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[Epantiras]

Pacifien wrote...
2) She's got a bit of Zaeed in her. Shepard's a badass, and she wants to tell him stories that prove she's just a much a badass. Or maybe that her previous adventures make her just as worthy to be on that ship as any of the other "best of the best" squadmates he's picked up.

Be careful Pacifien! If you mention both Jack and Zaeed in the same statement, the universe will overdose on awesome and explode!

Oh wait, I just did it!! :innocent:

[MHRazer]

...mortaL wrote...

ah crap i give up.

finding and anwsering all the questions in this thread since page 1 is just not going to happen.
but.. i made it to page 214 before i gave up, i guess that's something.

anyhow ...
regarding the possible extent to which she exaggerates her "crimes" .. i always thought that she does, at least to some extent. probably part of her **** off routine, of course that doesn't work with shep but still.

by the way.. some impressive fan art around these parts .. *claps*

The last hundred or so pages have been filled with amazing fanfics, that I'm pretty sure I remember the first few hundred lacking. I actually remember us talking at one point about how nobody ever made any Jackfics. You'd probably like to read through them; I don't think we've had a bad one. I'm not going to try to list all of the authors because I know I'll unintentionally forget someone, but Mondo and Sundown have a lot of great ones in their blogs, and Urdaniel on fanfiction.net HERE.




I don't think Jack exaggerates with her stories. For reasons already stated, mainly that she doesn't need to, and she wouldn't care anyway. Maybe some inaccuracies, but she doesn't go into great detail so I think they're overall accurate.

Modifié par MHRazer, 02 septembre 2010 - 06:33 .

[axl99]

[MHRazer]

Epantiras wrote...

Pacifien wrote...
2) She's got a bit of Zaeed in her. Shepard's a badass, and she wants to tell him stories that prove she's just a much a badass. Or maybe that her previous adventures make her just as worthy to be on that ship as any of the other "best of the best" squadmates he's picked up.

Be careful Pacifien! If you mention both Jack and Zaeed in the same statement, the universe will overdose on awesome and explode!

Oh wait, I just did it!! :innocent:

I've never used Zaeed before (Ironically, his tough-guy routine has never played that well on me before now) but I've been taking him and Jack everywhere on my first ever ME1 import playthrough. It is quite awesome.

Modifié par MHRazer, 02 septembre 2010 - 06:44 .

[Pacifien]

I really do like Zaeed, even though his skillset doesn't make him as useful to me as some other squadmates. He is one of the better squadmates for some good comments during missions, along with Garrus, Grunt, Jack and Mordin.

Don't even much care that he doesn't have a dialogue wheel. I'll take over a dozen different stories versus, say, being told about calibrations. Though, yes, ideally you'd get a dialogue wheel with the extent of dialogue that someone like Zaeed, Kasumi, or Mordin supplies.

Have always had issues with using Jack effectively. Sometimes she is a powerhouse, sometimes she plays dead early on. Now with the new geth shotgun and my soldier playthrough where I'm a one man army who doesn't even need squadmates, I'll take Jack everywhere so I can hear her comments.

[Pacifien]

Epantiras wrote...
Be careful Pacifien! If you mention both Jack and Zaeed in the same statement, the universe will overdose on awesome and explode!

I believe axl99 has just provided us with the universe exploding with the awesomeness that is Jack.

Ooh, a pic of Grunt, Jack, and Zaeed. The universe will fall back in on itself and explode all over again.

[MHRazer]

Pacifien wrote...
Have always had issues with using Jack effectively. Sometimes she is a powerhouse, sometimes she plays dead early on. Now with the new geth shotgun and my soldier playthrough where I'm a one man army who doesn't even need squadmates, I'll take Jack everywhere so I can hear her comments.

The geth shotgun has the added advantage of actually making Jack good in combat, too. Though I still do switch her to the new pistol pretty frequently so she'll stay back a bit farther. 

[Epantiras]

Pacifien wrote...

