20813 réponses à ce sujet

[royceclemens]

I'm certain they do, though I'd hesitate using the word "stereotype." It's BW's method, as their games are pretty much trope blenders. It's what they do with them that counts. Tattooed bad girls are a dime a dozen, but there's only one Jack. A perfect storm of archetypal familiarity and good writing and acting.



But BioWare wouldn't have gotten as far as they have without knowing who plays their games, what attracts different players to different characters and how to expound on that. Taking that into consideration, they knew that a segment of the players wouldn't be satisified, for whatever reason, with Miranda or Tali. Thus Jack comes into play. Fact of the matter is, they saw us coming.



And if they saw us coming, they had to see the backlash coming too. It's impossible for anything otherwise.

[Pacifien]

JohnnyDollar wrote...
I came across this ME2 endgame flowchart at gameinformer.  I was linked to it from masseffesaves.com.  Thought maybe a few of you would be interested, if you haven't seen it already.

Aw, come on, the guide Ecael and I worked on is, like, way better.

[axl99]

So ah, yeah. Shadow Broker DLC next week....



I am so waiting for a confrontation between LIs. But I'll try not to get my hopes up much.

[Collider]

They seem to be waiting until ME3 for the confrontations. So far as they have implied, anyway.

[Mondo47]

royceclemens wrote...

And in what I can only imagine is the most grievous sin a character can commit in this day and age, while RPG love interests are supposed to be unsullied and chaste until the player gets there, Jack is the only male LI in either game that has a sexual history she's willing to talk about. 

Now this... this statement really makes me think. Now, I recall saying once in the Miranda thread (on the one occasion I ever went there, and based on my welcome and the respect for my opinions shown, I won't be going back) that I really wished the idea of a previous relationship between Jacob and Miranda had been explored more, and I would have loved the chance to get them back together; to play matchmaker in the game. The reactions I got suggesting that Miranda might have *gasp* had sex with someone other than Shepard was the kind I would have expected for suggesting their fourteen year old sister was working as a prostitute on the same streetcorner as their mother does. I was soundly lambasted for suggesting that their precious Miri might have done something naughty with someone like Jacob... apparently she was saving herself for the only man in the galaxy worthy of her much-vaunted genetic perfection. Must have been the combo of that and me saying Miri is a snotty cow that really won them over, eh?

But it makes me think... if the larger sections of the fanbases for love interests are composed of members of the opposite sex to the LI, and we then compare the male love interests (Miranda and Ash - potentially married to their careers, Liara - young, bookish and inexperienced, Tali - self-confessed virgin... I'll leave out the "another life" with Samara and the notch in the bedpost with Kelly  ), one could potentially construe that there is a correlation between male acceptance of the character as a love interest and sexual experience. No, I'm not trying to say that virginal or inexperienced males are attracted to characters with similar levels of sexual experience (though it would be very easy to draw that conclusion, given the figures, and several threads are around debating this possibility), what I'm wondering here is whether, in the 21st century, we're still working from this antiquated model of romance that requires a woman be a virgin when she presents herself physically to her "true love" and that anything other than that is socially abhorrent? Based on the reaction to my idea that Miranda and Jacob were once an item, I'm forced to think in many ways it is... and frankly, how disgusting is that if that is indeed the case? Yes girls, we can have all the sexual liberation we like... just not in the idealised fantasy world of gaming. Or if your boyfriend's mother asks if you're a "nice girl".

So, since the general opinion from her conversations and backstory are that Jack is not only very experienced sexually, but has also been repeatedly exposed to sexual violence... does that contribute to the opinions of her somehow? Regardless of her own perceived opinions, does this factor make Jack "untouchable"? Did she ask for this all in some way? Because if it does... ugh <_<

Modifié par Mondo47, 01 septembre 2010 - 07:03 .

[royceclemens]

@Mondo



Well, I've noticed that the LIs with the biggest following are Liara and Tali... And they're the two confirmed virgins. Gee, I'd like to think this was a coincidence, but sadly, I think it's not. To be absolutely fair, BioWare has excelled in making everyone who plays their games feel like the most specialest little boy or girl in the world. This is the logical conclusion, though whether they want to feel like the center of the universe through being the inital sexual experience for one of the characters or if they don't feel manly unless they can collect virginities like kids collect baseball cards, I will leave to better folk than myself.



Or it could be the writing or the acting, but given york's 4chan conversations that went to the tune of "Alpha-Males don't take used goods," I'll never be able to say for certain.

