20813 réponses à ce sujet

[FenrisDeSolar]

 Guuuuys~! I wrote a fanfic about Jack, and I figured I'd post the links here, just in case you wanna read it! :3
You can find it here, or here.

[Mondo47]

Just got this from Iain Shepard's jaunt through Overlord - he's just "pushed the button" here... I thought that when the lights flare out Jack looks adorably worried

[Collider]

royceclemens wrote...

@Mondo

Well, I've noticed that the LIs with the biggest following are Liara and Tali... And they're the two confirmed virgins. Gee, I'd like to think this was a coincidence, but sadly, I think it's not. To be absolutely fair, BioWare has excelled in making everyone who plays their games feel like the most specialest little boy or girl in the world. This is the logical conclusion, though whether they want to feel like the center of the universe through being the inital sexual experience for one of the characters or if they don't feel manly unless they can collect virginities like kids collect baseball cards, I will leave to better folk than myself.

Or it could be the writing or the acting, but given york's 4chan conversations that went to the tune of "Alpha-Males don't take used goods," I'll never be able to say for certain.

It's very easy to confuse correlation with causation. It's a common logical fallacy. It's very easy and does not require extensive research.

I am the head of the most popular Tali group on this forum. Just about all of the reasons why Tali is theorized to popular that are concocted by those not part of the fandom are false.

Here's why.

"Jack appeals to her fans because they are uneducated and juvenile delinquents just like her. Also, they are pedophilic because Jack calls herself a little girl, that's part of their fantasy and why they romance her. They want to be the man who swoops in and saves the broken & confused girl. It's a misogynistic power trip."

Now, does person seem like someone who has hung out with Jack fans, have asked why they like Jack, and has spent time with the fandom? No. This guy looked at the book cover and thought he knew everything about the book. He hasn't spent nearly enough time with the fandom, if at all.

Go into the Liara thread and tell them Liara is popular because she is a virgin. See what kind of reactions you get. Just about no one will agree. And most would probably be offended.

Similarly, I am the head of  the most popular Tali group and I have literally never seen virginity or sexual inexperience as reason for she is liked.

Now let's go back to the horrid quote I conjured up. It is offensive. It is offensive and assumes things about the Jack fandom that are clearly not true to anyone who has bothered to spend time with her fans. It's one thing to criticize a character, which doesn't even matter to me, and it's another thing with the fanbases themselves. We know, as Jack fans and regulars of this thread, that the quote is false, and would be frustrating to see someone say that when we know it's not true.

I only bring this up again because this episode has happened before. The Jack thread has a history of insulting other fandoms or otherwise painting them in a negative light. Unsurprisingly this is usually by people who haven't bothered to spend time with the fanbase they are deriding or misconceptualizing. People I've spoken to about this list this as the reason why they don't go into the Jack thread. Jack is exceptionally popular among the Tali fandom (I've met a couple people at most in my group & the late thread who didn't absolutely adore her),  but some of us don't go here because we don't feel welcome.

Of course, I'm not pretending this is a big deal for me, or a dire issue. Just have to say, be careful of assuming things about the fanbases when one hasn't spent time with them and asked them of their own opinions. Because if one doesn't, they are probably wrong.

Modifié par Collider, 02 septembre 2010 - 12:55 .

[tommyt_1994]

Collider wrote...

royceclemens wrote...

@Mondo

Well, I've noticed that the LIs with the biggest following are Liara and Tali... And they're the two confirmed virgins. Gee, I'd like to think this was a coincidence, but sadly, I think it's not. To be absolutely fair, BioWare has excelled in making everyone who plays their games feel like the most specialest little boy or girl in the world. This is the logical conclusion, though whether they want to feel like the center of the universe through being the inital sexual experience for one of the characters or if they don't feel manly unless they can collect virginities like kids collect baseball cards, I will leave to better folk than myself.

Or it could be the writing or the acting, but given york's 4chan conversations that went to the tune of "Alpha-Males don't take used goods," I'll never be able to say for certain.

It's very easy to confuse correlation with causation. It's a common logical fallacy. It's very easy and does not require extensive research.

I am the head of the most popular Tali group on this forum. Just about all of the reasons why Tali is theorized to popular that are concocted by those not part of the fandom are false.

Here's why.

"Jack appeals to her fans because they are uneducated and juvenile delinquents just like her. Also, they are pedophilic because Jack calls herself a little girl, that's part of their fantasy and why they romance her. They want to be the man who swoops in and saves the broken & confused girl. It's a misogynistic power trip."