Epantiras wrote...
Be careful Pacifien! If you mention both Jack and Zaeed in the same statement, the universe will overdose on awesome and explode!

I believe axl99 has just provided us with the universe exploding with the awesomeness that is Jack.

Ooh, a pic of Grunt, Jack, and Zaeed. The universe will fall back in on itself and explode all over again.

Once I've drawn Wrex, Jack and Zaeed in the same pic, does it qualify?

JohnnyDollar wrote...
Apparently, quite a few Jack fans think
that Jack embellishes her stories.  I wonder if some of the Jack fans
are embellishing Jack instead.  Perhaps pretending that she is not the
criminal that she really is.  Maybe some of the Jack fans still want to
believe in the dated falsehood that a woman can't be a cold blooded
murderer, only a man can.  Perhaps sweep it under the rug.  

I think Jack is one of my favourite squatmembers ALSO because she's a criminal! I always tend to like renegade-like characters - I think "evil" is not the right word here.
Also, that's one of the reasons why I'm not very enthusiast about her romance scene, it's like she suddenly shifted from a wild tiger to a pet cat.

[Pacifien]

While I think Jack does embellish her stories, I in no way think she's not a criminal. Nor do I think she isn't capable of some serious ****. The reaction Warden Kuril and the prisoner have for her is evidence enough that she's not playing with her biotics.

Perhaps it's more accurate for me to say that I think Jack is selective with what she tells you in her stories. For instance, I recently told someone I had been to North Korea. You can take what you know about North Korea and come up with your own ideas of what I might been doing there. Odds are what you think happened is far more interesting than what actually happened.

Like Jack mentioning she stole a Turian military vessel. Sounds like that could have been a glorious story, but maybe she only had control of it for all of five minutes and the Turians sent her off to prison.

Don't think the developers mean to be so ambiguous about it, though. If she says she stole a military vessel, she stole it, and she likely made it count.

Modifié par Pacifien, 02 septembre 2010 - 07:17 .

[Urdaniel]

Trust JD to lay it out, all bare-faced and stark, and call things as they are.  In my opinion, anyway.  And I say the preceding in the most complimentary way possible.  I'd have to agree with this assessment, even though it's a little uncomfortable as realizations go.

And just to touch on a point raised a few pages back (about a lot of gamers not wanting to deal with Jack's baggage), I've said before that the preliminary looks at her character put me off initially.  But the whole mess of conlicted emotion on display during Pragia, especially the nervous exchange just before landing and most especially the expression on her face as she presses the button on the detonator made me WANT to deal with the baggage.  Call it white-knightism or a good-samaritan-charity-project impulse, but to me that expression screamed "I want someone to give a damn simply because they do, and not because they want or need something from me."  Only the most anal-retentive "lawful" (in the old pen and paper role-playing game alignment sense) personality could fail to be moved by that to some degree (even if only a little).  At least that's what I tell myself anyway.  <shrug>  As always, just my two cents.

[Mondo47]

When I mentioned that idea of Jack sexing-up her stories, I never really drew my own line under it. While I don't think she blows anything she tells Shepard out of proportion, there is an element of her pushing him away (or trying to at least) in telling him these things... so maybe the idea at least of her giving a story a little more scope isn't beyond feasibility (particularly in her stories of how she deals with people based on her "feelings").

I don't really hold any illusions that Jack isn't as bad as she's been though. She's a killer; she's killed people for crossing her, getting in her way, and most likely for just being in the wrong place at the wrong time. She's a criminal, responsible or part of any number of crimes that we would not want to be done to us. Jack's been a bad girl... though to me, this doesn't mean she is one.

