for people who feel like laughing, and can toss away common sense for a second, to do so.
Ok, this is the last edition of that comedy video I've done. At least, for a couple of days.
Again, this is for people who feel like laughing, and can toss away common sense for a second, to do so.
Retour en haut
#13377
Posté 20 août 2010 - 12:56
Mondo47
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Ok, this Jack & Renegade Shep debate... I'll go with the heart and drop me own two cents in here.
This is who Jack has been forced to be -
(note I hide those eyes there
)
This is who Jack would perhaps like to be -
Jack's life is cause and effect; Cerberus experiments on her, she ends up where she is now ("Any chance I had to be normal, they stole from me."). She might be a seriously destructive little b*tch, but inside, out from behind that big ol' tower of sh*t, not so much.
My question from there is - can she be anything other than the person she was forced to be around a man who stomps around his ship telling people to get in line or be crushed under his bootheel?
Something tells me no. Someone who is somewhat amoral or cynical; an antiheroic Shep, sure. But there are a lot of Renegade decisions that are just plain douchebaggery, bulling and plain ol' being a jerk. Where that line is drawn between antihero and a*shole, I can't say, but somone that makes a large majority of Renegade decisions is definately straying into Jack's textbook user territory. Sure, maybe a hardline Paragon is probably going to look on her more as a charity case than anything else, but the Renegade Shep... girl deserves better than that.
Just my opinion
This is who Jack has been forced to be -
(note I hide those eyes there
)This is who Jack would perhaps like to be -
Jack's life is cause and effect; Cerberus experiments on her, she ends up where she is now ("Any chance I had to be normal, they stole from me."). She might be a seriously destructive little b*tch, but inside, out from behind that big ol' tower of sh*t, not so much.
My question from there is - can she be anything other than the person she was forced to be around a man who stomps around his ship telling people to get in line or be crushed under his bootheel?
Something tells me no. Someone who is somewhat amoral or cynical; an antiheroic Shep, sure. But there are a lot of Renegade decisions that are just plain douchebaggery, bulling and plain ol' being a jerk. Where that line is drawn between antihero and a*shole, I can't say, but somone that makes a large majority of Renegade decisions is definately straying into Jack's textbook user territory. Sure, maybe a hardline Paragon is probably going to look on her more as a charity case than anything else, but the Renegade Shep... girl deserves better than that.
Just my opinion
#13378
Guest_yorkj86_*
Posté 20 août 2010 - 02:16
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Again, I agree with Mondo.
JD, it's hard to engage your argument, not because it's insurmountable, but because you need to qualify what you mean by Paragon Shepard vs. Renegade Shepard. By his actions? Ratio of Paragon actions vs. Renegade actions? By his Paragon/Renegade meter?
When I said that Jack's trustworthiness is proportionate to Shepard's trustworthiness, what I mean is that if she willingly enters in to the relationship, the amount of trust Jack will place in Shepard is only equal to how much she believes she can trust him. Jack being able to trust Shepard is singly most important.
JD, it's hard to engage your argument, not because it's insurmountable, but because you need to qualify what you mean by Paragon Shepard vs. Renegade Shepard. By his actions? Ratio of Paragon actions vs. Renegade actions? By his Paragon/Renegade meter?
When I said that Jack's trustworthiness is proportionate to Shepard's trustworthiness, what I mean is that if she willingly enters in to the relationship, the amount of trust Jack will place in Shepard is only equal to how much she believes she can trust him. Jack being able to trust Shepard is singly most important.
Modifié par yorkj86, 20 août 2010 - 02:17 .
#13379
Posté 20 août 2010 - 03:25
Mondo47
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Just to pick apart every little word she says... 
Shep: You love the power they gave you.
Jack: They never gave me a choice.
I really don't think Jack wants to be who she is. I think she's trying to find a place to change. Can't do it in prison. Can't do it getting poked and prodded in a lab. Can't do it around criminality. All those things do is enforce the conditioned pattern of behaviour; in those places her biotics, her adopted skills, come to the fore... Jack, rip out this vault door, Jack, hold off those mercs while I cover you, Jack, wring the combination out of this little ******...