Now, does person seem like someone who has hung out with Jack fans, have asked why they like Jack, and has spent time with the fandom? No. This guy looked at the book cover and thought he knew everything about the book. He hasn't spent nearly enough time with the fandom, if at all.

Go into the Liara thread and tell them Liara is popular because she is a virgin. See what kind of reactions you get. Just about no one will agree. And most would probably be offended.

Similarly, I am the head of  the most popular Tali group and I have literally never seen virginity or sexual inexperience as reason for she is liked.

Now let's go back to the horrid quote I conjured up. It is offensive. It is offensive and assumes things about the Jack fandom that are clearly not true to anyone who has bothered to spend time with her fans. It's one thing to criticize a character, which doesn't even matter to me, and it's another thing with the fanbases themselves. We know, as Jack fans and regulars of this thread, that the quote is false, and would be frustrating to see someone say that when we know it's not true.

I only bring this up again because this episode has happened before. The Jack thread has a history of insulting other fandoms or otherwise painting them in a negative light. Unsurprisingly this is usually by people who haven't bothered to spend time with the fanbase they are deriding or misconceptualizing. People I've spoken to about this list this as the reason why they don't go into the Jack thread. Jack is exceptionally popular among the Tali fandom (I've met a couple people at most in my group & the late thread who didn't absolutely adore her),  but some of us don't go here because we don't feel welcome.

Of course, I'm not pretending this is a big deal for me, or a dire issue. Just have to say, be careful of assuming things about the fanbases when one hasn't spent time with them and asked them of their own opinions. Because if one doesn't, they are probably wrong.

I agree with the lot of this post. While I've never had my head bitten off from voicing my opinion, (I dont do this too often because my opinions change like that hands on a clock when it comes to this game) others have, like Mondo. She traveled into the Miranda thread, and as she stated was berated for voicing her opinion in a non-troll like fashion. I mean has anyone ever called Mondo a troll? Im sure she stated her opinions politely. But even with all this, she was berated(apparently I wasn't there) quite harshly. So Mondo's, along with any other un-biased soul who witnessed the argument, opinion was dwarfed, at least partially, about that particular fanbase.

In regards to Tali, her fans do get an unwelcome amount of bashing and hate, hate that has been fabricated from small incidents, that do not reflect the fanbase as a whole. I lurked there for a while due to my appreciation for the character/romance arc, and the Tali fans were no where near the "rabid chicken toe-lovin virgins", like they're often described as in other threads.

And a last little note here, from what I have seen of this thread (which is a lot from both lurking/posting), no one has ever entered this thread, offered their polite opinion, be it an agreeing one or not, and been flamed/verbally molested/gotten their heads ripped off etc. The regulars in this thread are quite civil and polite, and no one has ever said they weren't, and had proof to back it up. Again this is me speaking from the 300 and some odd pages I've been around this thread.

Modifié par tommyt_1994, 02 septembre 2010 - 01:49 .

[MHRazer]

tommyt_1994 wrote...

And a last little note here, from what I have seen of this thread (which is a lot from both lurking/posting), no one has ever entered this thread, offered their polite opinion, be it an agreeing one or not, and been flamed/verbally molested/gotten their heads ripped off etc. The regulars in this thread are quite civil and polite, and no one has ever said they weren't, and had proof to back it up. Again this is me speaking from the 300 and some odd pages I've been around this thread.

Speaking from the 557 pages I've been around, you're correct. I may not be a regular poster like some others, but I really don't think we're out to get other fanbases. Overly sensitive members of said fanbases may take differing opinions that way, and of course there is the odd stereotype thrown around (often in jest) but nobody is going to scare away another member because they happen to like another character. (Though if they come here with the intention of discussing only their character of choice and not Jack, why are they here?)

That said, that was an excellent post Collider. A lot of truth in there.

[Mondo47]

Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa (sweet child o' mine - as I am wont to say occasionally ). Now let's not all get confrontational here. It was me that opened this particular can of worms, so I'll hold my nose and try and swallow them all before anyone gets too bent out of shape. Take a bullet for Alistair, take a bullet for the thread, *grumblegrouse*

Going back to my original post that started this little discussion, I underlined the fact I was not trying to point an accusitory finger and say that all Tali or Liara fans were basement-dwelling virgins that play D&D and drink enough Mountain Dew to make their ****** glow in the dark. No ma'am. What I was wondering out loud was whether rather old chains of mortality in society had any kind of effect on character popularity. We all pretty much agreed too that it was a very big topic, that to be debated with any kind of depth would probably derail the thread.

