20813 réponses à ce sujet

[Gethforceone]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

MHRazer wrote...
That's not a Jack problem, it's a game design problem. (Probably a budget problem, more accurately)

Pretty much.

I dpn't think it was a budget thing.

[upsettingshorts]

But she'll be friendly with you if you sleep with her, Paragon path anyway. It's... weird. But then I don't claim to understand women.

[Epantiras]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

I don't want to be able to be friends with all of the squadmates. That sounds boring to me.

True, forcing a friendship on the player would be lame. In ME2, the only way not to be friends is not to do or fail someone's loyalty mission OR screw them during a confrontation scene (Jack/Miranda, Legion/Tali).

When I met Liara on Illium, I wanted to punch her on the face but my Femshep hugged her instead 9_9 now I'm a "Paragade Liara" fan, but I still don't like how the game gives you option in that scene.
However, at the end of the LotSB DLC you get the option to invite or NOT to invite her on the Normandy. So, even if you cannot have a clearly hostile relationship with her, you can keep it professional or friendly. Or continue the romance, but we're talking about being friendly here.

I look forward to the "hostile" relationships you can build with companions in Dragon Age 2... and cross my fingers that we'll be able to do the same in ME2.

[upsettingshorts]

JohnnyDollar wrote...
How so? You're cut off after the romance scene. How do you know sex is involved in the romance scene?

I don't, but it's not a reasonable assumption.

[Epantiras]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

But she'll be friendly with you if you sleep with her, Paragon path anyway. It's... weird. But then I don't claim to understand women.

Ahhh... men

the paragon path implies that Shepard is trying to help her. The renegade path, instead, implies that Shepard only wants to f**k her. That's the difference

[upsettingshorts]

That's not what I'm goin' for.

I want a Paragon, non-love interest path.

As in a positive relationship where ManShep doesn't need to be getting anything physical out of it?

But the game doesn't actually allow them, it seems.  

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 13 septembre 2010 - 07:33 .

[MHRazer]

yorkj86 wrote...

MHRazer wrote...

I can honestly say I would. Hair doesn't matter much to me, and she has a great build. (Dem eyes and all that, as well of course.) The tattoos are well-designed... but I'm not sure she'll look as awesome at 60. But at 24? Sure 

It's nice humans live to ~150 in the ME setting, then, isn't it.  The tattoos won't start to lose their shape and form until a little later. 

Really? I never knew that. I didn't read all the codexes in ME1 if that's where that was. 

Okay then, I'm not sure she'll look as awesome at 110 

JohnnyDollar wrote...

It's Jack's personality. FU, FO, and cuts you off. That's Jack. She don't want to be buddies with you. If you change that, you change the character.

I disagree, I think they could create additional dialog/relationship paths outside of "love" and "buddy-buddy." I think, if foregoing a romance, she could come to see a femshep as a sister-figure, and a maleshep as a brother-figure. The family she never had; someone she can depend on to be there for her, someone she likes and appreciates, yet doesn't want to get romantic. 

She would certainly still be resistant to that, just as she was with a romance, which is why it would still be in character. But it's still largely a front she puts up - it wouldn't be out of character to eventually come to appreciate someone else.

[upsettingshorts]

I do not have a problem with her character. I have a problem with the lack of character development for characters you do not engage in a romance with, but have an option to.

The reason it's weird is because it ends up seeming forced (for gameplay reasons) or intentional (she will only open up if she comes up to Shepards quarters to cuddle, or sleep together, or whatever they end up doing.  Since it's ambiguous).

It's probably a gameplay reason and not a character development.  It still feels unnatural.  Just like Garrus perpetually calibrating the main gun.  Same problem, different character - just to make it clear that it's not Jack I've got an issue with.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 13 septembre 2010 - 07:37 .

[Iwakura-Lain]

yorkj86 wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

That's not what I'm goin' for.

I want a Paragon, non-love interest path.

As in a positive relationship where ManShep doesn't need to be getting anything physical out of it?

But the game doesn't actually allow them, it seems.  

It's not unreasonable to ask for that.

From history, we know that Bioware has trouble balancing making a character a walking encyclopedia, and making her romance surprisingly difficult to avoid.  I'm speaking of Liara, of course.

For whatever reason, we're left to fill in the blanks using our creativity, for better, or for worse.

