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[Collider]

JohnnyDollar wrote...
You mean all of the paragon choices on the dialog wheel leading up to it? Or is this with mixed neutral/paragon/renegade dialog?

The dialog options in general. I hated how Shepard acted like he knew better than her, and he wont leave because he thought  that she needed the romance. Like she was dumb as rocks and Shepard was smarter than her and knew what she really wanted.

He needs to treat Jack with respect (this is what Jack needed the most! Respect!) , and not an inferior. It felt one sided and like Shepard was trying to coax or harass her into a relationship. Just about the only thing I liked was one way Shepard can break up with her - he says that Jack doesn't need him trying to mess with her head. That's what he should have said all along.

I hated her romance. But I think I appreciate Jack more now - platonically. 

Modifié par Collider, 20 août 2010 - 10:07 .

[Collider]

yorkj86 wrote...
Collider, your discussion in the Character Discussion Group is why I brought up, a few pages ago, those topics I listed a few pages ago. Whether or not the romance is misogynistic, if it's creepy how Shepard approaches Jack, if it undermines Jack's character, her being open to a romance, etc.

I disagree with pretty much everything you argue in that thread, by the way.

That's fine york. It's opinion. Also, I am not making any statements about the intent of the player who does or does not do Jack's romance, in case I was interpreted as such. I did get some misogynistic vibes from the romance due to the circumstances, but I do not actually think the romance is misogynistic (and as stated before, I do not have an opinion on people who romance Jack in any capacity).

I also don't think it undermines or damages Jack's character really. It damages my perception of Shepard, but not really Jack.

Modifié par Collider, 20 août 2010 - 10:09 .

[Mondo47]

I can see where you're coming from, Col. I don't entirely agree with it, but I don't entirely disagree either. Meer's reading of certain lines is... well, off. Sure, we can call Hale on coming off like a hungry cougar in a highschool changing room eyeing up the talent when she talks to Jacob, but Meer swings wildly between flat as f*ck and arrogant ******, and this happens in the Jack dialogues a lot. The writing of the neutral and bottom-right responses is crackling with fire, and Meer reads it like he's dubbing an episode of the old He-Man. It's camp OTT Skeletor or dull Prince Adam with him. It don't help, and it really does make him sound a mite condescending and disrespectful.

The thing is, in some ways, Shep isn't out of line to think Jack isn't firing on all cylinders, judgement-wise. I mean, come on, try and defend some of the sh*t she's done. We can understand why she got there, why she made those choices, but does that mean that any innocent bystanders that got nailed in whatever criminal activity can be handwaved by us? Nope. Jack has been a bad person... she never really wanted to be one, but she is. There's plenty of room for her to redeem herself though - think about an Earthborn Shep; he's probably done some similar (if not so spectacular) things. Jack's not bad at heart though, so there's room for her to redeem herself one day - and I'd say helping Shep save the galaxy should go some way to sorting the karmic balance out. She's not evil, just judgement-impaired thanks to circumstance and bad choices. I can see Shep perhaps talking down to her a little in the early part of the relationship - I'm not talking about him wooing her here, just in crew-interaction. I think once he sees there's more reason behind all this aggression and criminality, he maybe sees why she is the way she is more.

It's actually what makes it more like an actual romance than, well, any other romance in either of the games with perhaps the exception of Kaidan and to a degree Jacob and Thane. Everything else feels like Shep of either sex jumping in the sack for a sport f*ck and not much else. Kaidan takes time to talk about feelings and emotions (his own and Shep's) and only really shoots his foot off when he reacts like a total jackass if you choose Liara over him. Jacob does the same, though the loveboat is torpedoed by Hale's dialogue being sexual from moment-one and "the priiize", and Thane's is more about making him see that impending death or not, he can still feel and enjoy life. Jack though... the romance has the back-and-forth of sparring personalities, Shep isn't there to talk about his feelings, but Jack's in the romance's entire runtime. Like I said before, once he gets to the heart of it - that Jack isn't really the big bad wolf she wants the world to be, he coaxes her out. I see that as interest in who she really is; Shep looking beyond her criminal record and bragging and undeniable destructive potential to see who really is in there. I don't see that as being pushy, because it's the only way to get at Jack - the real Jack. Because the real Jack is certainly not the woman that pulled the Purgatory apart... inside the monster is a real person trying to get out...

We're not presented with another way to engage Jack, though, so it's the only way we have. It's not perfect for a lot of reasons, but I think it's still the most real and engaging romance we have in the game. And I'll happily cut Shep a little slack based on the fact Meer is as changable in quality as the British weather and it's all we have. If there was a friendship route to get to that part of Jack for all Sheps, or a chance to get there before it turns into romance, I'd be even happier with it, but we got what we got. It doesn't make me think any less of Shepard, only think that if they'd had more budget, more time... oh, we could have had a romance as big as the one in Casablanca; one that even if it didn't end up with Jack in Shep's arms, it would have been the beginning of a beautiful friendship...

[tommyt_1994]

Hey fellow Jackolytes, just wondering, can anyone link me to the Jack romance vids? All I can seem to find is the final romance scene and the renegade casual sex scene. Shocker huh? <_<

Thanks

[tommyt_1994]

yorkj86 wrote...

tommyt_1994 wrote...

Hey fellow Jackolytes, just wondering, can anyone link me to the Jack romance vids? All I can seem to find is the final romance scene and the renegade casual sex scene. Shocker huh? <_<

Thanks

Here's the "Lead up".