Some people have gone on about Shep being a white knight for Jack, and I think to a degree it's right, although it's nowhere as self-righteous as the image it conjours up. Jack does need something she's not getting anywhere else, and Shepard can give her that (white charger optional). The romance is somewhat secondary to it; Jack has the chance to find her identity with a Shep who doesn't romance her, or with a female Shep if you ask me. But I do think it requires someone that gives her a chance to stop... just stop. Maybe it's more of a home she needs, a place like the Normandy? The thing is, can she really get that with an ogre running the show?
I think one of my Sheps that romanced her is about three and a half boxes of Renegade, five of Paragon. It means he's walked the Renegade path more than most of my Sheps; he's The Butcher of Torfin, he's shoved mercs out of windows, made reporters wet themselves without bopping them one, put the screws to people, shoved people around, let his friend commit murder, yelled a court down, let the hostages die to kill Balak in Bring Down The Sky because those three lives balanced out the millions that might be lost if he was able to do it again, but he still treats his crew with respect and stands up for people that can't defend themselves... is that Renegade enough by your concept of the role, Johnny? I'm finding this debate a little ambiguous - where's the line in the sand?
Shep: You love the power they gave you.
Jack: They never gave me a choice.
I really don't think Jack wants to be who she is. I think she's trying to find a place to change. Can't do it in prison. Can't do it getting poked and prodded in a lab. Can't do it around criminality. All those things do is enforce the conditioned pattern of behaviour; in those places her biotics, her adopted skills, come to the fore... Jack, rip out this vault door, Jack, hold off those mercs while I cover you, Jack, wring the combination out of this little ******...
Some people have gone on about Shep being a white knight for Jack, and I think to a degree it's right, although it's nowhere as self-righteous as the image it conjours up. Jack does need something she's not getting anywhere else, and Shepard can give her that (white charger optional). The romance is somewhat secondary to it; Jack has the chance to find her identity with a Shep who doesn't romance her, or with a female Shep if you ask me. But I do think it requires someone that gives her a chance to stop... just stop. Maybe it's more of a home she needs, a place like the Normandy? The thing is, can she really get that with an ogre running the show?
I think one of my Sheps that romanced her is about three and a half boxes of Renegade, five of Paragon. It means he's walked the Renegade path more than most of my Sheps; he's The Butcher of Torfin, he's shoved mercs out of windows, made reporters wet themselves without bopping them one, put the screws to people, shoved people around, let his friend commit murder, yelled a court down, let the hostages die to kill Balak in Bring Down The Sky because those three lives balanced out the millions that might be lost if he was able to do it again, but he still treats his crew with respect and stands up for people that can't defend themselves... is that Renegade enough by your concept of the role, Johnny? I'm finding this debate a little ambiguous - where's the line in the sand?
#13380
Guest_JohnnyDollar_*
Posté 20 août 2010 - 04:08
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I think so.Mondo47 wrote...
... is that Renegade enough by your concept of the role, Johnny? I'm finding this debate a little ambiguous - where's the line in the sand?
I agree that she deserves better than a large majority renegade, or something similar perhaps. I haven't played renegade in a while. This discussion has been a little ambiguous.Mondo47 wrote...
Sure, maybe a hardline Paragon is probably going to look on her more as a charity case than anything else, but the Renegade Shep... girl deserves better than that.
On the one hand you say the girl deserves better than a renegade Shep, which I assume you mean large majority renegade. Which I agree with Mondo. On the other hand, you say that she may be a charity case for a hardline paragon Shep, which I also tend to agree with. By that same reasoning, though, couldn't I say that a hardline paragon Shep deserves better than Jack?
Edit: Or is saying that Jack may be a charity case for a hardline type of paragon Shep, the same as saying that a hardline type of paragon Shep probably deserves better than Jack?
You're not addressing Jack's trustworthiness here, york. You keep addressing Shepard's, and not Jack's. Is Jack trustworthy?yorkj86 wrote...
When I said that Jack's trustworthiness is proportionate to Shepard's trustworthiness, what I mean is that if she willingly enters in to the relationship, the amount of trust Jack will place in Shepard is only equal to how much she believes she can trust him. Jack being able to trust Shepard is singly most important.
Edit: again.