[Epantiras]

Mondo47 wrote...
So, since the general opinion from her conversations and backstory are that Jack is not only very experienced sexually, but has also been repeatedly exposed to sexual violence... does that contribute to the opinions of her somehow? Regardless of her own perceived opinions, does this factor make Jack "untouchable"? Did she ask for this all in some way? Because if it does... ugh <_<

Because one Disgusted WTF Jack is not enough!

Still, Leliana and Zevran both had previous sexual experience, but they're not considered "untouchable". Ok, Zevran is untoucheable because "oh noes a gay elf", but that's leave that out of this thread. When Leli tells the Warden about her time in the Orlesian prisons, torture is mentioned and sexual violence implied, but it seems she does not receive the same hate. Why? Because she's sweet and feminine. Jack is bad, butch, swears like a sailor and calls Shepard "a p*ssy"! "Noooo, nobody can do that and live long enough to tell that! She also offers casual sex! Ahh, she's a prostitute! Go away from me."
Sweet Lord of Murder, it makes me sick to tipe all that horsedung!

[Mondo47]

Nope, I'm not either, I'm merely trying to see how that line of reasoning in socio-sexual politics could relate to Jack's anti-fanbase. It's only relating to Jack what I've raised - no danger of going off-topic here.

[Epantiras]

It's nice to talk about WHY PEOPLE HATE JACK, really, but shouldn't we, like, talk about WHY WE LIKE JACK? Because, you know, as JohnnyDollar wrote, we'll end up talking about bigger facts like misogynism and other things I really HATE (and could accidentally attract unwanted attentions to our little thread).

[royceclemens]

Indeed. Seeing why others don't like Jack can add nuances to the appreciation we have for her. Through others, we can help add definition to how we think.

Furthermore, Johnny, not to split hairs, but I don't think we were debating anything. Discussing, yes, but we were all in agreement, as far as I could tell.

And I should probably add as a caveat, I didn't wish to paint all Tali and Liara fans with the same brush. They're not all skeevy virgin hunters, and most of them are intelligent, creative individuals as our own Collider and york are fine examples.

Modifié par royceclemens, 01 septembre 2010 - 08:16 .

[axl99]

Well. There's only one word I can use to describe Miranda during her relationship with Jacob. It begins with the letter C and I prefer to leave the rest to your glorious imaginations.



As for the anti-Jack, I just think in most cases there's a severe lack of empathy for the very reasons Mondo's already stated. Yes, Jack is used goods. But not necessarily by choice, that isn't her fault, so what the hell?



People just don't want to deal with her crap.



There's also that weird double standard of people forcing their fantasies on chaste fictional characters. As being Commander Shepard already allows players to "own this room, and own you".

[Errationatus]

One point I think is relevant in this discussion is that we probably shouldn't forget the incredibly huge difference between sex and rape.

How many of those experiences can be considered actual consensual sex and how many acts of violence?

Personally, I for one do NOT, when I've been told that a potential partner has been raped, think:  "Oh, well, so you have had sex already, dash it all."  That is pure scumbaggery.

As far as sex goes, to my mind, rape doesn't count, if you follow me.  Is a woman a slùt because she's been raped since childhood?  Yeah, pretty much in the same vein as a guy being a prize fighter because he gets his butt whupped on the playground everyday.

Looked at that way, IMO, Jack is not necessarily all that sexually experienced.  Being with "lots of different people" is a subjective statement and we have no way of knowing how factual that is because it could very well be part of Jack's "You best keep away" ploy.

That "Thrust" from Jack is a test - you take it, you fail and you should, you piece of sh!t.

I'm not quite sure how much sense the above makes, but I've been ill recently, and I can't tell if my brain is back up to steam, yet. 

[axl99]

I disagree when such fantasies are imposed on others in a debate. Just saying "welcome to the internets" isn't enough to change the fact that people here [in this thread] have gotten chewed out [by a few people in other threads] for voicing an opinion.

Modifié par axl99, 01 septembre 2010 - 09:00 .

[Errationatus]

Oh, and any Farscape fans about?  I've slapped up a couple of fics I wrote on FanFiction.Net. 

The first:  Blind Icarus,

and it's conclusion.

Enjoy.  Feel free to review.  I like reviews.

JACK CONTENT:

Also, the next part of Intermezzo is coming along for those who were reading that, I'm just having a little writer's block.  I will get there though.  Honest.