What started it all though was the fact that my (admittedly a little inflamatory because I called her a snotty cow) post in the Miranda thread was assailed with firebombs because I suggested that Miranda had had a previous intimate relationship with Jacob. This did not suit the tide there, who called me an idiot for even entertaining the notion that "The Priiize" had stormed the gates of her love palace. No no no - for only Shepard may do such things. Once again, I'm not saying that the Miri thread is filled with morons because they didn't agree with me - everyone after all is entitled to their own opinion - what I was wondering was if there was some societal programming at play here; that a valid, or "good" romantic plot (be it in a book, a tv series, a movie, or the Mass Effect games) is still somehow feeding on a concept that only a "good" girl makes for a "good" romance... some vile old 1950's morality that puts women squarely in the kitchen and under their husband's thumbs.

Now, Axl pointed out with laserlike precision that some people would not even try to form a bond with Jack because they just don't want to put up with her sh*t. Perfectly valid. I wish more people would, then they might understand something more than this perception of the character as some kind of foulmouthed sociopath. But, on another branch of the tree, I could perhaps see a corelation between Jack's attitude and appearance being contrary to the outdated romantic ideal mentioned above. But... that's not what we're discussing here because we'd agreed it was likely to hole our thread below the waterline.

I think what we have here is less of a question about societal models, but societies themselves; meaning the various fanthreads (microcosms that they are). I think you'll have to agree, Col, that these threads are not generally receptive to ideas that stray from the norm. My experience with the Miranda thread, while not painting a picture of everyone there, has left me with a sour taste in my mouth. I won't go back. The thing is, I say something about Miranda being a snotty cow in here, and there's a chance someone from over there will come in here and deride me (and thus everyone in the thread) for "hating" on her. It's like not being able to call my neighbour a b*tch because she lets her dog crap on my lawn in case she has a glass to the wall - my kids might love her dog though, but all she hears is me complaining about her and the f*cking dog.

The thing is, it's not just them. It's us too. We do it here - we must do because every so often someone comes in here and parrots that we're so unreceptive to their ideas that they don't want to come back! Now I like to think we're a pretty smart bunch; we round on the idiots that come in here and troll a single line of Jack-hate and then vanish again, but I'd hardly think that we're the sort to build pyres because someone dropped by and thought (quite reasonably) that maybe everything Jack says is a line of bullsh*t created to make her sound more badass than she actually is (as an off the cuff idea I've heard before). But, that perception of us has to come from somewhere... just like I have my perception of the Miridians. Personally, I don't think the Talimancers are that bad a bunch; I've not seen them lambasting people as f*ckwits on the odd occasion I've drifted by their threads in the past. Each to their own. I'm not gonna come into your house and tell you the carpet sucks. Ok, I might tease you about it though because that's the kind of person I am - it's all goodnatured though. The fact that there is always someone with a proverbial glass to the wall though means that any negative discussion of characters or their fans runs a risk of being reported back to the masses and used to paint a negative image of the people involved. All they're doing is repeating a person's opinion and in turn perpetuating an idea that Fanbase X gripes a lot or is (on the other hand) mean to folk. Opinions only get changed through experience. Perpetuating the myth as reality ain't helpin' here.

I think what's needed is a little more awareness that things we say can be misconstrued, misunderstood, or just plain not agreed with everywhere we go. And thicker skins. Come on, lets all be fair, we can seriously leap to Jack's defense when someone comes in with either a contrary argument or a line of trolling. Knowing the difference between the two is important. On the other hand though, if people are going to sit on the sidelines and listen and judge from there, they're not going to get the whole picture.

I think what's needed here is a little more interaction between fanbases. It is possible to like two characters, or four, or six, or eleventy. Sure, we have our favorites. I think if Tali fans (or Miranda fans, or Garrus fans, or whoever-fans) came in here and said "Hi, I'm a Tali fan, I really like Jack too" no-one is going to turn around and say "F*ck off back to your migrant fleet!" Everyone is entitled to an opinion though, even if it runs contrary to the norm in a place. Now I think, on the whole, everyone who regularly posts in here is respectful of others. It's the listening at the wall with the glass that has given the other impression. So, I say this now (excuse me while my eyes glow and I ASSUME DIRECT CONTROL of the thread) - I personally welcome other fans of Jack who happen to like other characters too to drop by and say hi. Come on in, 'ave a cuppa tea, meet the missus, as that little worm said in Labyrinth. I'm sure everyone else would feel the same way too. But, and here's the caveat, people here all have their own opinions too - they might not agree with you about some things. We might not like your other favorite character at all. That doesn't mean we won't like you either, though. And chances are, some of us will like your other favorite character here. There might be some ingrained opinions about other fanbases too based on experiences like the one I had - you can change those, though. Just have a slightly thicker skin, and a little patience (same goes for us too, guys). Then opinions can change.