Modifié par JohnnyDollar, 20 août 2010 - 04:44 .
#13381
Posté 20 août 2010 - 05:47
MHRazer
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I think the general consensus, since I've seen it mentioned before, is that Jack's trust is very difficult to earn (obviously), but once she believes in and cares for something she'd protect it to death.JohnnyDollar wrote...
Is Jack trustworthy?
So, initially, no she isn't trustworthy at all. She'll kill you before you even get the chance to do the same to her. But, for example, Paragon romanced Shepard? I don't think she'd ever betray or turn on him - she'd probably be the most trustworthy person on the whole ship. She doesn't have any other allegiances.
Modifié par MHRazer, 20 août 2010 - 05:47 .
#13382
Posté 20 août 2010 - 05:49
Razorsedge820
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Found this little Jem while browsing
Its not complete but I really like Jacks muscle tone and facial expression in this piece its says allot about her character just by looking at it. Looks like something straight out of a comic book.
It would be great if Jack had her own comic book series, so much potential sex, violence, and guns three crucial elements to any comic book series plus her back story has so much depth.
P.S
Credit goes to Jeff Spokes for the pic.
Its not complete but I really like Jacks muscle tone and facial expression in this piece its says allot about her character just by looking at it. Looks like something straight out of a comic book.
It would be great if Jack had her own comic book series, so much potential sex, violence, and guns three crucial elements to any comic book series plus her back story has so much depth.
P.S
Credit goes to Jeff Spokes for the pic.
Modifié par Razorsedge820, 20 août 2010 - 05:50 .
#13383
Posté 20 août 2010 - 05:54
Mondo47
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That is one really hard-bodied looking Jack. Stone-eyed too. Scary Jack! It's nice work, that's for sure. Would love to see it finished.
#13384
Guest_yorkj86_*
Posté 20 août 2010 - 05:55
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I am addressing Jack's trustworthiness, JD. She is as trustworthy as Shepard is trustworthy.
If you think that her trustworthiness may be suspect on a ship full of mercenaries and killers, then I can agree with you. For Shepard, the relationship is a leap of faith.
The observations of the player have him notice that Jack has deep issues with trust. That is where the leap of faith comes in.
If you think that her trustworthiness may be suspect on a ship full of mercenaries and killers, then I can agree with you. For Shepard, the relationship is a leap of faith.
The observations of the player have him notice that Jack has deep issues with trust. That is where the leap of faith comes in.
#13385
Guest_yorkj86_*
Posté 20 août 2010 - 05:57
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I like that picture. Jack does have those muscles, they're just hard to see, due to her tattoos. Did you find that picture on DA?
#13386
Posté 20 août 2010 - 06:03
Razorsedge820
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yorkj86 wrote...
I like that picture. Jack does have those muscles, they're just hard to see, due to her tattoos. Did you find that picture on DA?
No on someones Blog here is the link if your interested http://jeffreyspokes...acksubject.html
Modifié par Razorsedge820, 20 août 2010 - 06:04 .
#13387
Guest_yorkj86_*
Posté 20 août 2010 - 06:09
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Hm. That's an old post, back from February. I guess he didn't finish it, or didn't post it there.
#13388
Posté 20 août 2010 - 06:27
MHRazer
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Eh... not really a fan of the over-stylized muscles. Jack is toned, and I suppose it's the comic-book-y style, but it's just too overdone for me.
#13389
Guest_yorkj86_*
Posté 20 août 2010 - 06:42
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Has anyone seen royceclemens recently?
#13390
Posté 20 août 2010 - 06:47
Mondo47
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He was about a couple of weeks ago.
#13391
Guest_JohnnyDollar_*
Posté 20 août 2010 - 07:00
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I don't think you have, york.yorkj86 wrote...
I am addressing Jack's trustworthiness, JD. She is as trustworthy as Shepard is trustworthy.
It appears to me, anyway, that you have been evading the question with non answers. Jack is not as trustworthy as Shepard is trustworthy. That isn't how it works. One's trustworthiness is guaged depending on the decisions and actions that one has made in his/her life.
If you think that her trustworthiness may be suspect on a ship full of mercenaries and killers, then I can agree with you. For Shepard, the relationship is a leap of faith.