[axl99]

I know nothing of Farscape, but I'll remedy that soon enough.

In the meantime, here's a little fanfic I've been sorta working on and off for the past bit. Been inspired by my recent adventures into a 3d sculpting program called Zbrush. A little long, but hopefully an enjoyable read.

Rock on.

- - -

A strange disquiet had festered on the fourth deck of the Normandy, moreso than usual. For the engineering staff in the engine core, it was nerve-wracking having an overpowered biotic convict capable of destroying turian space-stations lurking beneath them in the sub-engine room. The recent flurry of loud noises reverberating through the vents was enough to make them triple check diagnostics to see if anything was broken inside the ship.

The last timid soul who bravely ventured down the stairs into the convict's lair had been scared off by a cacophony of ricocheting metal. The convict had apparently barricaded herself inside with a pile of heavy storage bins from the cargo hold, it was difficult to see what was going on behind them in the dim red lighting. When begged to intervene, the Quarian sternly told the engineers to pay it no mind and get back to work. Even EDI was unable to detect what was going on as the bins blocked off her sensors. At that point the staff attempted to rationalize the situation by assuming the convict was simply testing out new shotguns the Commander had recently acquired.

On the third deck, a former Cerberus officer was following up on inconsistent inventory reports on minerals the ship had mined on each planet they visited, most particularly on the surplus of palladium stock. The amount was small enough to be negligible on a first glance, but she couldn't help but wonder if one of the crew members had skimmed off a few chunks to sell to the local shipyards for credits. Her investigation finally hit a dead end when she found herself saddled with redundant paperwork in regards to the upkeep of the ship's outrageously high-maintenance upgrades.

The engineers' speculation-laced reports eventually made their way into the eyes and ears of the crew on the second deck. The yeoman, effectively the eyes and ears of the ship after its AI, made it a point to inform the Commander on the first deck that the convict from the fourth deck had been scaring the engineers again and no one on the third deck had been mobilized to intervene.

The Commander, rubbing his eyes for what felt like the umpteenth time, finally requested the sentient Geth in the AI core to investigate the sub-engine deck. When the machine inexplicably failed to report in, the Justicar was called in its stead - much to the relief of the engineering staff.

Roused from her meditations, the Justicar made her way downstairs with light footsteps. She stopped in her tracks when she heard the forceful deluge of crashing metal had caused some of the storage bins to budge and scrape along the ground. Slipping behind the makeshift barricade Samara's eyes beheld a strange sight.

The Justicar spied the geth curiously sitting several feet away from Jack in a corner as the convict levitated a slab of rock onto a smaller table and sat back in her cot to stare at it intently.

A row of rocks of varied shapes and sizes lined up neatly beside her feet, slowly shuffling out of place as her thick blue cloak of biotic energy rippled through the air. Her jaw set, her hands clasped tight, her feet stuck onto the ground, Jack molded the shape of her biotic barrier into an arrowhead and shot it straight into the rock she had set down earlier. Waves of murderous intent chipped away at the rock so forcefully that a huge number of pieces flew into the storage bins behind them with a satisfying "THUNKTHUNKTHUNKTHUNKTHUNK".

- - -

Her energy spent, Jack wiped the sweat off her brow and groped around for a plate of leftover submarine she stowed beneath her cot. Chewing thoughtfully, Jack's attention turned towards the Geth, "How'd I do this time?"

Peering at the rock from varing angles, the Geth replied, "Accuracy: 78.65%."

Another failure. Jack rolled her eyes and groaned. Without taking her eyes off the flayed piece of rock, an exasperated Jack finally called out to Samara, "Did they tell you to come here to watch too?"

Stepping from the shadows the Justicar gingerly touched the pieces of rock embedded onto Jack's makeshift wall and asked, "Is this how you train yourself for the battles to come?" Jack just shook her head, bit off another chunk of the submarine and pointed at the rocks by her feet. "Take a good look."

Following the convict's gaze, Samara bent down and picked up a smooth wedge-shaped rock off the ground. Turning it in her hand in the dim light she saw the Quarian's helmet depicted in surprisingly sharp detail. On a closer look, she could even see the tiny swirling patterns on its hood. Looking at the rest of the sculptures Jack had at her feet, Samara saw tiny replicas of the salarian, the krogan, a Harbinger and a 1/16th scale model of the Normandy SR2.

Her eyes glancing between the sculpture on the table and the Geth that studied it in rapt fascination, "So you have been training."