Jack wants to know who Jack is, and in her efforts to find where she fits and who she might actually be, she's done a lot of morally-reprehensible things. At the same time, she's also been a victim of some seriously morally-reprehensible sh*t... yep, so were plenty of other serial killers - it may not excuse their behaviour, but it lets you see how a monster was made in the first place. Jack though is not psychotic; she doesn't kill for simple entertainment or power or desire, she kills those that get between her and a goal, be that the contents of a bank vault or the exit door. It's why the truly disingenuous assertion that "Jack's a headcase" falls flat on its face. She just looks after number one, because number one is all she can really count on to have her back. I think part of why Jack melts so for Shepard is the fact she suddenly sees that someone else has her back too... she doesn't have to be so on-guard all the time, and she can let go of some of the anger, some of the violence, and the Jack who has always been there under it all, can start to come out. It makes sense for her to become so emotional to me because she comes to Shepard with no defenses; naked for Jack (which is why rejecting her at the eleventh hour has to be the most f*cked up thing you can do in the game). I don't think her showing some emotional sensitivity divests her of her edge - it's still there, after all, she's not going to forget how to f*ck you up bigtime just because Shep kisses her - it just means she has someone she can finally let her guard down around... which to me is really what she's always needed. She's not going to find out who she really is inside just repeating the same mistakes over and over again that got her banged up in Purgatory in the first place.

[MHRazer]

JohnnyDollar wrote...
Apparently, quite a few Jack fans think that Jack embellishes her stories.  I wonder if some of the Jack fans are embellishing Jack instead.  Perhaps pretending that she is not the criminal that she really is.  Maybe some of the Jack fans still want to believe in the dated falsehood that a woman can't be a cold blooded murderer, only a man can.  Perhaps sweep it under the rug.  

We say that it's not her fault.  She's a product of unethical experimentation and abuse.  Yeah, well a lot of serial killers were abused and sexually molested when they were children.  Does this excuse the decisions and actions that they have made in their life?  No.  Is it ok?  No, but we can pretend that it's ok.  We say that she doesn't want to be like that, though(even though we don't really know that).  We say it's ok, she can redeem herself.  Sure, so can any other murderer, thief, arsonist, etc. in this world.  Does that make it all better?  No.   

It sort of reminds me of what Mondo was talking about in the Miranda thread.  They didn't like it that Miranda had a relationship with Jacob.  They wanted her to themselves.  In the Jack thread, we want to pretend that Jack is not a malevolent character, so that our benevolent Shepard can have a relationship with her, and the two can be magically compatible with one another.  When actually, your Shepard of paragon virtue, should be looking for the next prison to drop Jack off at.

Speaking for myself, I fully realize she's a massive criminal. But I do not think she is evil at all; there are actually a few points where she shows a hint of compassion. So I'm not sure a Paragon Shepard would necessarily ship her straight to prison... he's seen a LOT of ****, and knows how the galaxy works. He would know that there are much worse people out there than Jack (not criminal record-wise, but actual person-wise) and her commitment to helping save the galaxy from the Collectors/Reapers despite it being a "Suicide" mission shows that. She could have bailed the second they docked on Omega, but didn't. People can play their Paragon Shepard differently, perhaps more law-abiding, but my Paragon Shepard is a Spectre who doesn't need to follow the laws, and would believe in giving a second chance to someone who shows that commitment. 

It is not her fault what happened to her, and to a degree not her fault initially in getting caught up in gangs and pirates after escaping. We don't have much information to go on, but I'd imagine her options were limited to "go help these people who picked me up drifting about in space" or "they kill me." It is her fault for not breaking the cycle when she had a chance to (she must have at some point), and yeah, that makes her a killer. She'd call it a survivor, but either way. 

So yes, she's a cold-blooded killer with hundreds dead at her hands. But my Paragon Shepard has killed plenty of people too, and... wouldn't care. She is on his side now, fighting the good fight, and isn't a bad person at heart. If she reverted back to piracy and drugs and the like? Different story, but that part hasn't played out yet. 

Also from a completely different point, I would imagine it is difficult for anybody to easily picture Jack and relate to her as the worst serial killer/destructive force in the galaxy. I'm quite sure I've never met anyone like that in real life, so it's hard to really grasp someone like that. 