The observations of the player have him notice that Jack has deep issues with trust. That is where the leap of faith comes in.
I didn't say that I thought that. I asked if she is trustworthy. An answer that you have
refused to give, other than now saying that you can agree with me, if I think that her trustworthiness may be suspect, and then, what looks like to me, minimizing it, by comparing Jack to the other personnel on the ship. Can this suspect trustworthiness be applied to Shepard as well? If not, then why not?
Your reasoning so far, is that Jack needs to know that she can trust Shepard, and therefore needs a paragon Shepard, not a renegade Shepard. Assuming, apparently, that a renegade Shepard is untrustworthy. That appears to be what you're going by. At the same time, you're excusing Jack's own suspect trustworthiness. It sounds like you're trying to have it both ways to me.
So Shepard has to be trustworthy, and not suspect? While Jack's trustworthiness, as you agreed, is suspect, but she doesn't have to be trustworthy, and Shepard has to make the leap of faith in that regard?
Modifié par JohnnyDollar, 20 août 2010 - 07:02 .
#13392
Guest_yorkj86_*
Posté 20 août 2010 - 07:22
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I need a conceptual framework, JD.
If you're asking me if she can be considered trustworthy enough for a relationship, then it is a leap of faith for Shepard. Her trustworthiness is suspect. He's letting himself get close to a woman who claims that killing is just her evening the odds in her favor.
If you're asking me if she can be considered objectively trustworthy outside of a relationship, no. However, if the player has Shepard put trust in Jack, there are instances where he can see that the trust is reciprocated, or, at least, acknowledged, an example being Shepard helping her with the mission to Pragia.
You need to tell me what kind of Shepard I'm considering, JD. Otherwise, it's all relative. Even then, I would only be able to tell you how I think Jack would respond to each possible Renegade action Shepard can perform, and even then, it's a matter of opinion and perception.
If you're asking me if she can be considered trustworthy enough for a relationship, then it is a leap of faith for Shepard. Her trustworthiness is suspect. He's letting himself get close to a woman who claims that killing is just her evening the odds in her favor.
If you're asking me if she can be considered objectively trustworthy outside of a relationship, no. However, if the player has Shepard put trust in Jack, there are instances where he can see that the trust is reciprocated, or, at least, acknowledged, an example being Shepard helping her with the mission to Pragia.
You need to tell me what kind of Shepard I'm considering, JD. Otherwise, it's all relative. Even then, I would only be able to tell you how I think Jack would respond to each possible Renegade action Shepard can perform, and even then, it's a matter of opinion and perception.
#13393
Guest_JohnnyDollar_*
Posté 20 août 2010 - 07:55
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I pretty much agree with that. That was basically, at least part of, what I was I trying to get you to give me your thoughts on.yorkj86 wrote...
I need a conceptual framework, JD.
If you're asking me if she can be considered trustworthy enough for a relationship, then it is a leap of faith for Shepard. Her trustworthiness is suspect. He's letting himself get close to a woman who claims that killing is just her evening the odds in her favor.
If you're asking me if she can be considered objectively trustworthy outside of a relationship, no. However, if the player has Shepard put trust in Jack, there are instances where he can see that the trust is reciprocated, or, at least, acknowledged, an example being Shepard helping her with the mission to Pragia.
It's pretty close what Mondo described, that I have quoted below. I'll list a few things that she didn't.You need to tell me what kind of Shepard I'm considering, JD. Otherwise, it's all relative. Even then, I would only be able to tell you how I think Jack would respond to each possible Renegade action Shepard can perform, and even then, it's a matter of opinion and perception.
Here is one of my Sheps:
Chose the neutral decision with the Council. Saved the Collector Base. Killed the Rachni Queen. Killed Fist, Helena Blake, Rana Thanopis, Finch, Ethon Jong, and Shialla. Killed Dr. Michelle's Krogan blackmailer. Killed the scientist who was involved in the experiments on Cpl. Toombs.
Did not kill Wrex. Saved the colony at Feros. Did not betray Gianna Parisini. Saved Capt. Kirrahe's team. I think he saved Chairman Burns.
I also think that he spared "Father Kyle"
Mondo47 wrote...