The Geth mirrored the quizzical expression on its carved twin, "The human biotic organic has an abnormal capacity for spatial visualization. We are curious to see how much she can replicate this platform from memory."

"And tin bucket here makes a great desk lamp," said Jack between bites, sliding the Geth an accusatory glance. "I've reworked this thing five times now, too many pieces packed into his head to get this down right. Thanks to that I'm almost out of materials to use."

In an attempt to further relations with organic species, Legion submitted its final evaluation of Jack's latest work, "This platform replica is adequate enough for mass production."

Registering the tension and velocity of which the Asari and the human turned their heads to its last two words, the Geth calculated the probability of its survival in open conflict and neutralized the possible threat in four words: "...That was a joke."  Judging from the organics' response in their relaxed shifting of posture, it was clear to Legion there was progress yet to be made.

The cause of the noises on the ship finally deduced, Samara carefully chose her next words for a constructive approach to the problem, "This sculpture is very well made regardless. With a much lower biotic output you could continue to refine the details down instead of repeating the process."

Jack immediately caught the implication and snorted, "The geth said the same thing about how loud I was being down here."  Nodding to the Legion's bust she continued, "I'd rather nail the structure down first before carving everything else out. And no, doing it slowly will take forever with this leftover Palladium. "

Samara quirked an eyebrow, "You stole this from the cargo hold?"

"Grabbed a few chunks we didn't melt down for fuel. I'll just throw these in the furnace when the time comes."

Delicately turning another exquisitely detailed sculpture in her hand, a disappointed frown unwittingly graced itself upon the Justicar's face. "That would be a shameless waste of effort. You've made such simple portraiture pieces and yet they feel so alive."

Jack's response was both reassuring and worrisome. "Practice makes perfect, I can always make more."

Lifting her chin at the cart of excess palladium by the wall, Samara asked, "May I try?"

The request had piqued Jack's curiosity. "Be my guest."

Samara lifted a small boulder with a biotic field and held it aloft in the air. Thin layers of blue energy rippled gently around her, undulating through the rock. When Samara increased the pressure inside her biotic shield, the edges of the rock began to soften and warp like melted plastic on a hot plate until the boulder moulded itself into the familiar planes and angles of a cityscape.

"Accuracy to the Nos Astra skyline: 97.63%," cited Legion.

Wide-eyed and slack-jawed like a child seeing a train set for the first time, Jack leapt off her cot and peered closer at the buildings.  The details on every window, balcony, and starport had been fleshed out - she could even see scrap pebbles from the boulder shaped into tiny cars that floated in circles around the skyscrapers. "You goddamn show off ... You've got to show me how to do that sometime."

Hook, line and sinker. The Justicar smiled demurely, "There is much you can learn to do in a few centuries of solitude, although from what I've seen you may be a fast learner."

The stars were practically twinkling in Jack's eyes, "You'll show me how to make stuff like this then?"

Samara nodded as she set her masterpiece down on the other end of the engineering sub-deck, "Gladly, if you would tell me how exactly you came about this new preoccupation of yours?"

Jack closed her eyes and tilted head back in thought, "Got bored one day trying to make a rock explode without lifting or throwing it. Kept trying until a third of it blew off. Started to look like the ship and kept chipping away at it until it looked right in my head. I needed something to kill time with, I just didn't think it'd become a regular hobby."

Albeit Samara had given up her old life as a mother, seeing Jack being enthusiastic about art reminded her of her children in more happier times. Forever and a day ago, Samara and her family once spent a week on the sandy shores of Thessia where she and her children built sandcastles to play in.

It was with great restraint that she removed herself from her brief respite into nostalgia and focused on the weight in her hand that kept her grounded in the present.  "Can you tell me about this one of the Quarian?"

"Was hammering away on that one from memory until Fishbowl came down with a shotgun asking about the noise," Jack replied, "So I gave her a work in progress of Shepard, had her sitting off to the side and finished her sculpt in a couple hours. I do another piece for her, and she said she'd try to keep the engineers from poking their noses in my business. Flashlight here was watching the whole time in a corner so she wouldn't see him."

Jack's expression sombered a bit before she took a breath and continued, "Been thinking about the way I've been using my biotics up to now. For all the ways I know how to make stuff blow up, I never actually tried making anything before."

"Read something about a couple old Earthborn sculptors I liked. One guy saw an object trapped in stone, and carved away to set it free. The other guy just chooses a block of rock and chops off whatever he doesn't need. I tend to remember every face of those who made an impression on me, which includes a good chunk of people on this ship."