[axl99]

[Blah. Late to the argument. Meh.]

Also speaking for myself, Jack got herself thrown into the slammer plenty enough whenever she isn't running with criminals or running from Cerberus agents/bounty hunters. Jack isn't always justified in the things she does, but it does fit in her survivalist logic. And if saving the galaxy doesn't earn her a reprieve in the eyes of the authorities, then it can't be helped even if the suicide mission was more or less a death sentence to begin with.

Shepard falling in love with Jack is no different than him/her falling in love with an assassin, a Justicar with questionable morals, or high ranking officers of a terrorist organization. Tali, through no fault of her own, has to bear with the knowledge her father committed a terrible war crime and may as well have committed perjury in front of her own people. Garrus abandoned his C-Sec post to gun down criminals in the terminus systems, taking the law into his own hands is still more or less a criminal offense.

Modifié par axl99, 02 septembre 2010 - 08:21 .

[MHRazer]

axl99 wrote...
And if saving the galaxy doesn't earn her a reprieve in the eyes of the authorities, then it can't be helped even if the suicide mission was more or less a death sentence to begin with.

It's like the ultimate community service sentence! 

[axl99]

MHRazer wrote...

axl99 wrote...
And if saving the galaxy doesn't earn her a reprieve in the eyes of the authorities, then it can't be helped even if the suicide mission was more or less a death sentence to begin with.

It's like the ultimate community service sentence! 

YES! I do believe it is! And guess what? She gets to do it over again in the next game! Think they'll let her off on good behaviour?

[Shadow555r]

Mondo47 wrote...

When I mentioned that idea of Jack sexing-up her stories, I never really drew my own line under it. While I don't think she blows anything she tells Shepard out of proportion, there is an element of her pushing him away (or trying to at least) in telling him these things... so maybe the idea at least of her giving a story a little more scope isn't beyond feasibility (particularly in her stories of how she deals with people based on her "feelings").

I don't really hold any illusions that Jack isn't as bad as she's been though. She's a killer; she's killed people for crossing her, getting in her way, and most likely for just being in the wrong place at the wrong time. She's a criminal, responsible or part of any number of crimes that we would not want to be done to us. Jack's been a bad girl... though to me, this doesn't mean she is one.

Jack wants to know who Jack is, and in her efforts to find where she fits and who she might actually be, she's done a lot of morally-reprehensible things. At the same time, she's also been a victim of some seriously morally-reprehensible sh*t... yep, so were plenty of other serial killers - it may not excuse their behaviour, but it lets you see how a monster was made in the first place. Jack though is not psychotic; she doesn't kill for simple entertainment or power or desire, she kills those that get between her and a goal, be that the contents of a bank vault or the exit door. It's why the truly disingenuous assertion that "Jack's a headcase" falls flat on its face. She just looks after number one, because number one is all she can really count on to have her back. I think part of why Jack melts so for Shepard is the fact she suddenly sees that someone else has her back too... she doesn't have to be so on-guard all the time, and she can let go of some of the anger, some of the violence, and the Jack who has always been there under it all, can start to come out. It makes sense for her to become so emotional to me because she comes to Shepard with no defenses; naked for Jack (which is why rejecting her at the eleventh hour has to be the most f*cked up thing you can do in the game). I don't think her showing some emotional sensitivity divests her of her edge - it's still there, after all, she's not going to forget how to f*ck you up bigtime just because Shep kisses her - it just means she has someone she can finally let her guard down around... which to me is really what she's always needed. She's not going to find out who she really is inside just repeating the same mistakes over and over again that got her banged up in Purgatory in the first place.

But I believe Jack does kill for pleasure, maybe not often but sometimes. As she says during her loyalty mission. I still get warm sensations during a fight. Given her "up bringing" and how she was rewarded for killing the other kids I would say that stuck with her. To me some serious **** like that just doesnt leave a person. How do we know she's not a serial killer?