It means he's walked the Renegade path more than most of my Sheps; he's The Butcher of Torfin, he's shoved mercs out of windows, made reporters wet themselves without bopping them one, put the screws to people, shoved people around, let his friend commit murder, yelled a court down, let the hostages die to kill Balak in Bring Down The Sky because those three lives balanced out the millions that might be lost if he was able to do it again, but he still treats his crew with respect and stands up for people that can't defend themselves...
Modifié par JohnnyDollar, 20 août 2010 - 07:56 .
#13394
Posté 20 août 2010 - 08:02
Mondo47
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I don't think I'd trust anyone that killed the Rachni... it's one step over genocide, it's commiting a species to extinction. Nature can make that choice, not a man. That's beyond douchebaggery. Never been able to bring myself to do it, even with my beloved Wrex b*tching at me about it. Some things cross a line.
#13395
Guest_yorkj86_*
Posté 20 août 2010 - 08:06
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JohnnyDollar wrote...
I pretty much agree with that. That was basically, at least part of, what I was I trying to get you to give me your thoughts on.
I should point out that it's not an entirely blind leap of faith. The way Jack reciprocates trust, confides in Shepard, and shows her thanks, after he helps her on the mission, shows him that Jack isn't a psychopath, as Bioware would have us believe.
Modifié par yorkj86, 20 août 2010 - 08:07 .
#13396
Guest_JohnnyDollar_*
Posté 20 août 2010 - 08:39
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I did it with a couple of renegade Shepards.Mondo47 wrote...
I don't think I'd trust anyone that killed the Rachni... it's one step over genocide, it's commiting a species to extinction. Nature can make that choice, not a man. That's beyond douchebaggery. Never been able to bring myself to do it, even with my beloved Wrex b*tching at me about it. Some things cross a line.
However, I can't honestly say for sure, if I could trust someone who saved the Rachni. A Shepard who may be putting his own self serving ideology above the ramifications of a possible future war with the Rachni, and what that could do to the future of humanity, and the other species in the galaxy. Possibly in order to make himself feel good, that he may have done the richeous thing, instead of weighing the consequences, and the responsibility of the decision. I'm not totally sure about it. At least with this Shepard, anyway. If I was meta-gaming with this Shepard, then sure, let her go.
Either way, Jack's trustworthiness is still in question as well. She doesn't get a free pass. It takes 2 to tango. She has killed for profit, as well as holding the belief that another person dead, increases her own survivability. I wonder what Jack would decide concerning the Rachni decision?
Granted, her background is obviously much more extreme and traumatic than a sole survivor Shepard, and the situations aren't the same. The reasons are there, but she still has to take responsibility for her own actions. Yet Jack's questionable trustworthiness is acceptable? I'm not sure if I can buy into that, because it sounds hypocritical to me.
Edit: Just to make something clear...I personally didn't like killing the Rachni Queen. Even though I was role playing, and Wrex was taunting me, I still had a bit of a hard time doing it. Espcecially after it happened. Similar to killing Samara for Morinth, except that was a bit easier, maybe. I did not like doing either one personally, but this particular Shepard did those things.
Edit again: Correction, the other renegade Shepard killed Samara, not this one.
Modifié par JohnnyDollar, 20 août 2010 - 09:03 .
#13397
Posté 20 août 2010 - 09:30
Collider
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Is there anyone else here who loves Jack as a character, but disliked her romance?
Modifié par Collider, 20 août 2010 - 09:31 .
#13398
Guest_JohnnyDollar_*
Posté 20 août 2010 - 09:38
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I like both. She's got the best romance in the game, imo. It's emotional and dramatic, as well as having enough depth that digs into her character. It would be nice if Shepard could be affected in these relationships, but he's always a stone statue. What makes you dislike it Collider?Collider wrote...
Is there anyone else here who loves Jack as a character, but disliked her romance?
Modifié par JohnnyDollar, 20 août 2010 - 09:50 .
#13400
Guest_JohnnyDollar_*
Posté 20 août 2010 - 09:53
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You mean all of the paragon choices on the dialog wheel leading up to it? Or is this with mixed neutral/paragon/renegade dialog?