Nodding to the table, Jack added, "Getting faster at this though. By then maybe those idiots upstairs will stop trying to spy on me. Strip lip's been tip-toeing around quite a bit lately. I can practically smell potstickers and salty noodles on her breath-"

"Like right now?" chuckled Kasumi, a cheshire grin plastered to her face as she materialized out of stealth mode by the staircase.

Jack narrowed her eyes as she wondered for how long the thief had been spying her, "I'll get to work on yours next. Just get me that bottle of sc-"

Kasumi produced a bottle of scotch in one hand and a silver tray of piping hot potstickers and shio ramen in the other. "- I've got an old brandy lined up if you can also sculpt in the man in the holo I sent you."

Jack resisted the urge to drool and instead turned away, mumbling "Yeah yeah, sure sure" before fading off into an inner monologue about charging viewing fees to see her progress work.

Taking it as his cue to leave, the Geth made one more query, "We request further study of this palladium replica of this platform in the AI core." Rolling her eyes, Jack waved her hand dismissively at Legion before wolfing down the remains of her submarine and reaching for the bowl of ramen, "Fine, take it - and no mass producing!"

While Jack was slurping away at her noodles, Kasumi sat on the corner of the table looking bemused. Samara was well aware of how little the convict tolerated visitors and decided to make her first move on the thief: "I take it you're not just here to watch her work are you?"

"Actually," the corners of Kasumi's lips lifted in delight, "I've got some good news for you Jack. I managed to sell that sculpt of the Scion!"

Jack nearly spat out the soup she had been sipping from the bowl, "WHAT?!"

Kasumi leaned back slightly, her voice taking a matter-of-fact tone as if she was discussing the weather,  "I found a buyer who was obsessed about the Collectors. Those who seen them never lived to tell the tale, so I put together a little vid of Horizon we took from Tali's friend as proof, and name dropped Shepard as the icing on the cake."

"And how much did you get out of this?" Jack raised a suspicious eyebrow as she wiped her mouth with the back of her hand.

"Forty-five million credits, ten percent I'm taking as commission of course." Kasumi's smile grew wider as she tossed the biotic a credit chit, "The rest you can do as - uh oh."

"Now wait just a minute there!" A stern voice shot through the air as every head turned towards the staircase. Miranda marched towards them like a woman on a mission.

"Well sh*t if it isn't the cheerleader," glowered Jack as she polished off some potstickers on the tray.

"I heard everything from Yeoman Kelly and the engineers," the Cerberus officer snapped, "Just what do you think you are doing with our minerals Jack?"

The Justicar was first to speak the obvious, "I believe she was sculpting them with her biotics."

"SCULPTING?!"

Before Miranda opened her mouth to make another retort, Jack cut into the argument, "Look precious, we strip-mined so much Palladium we were practically over-capacity. And see this? " The convict dangled the credit chit from her fingers as if she's tempting a ravenous cat with a toy mouse, "More creds than we need to fix this ship for the time being. All from a few scrap pieces of rock that would've sold for a couple digits on Omega."

Miranda's eyes narrowed to slits. "And what exactly is in it for you?"

"Not much." Jack nonchalantly ran a hand through the frizz on her scalp,"I get to kill time, and Happy Feet over there gets to buy me a round. Doesn't take a genius to know we were hard up on creds to fix this ship ever since we got back from Omega 4."  Dropping the credit chit into Miranda's hand, Jack rose off her cot and trotted upstairs towards the elevator, "So think of this as me doing you a favour."

At the top of the stairs Jack called out, "Hey, anyone feel like a drink or two?"

Kasumi raised her hand holding the bottle of scotch, "Right here!" Pulling Samara to her side, the thief convinced the Justicar to tag along with the promise of vintage Asari honey mead to remind her of home.

As they left, the Cerberus officer was left speechless and agitated, staring daggers into the floor on the sub engineering deck wondering how she'll clean up the mess Jack left behind, and ultimately decided against it in favour of dealing with more pressing financial priorities. 

In the meantime as the Normandy's elevator crawled its way up to the third deck, Jack leaned over to Kasumi and whispered, "So how much are we going to get for the Praetorian?"

The End.

Modifié par axl99, 01 septembre 2010 - 11:01 .

[Mondo47]

Ha! More of Jack the Artist! Loving it! I'm gonna have to work some of this into my little stories... try and accomodate the bits of everyone else's Jacks that I like.