I was a Femshep, so romancing Jack wasn't in it to begin with. But I got the same brusk 'cut-off' at some point, where she simply doesn't want to talk any more (implying, softly, she isn't into girls). I was saddened by that, as I certainly wanted to develop a friendship with her, like a sister, as someone said. I hope for ME3 Bioware will at least allow a relationship with Jack that isn't just about sleeping with her or not.

[Epantiras]

Upsettingshorts wrote...
It's probably a gameplay reason and not a character development.  It still feels unnatural.  Just like Garrus perpetually calibrating the main gun.  Same problem, different character - just to make it clear that it's not Jack I've got an issue with.

Yes, this is definitely a gameplay reason :-( Bioware gave us more badass squadmates in ME2, but did not spend enough time developing them.

I'm afraid it's because they didn't want to scare the FPS players away.
/sarcasm

[Epantiras]

Iwakura-Lain wrote...
I was a Femshep, so romancing Jack wasn't in it to begin with. But I got the same brusk 'cut-off' at some point, where she simply doesn't want to talk any more (implying, softly, she isn't into girls). I was saddened by that, as I certainly wanted to develop a friendship with her, like a sister, as someone said. I hope for ME3 Bioware will at least allow a relationship with Jack that isn't just about sleeping with her or not.

Allow me to post this again... ;-)

[MHRazer]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

MHRazer wrote...
I disagree, I think they could create additional dialog/relationship paths outside of "love" and "buddy-buddy." I think, if foregoing a romance, she could come to see a femshep as a sister-figure, and a maleshep as a brother-figure. The family she never had; someone she can depend on to be there for her, someone she likes and appreciates, yet doesn't want to get romantic. 

She would certainly still be resistant to that, just as she was with a romance, which is why it would still be in character. But it's still largely a front she puts up - it wouldn't be out of character to eventually come to appreciate someone else.

I don't know, that's up to the writers.  Jack's a loner, from what we see.  Her behaviour towards others doesn't seem to be indicative of friendship.  You're talking about growing the character beyond the growth of what we see in ME2.  Maybe through DLC, or ME3, the character will grow, and we'll see a stronger bond.  I think as far as ME2 goes right now, her attitude, and how she looks at others,  fits into her backstory.

She is a loner, but I don't think she wants to be. She tells you about all the gangs, cults, etc. she's run with... that seems to me to be an indication she actually wants to be part of a group. It just hasn't worked out so well for her so far, hence the initial (and prolonged ) hostility.

My family-like relationship still may be a bit outside of what we see of her, but I was mostly just saying that it would be possible to write a non-romance scenario where she continues to talk to you, without completely changing Jack. 

Edit: And that's why I said I think it was a budget issue... there's a lot of dialog they _could_ add, but they have to draw the line somewhere with the writing and voice talent. (Though I wouldn't complain if they drew the line much farther out)

Modifié par MHRazer, 13 septembre 2010 - 07:57 .

[Iwakura-Lain]

MHRazer wrote...
She is a loner, but I don't think she wants to be. She tells you about all the gangs, cults, etc. she's run with... that seems to me to be an indication she actually wants to be part of a group. It just hasn't worked out so well for her so far, hence the initial (and prolonged ) hostility.

My family-like relationship still may be a bit outside of what we see of her, but I was mostly just saying that it would be possible to write a non-romance scenario where she continues to talk to you, without completely changing Jack. 

Edit: And that's why I said I think it was a budget issue... there's a lot of dialog they _could_ add, but they have to draw the line somewhere with the writing and voice talent. (Though I wouldn't complain if they drew the line much farther out)

Isn't there a moment, as maleshep (unconfirmed, haven't played one yet) where Jack really breaks down and thus demonstrates she needs friendship most of all?

At any rate, just because Jack has severe trust issues, doesn't mean she doesn't want/need friends; she just has a hard time trusting people, is all. And I think Jack stays onboard the Normandy for this precise reason: she (instinctively, maybe) feels she will find more there than her otherwise hollow life of wanton crime.

[Gethforceone]

yorkj86 wrote...

I'll just say that I'm enthusiastic whenever a writer breaks down down the "tough loner" meme.  Even the bald space marine meathead stereotypes in "Gears of War" had people they were fighting for, be they alive or otherwise.

I'm not saying that the "tough loner" meme can't work.  I'm not saying that the player is wrong for not wanting to affect Jack.  I personally appreciate it being broken down.  It doesn't mean that the person is less tough.  Instead, it just exposes the claim as fraudulent, that needing someone is somehow necessarily a weakness.

I agree.

But think shuting down around a femshep or a non-LI maleshep fits with her character.