I also have a video that shows the talk Mordin gives to Shepard about Jack.

Thanks, york. I don't believe that all of her romance scenes are on youtube, I've looked through dozens

Modifié par tommyt_1994, 20 août 2010 - 11:32 .

[Collider]

I didn't get a vibe that he thinks that she is dumb, and that he is superior and disrespectful towards her.

 these lines especially struck me: "You aren't the thinking type Jack." "Maybe you don't get it yet: I don't give up." I'm sure there's more, I don't have all of the lines on hand.

As far as not leaving goes, he is persistent. He wants the relationship with her. If you have interest in someone , in particular if you're a guy dealing with a woman, you have to show confidence. I'm not intentionally patronizing you here btw, just giving my opinion. You have to show that you aren't going to give up easily. Any woman that's worth her salt, to use Mondo's phrase, is going to make you earn her respect. You can't be timid about it, and you have to be willing to handle rejection, and deflect it, and keep trying.

Johnny, I really don't need dating tips, nor do I need a lecture. I have been there, done that, and haven't had a problem with this in particular. I'm sure you don't really want to hear about my previous relationships, so in respect of that I'd prefer we keep this outside of personal matters.

I think you are confusing my position. It is not that I somehow find fault with Shepard with being confident. At all. That honestly never crossed my mind.

What my position actually was, was that I found fault with Shepard effectively saying "I know you want me," ad nauseum, even when Jack is saying otherwise. Certainly, there is nothing wrong with pursuing Jack. That was not my issue. My issue was Shepard presuming to know what Jack wants, and acting like Jack needed the relationship. The fact that one way to break up with Jack - the last one available before the romance scene before the Omega 4 Relay - is Shepard telling Jack that she doesn't actually need him, is evidence of this to me, in my own interpretation. It's not that he's "confident," (lol, how am I supposed to find fault with that?) instead of that I'd say he acted "arrogantly."

As Mondo talked about, the romance would have felt more natural to me had there been a friendship that served as foundation.

@Mondo: I'll get back to you. That's a lot of text to go through.

Modifié par Collider, 20 août 2010 - 11:51 .

[FsDxRAGE]

Peeking in on the Jack fans, how is it going in here?

[Collider]

@Mondo: Some really great points there. I don't agree with you about which romances were "real," but I do think part of the issue was Meer's voice acting as you said. It was the wording of the lines themselves in addition to how Meer said them that set off my alarm so to speak. I did notice that Meer was often either flat or had an exaggerated tone to him a lot of the time (in the games in general). One can look at how M!Shepard and F!Shepard ask how Kelly is after the suicide mission to see that clear as day. I have to say that I am reminded of how I believe Hale is a better voice actor. Thanks for responding, that was a great post to read.

Modifié par Collider, 21 août 2010 - 12:00 .

[Collider]

@Johnny: Hey, no sweat. If I had a dime for every time I've misinterpreted or been misinterpreted on the internet

As I said earlier, I think the Jack/Shepard romantic relationship is a bit of a moral quandary.  Part of that is what I have been trying to discuss in this thread the last three pages.  However, no one wants to put everything on the table and discuss it, or so it appears to me anyway.

I came into this discussion a bit late, it seems. How do you feel it's a moral quandry?

[Goat_Shepard]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

Collider wrote...
these lines especially struck me: "You aren't the thinking type Jack." "Maybe you don't get it yet: I don't give up."

I see where you're coming from here.  The first line can be interpreted as a bit of an insult to Jack, I suppose. 

Shepard likes to play the shrink sometimes, Jack even told me so during this playthrough. I don't think that was an insult, because Jack doesn't overthink things, "death is easy, fuckin on-off switch." My impression is that Jack is the one with a tower of shit to hide behind, and makes you jump through hoops from the beginning. She's forcing Shepard to keep prodding, to not give up. He wants to get to know her because she's an enigma, and wants to talk through her issues because he cares, and he's also interested. With Jack, I felt like Shepard's confidence was his way of relating to her assuredness. Being too soft would be too cliche for Jack, perhaps.  The renegade options themselves seemed very reckless, like the whole thing is just for fun, so I believe the name applies. I don't prefer them.

I've yet to pass through the O4R yet but so far I think this paragon path I'm following is something special. Jack is strong, I don't feel like I'm fixing her, but being a positive influence amongst all the shortcomings. Listening to the person and being concerned can go a long way. If both people are better off in the end, I don't care who made the first move, or who thinks they wear the pants in the relationship.

Having said that, playing mah renegade and siding with Jack, insulting Miranda, then winning Miranda's loyalty back by insulting her again has shown me just how superior Shepard knows he is. Paragon always knows better, too, sometimes I think Shepard is superman, or that he's not even real.

Sundown Native wrote...
I can see why people think it, but really...Is Meer's delivery THAT damn bad?

Idk, a few weeks ago I thought Garrus was the only thing from Mass Effect that nobody hated on, but then I met someone who flat out said she hated him. Learn something every day.

[Goat_Shepard]

Good points, Sundown, I concur.

yorkj86 wrote...
I also have a video that shows the talk Mordin gives to Shepard about Jack.

Something about Mordin's talk has made me even more...anticipated...for the pre-suicide launch scene.

Modifié par Goat_Shepard, 21 août 2010 - 02:32 .