Trolls, ah, we can all break out the flamethrowers for those. They kinda stand out

Now, peace(nik) out, everyone.

Modifié par Mondo47, 02 septembre 2010 - 02:14 .

[MHRazer]

So.... Jack.

We ever decided who we thought did Jack's tattoos for her? Can't be an ordinary run-of-the-mill prison artist. They're too awesome for that. Plus, it would probably have to be someone Jack trusts at least moderately to let them go at her with a needle for the absurd amount of time it would take to get that full-body look done.

She probably didn't get them all at once, but they're all the same style and very coherent... probably the same artist. Think Jack knows some awesome grizzled tattoo guy in a shack on some backwater planet somewhere she goes every time she needs some new ink?

Modifié par MHRazer, 02 septembre 2010 - 02:15 .

[Mondo47]

MHRazer wrote...

So.... Jack.

We ever decided who we thought did Jack's tattoos for her? Can't be an ordinary run-of-the-mill prison artist. They're too awesome for that. Plus, it would probably have to be someone Jack trusts at least moderately to let them go at her with a needle for the absurd amount of time it would take to get that full-body look done.

She probably didn't get them all at once, but they're all the same style and very coherent... probably the same artist. Think Jack knows some awesome grizzled tattoo guy in a shack on some backwater planet somewhere she goes every time she needs some new ink?

I think they're the work of several artists myself. As coherent as they are, I think it has more to do with how they work as a whole. I've had an idea or two of my own along those lines...

[Collider]

I agree with Mondo, probably several artists. After all, Jack is always on the move. Having to go back to the same guy or gal for her tattoos wouldn't really work for her lifestyle.

[adriano_c]

Mondo47 wrote...

"F*ck off back to your migrant fleet!"

This, I like.

[adriano_c]

MHRazer wrote...

So.... Jack.

We ever decided who we thought did Jack's tattoos for her? Can't be an ordinary run-of-the-mill prison artist. They're too awesome for that. Plus, it would probably have to be someone Jack trusts at least moderately to let them go at her with a needle for the absurd amount of time it would take to get that full-body look done.

She probably didn't get them all at once, but they're all the same style and very coherent... probably the same artist. Think Jack knows some awesome grizzled tattoo guy in a shack on some backwater planet somewhere she goes every time she needs some new ink?

Maybe they're those self-applied, wet-and-rub kind?!

[axl99]

Self-applied, wet and rub tattoos all over Jack's body?

Oh... oh my. [mymindshallnotwander,mymindshallnotwander,mymindshallnotwander.... Oh wow....]

Modifié par axl99, 02 septembre 2010 - 02:39 .

[NICKjnp]

This is what school does... you spend all day there and when you get on the social site.... you don't know what the hell is going on.

[MHRazer]

Collider wrote...

I agree with Mondo, probably several artists. After all, Jack is always on the move. Having to go back to the same guy or gal for her tattoos wouldn't really work for her lifestyle.

I just have a hard time picturing Jack trusting multiple people enough to get her in that vulnerable a position. Sitting or laying, no weapons or armor [as if she wears any], with a needle with who knows what in it. For a few hours at a time... maybe her guard gets lowered, easier to get at... she's very distrustful, I don't think it would take much more than that to send up flags in her head. 

You're right that she moves around a lot but her tattoos are clearly important to her... I could see her having one trusted artist (my crazy hut-dwelling backwater dude or Mondo's renowned asari artist) she goes out of her way to visit whenever she's nearby. 

I'm no quickfic writer, but Shepard takes the Normandy into some remote system for a routine mission and Jack barrels into his quarters more excited than ever... forces him to detour under threat of bodily harm... "Tattoo time!" 

Modifié par MHRazer, 02 septembre 2010 - 02:45 .

[Collider]

Really great point razer. Something I need to think about. I wonder how much freedom Jack had to move around the galaxy.

[MHRazer]

Collider wrote...

Really great point razer. Something I need to think about. I wonder how much freedom Jack had to move around the galaxy.

Maybe that's why she hijacked the military ship from the parade 

[royceclemens]

Why did no one tell me Paci became a moderator?

Congratulations!

Modifié par royceclemens, 02 septembre 2010 - 03:41 .