20813 réponses à ce sujet

[Mondo47]

I think based on Jack's extranet access logs, to begin with at least she is looking for a way off the ship as soon as possible. I don't think she would doubt her ability to make an escape if she wanted to, but something keeps her around without the quite-reasonable assumption that she'd just start wrecking the place. She bides her time; she's waiting for the right moment to do it. She hangs around long enough to get the data she needs for her longstanding revenge plan, but by the time she's gone through it, and Shepard has helped her put a nail in the coffin of her past, the only thing that makes sense for her sticking around is the simple fact that Shepard seems genuine in his/her desire to play fair with Jack. Be Shep Paragon or Renegade, it becomes clear to Jack that Cerberus isn't pulling the strings, and that Shepard is in command... maybe he/she is worth sticking around with for now - screw the rest of the crew, it's Shepard she stays for. She makes a leap of faith on them - no other hypothesis makes as much sense if you ask me.

And honestly, at the end of the day, if Jack was going to behave in an entirely realistic manner, there'd be no place for her in the story. Plain and simple. She probably wouldn't be sane, either.

[Mondo47]

We have to take a little leap of faith of our own on Jack... there are plenty of holes in the other characters we could b*tch about; I mean, why take Thane? It's not like there's a single or even a small group of leaders he can assassinate. Kasumi's knowledge of entry systems is potentially going to be useless against Collector-tech. Zaeed doing a suicide mission for money? Come on...

[Mondo47]

Sure they could, but their reasons are just as tenuous and require a leap of faith on our parts to just accept the reasoning for the being there - working for Cerberus is a motivation may work, but the reasoning for them being there is less stable than a fainting goat.

[Mondo47]

Oh, come on... the logic for some of them is just as flawed. Perhaps not to such a degree, sure, but it's just plain illogical in some cases, which in my book is just the balance that has to be met by the needs of the writing and the needs of a playable game. Saying it only falls flat on Jack is ignoring the issues you have elsewhere because one means more to you than the others. It's bias we all have in here, but it's bias all the same

Modifié par Mondo47, 25 septembre 2010 - 12:36 .

[Mondo47]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

How unusuall of you Mondo.  You've hardly ever responded to me in the past, if the exchange between us even begins to show any signs of it becoming a debate or argument. 

Bias?  Umm...maybe.  However, you said yourself, that perhaps the logic is flawed to a higher degree, when it comes to Jack.  That's basically what I've been saying, plus, I think that this flawed logic with Jack's character, contains a certain incongruity, that the others lack. 

How about that?

I dunno, I see where you're coming from, Johnny... it just sounds too much like you're too close to Jack to look at the flaws in the other characters (be it their motivations, reasoning, personal backgrounds and skills). The fact this is a game and not a movie/book/whatever forces certain sacrifices on the part of story to ensure the game is playable. Sure, they seem like bad writing or lazy writing or just plain stupid writing to us at times, but it's the game that is God here; it's all a means to an end. I think that's why I'm fighting you back on this one - you're close to the mark, yes, but you're determined to call it a bullseye - at least to me

[chris025657]

yorkj86 wrote...

Bioware at least tries to explain why Samara, a Justicar, a super-cop who works alone, would work with Shepard, by hand-waving the situation with the Third Oath of Subsumation. Jack's cooperation does seem a little off, I'll admit.

I don't know if you guys know this, but  if you ask Jack about the mission her stated motivation changes after certain missions. 

Initially she does want to cut and run at the first opportunity, but after Pragia she says something like, "I owe you Shepard. If you say we need to go after the Collectors, that's good enough for me". And after the Collector ship she says, " I know when someone has murder on their minds. The Collectors are out to kill us. I'd rather do it to them first." 

Her cooperation makes sense to me. 

[MHRazer]

chris025657 wrote...

yorkj86 wrote...

Bioware at least tries to explain why Samara, a Justicar, a super-cop who works alone, would work with Shepard, by hand-waving the situation with the Third Oath of Subsumation. Jack's cooperation does seem a little off, I'll admit.

I don't know if you guys know this, but  if you ask Jack about the mission her stated motivation changes after certain missions. 

Initially she does want to cut and run at the first opportunity, but after Pragia she says something like, "I owe you Shepard. If you say we need to go after the Collectors, that's good enough for me". And after the Collector ship she says, " I know when someone has murder on their minds. The Collectors are out to kill us. I'd rather do it to them first." 

Her cooperation makes sense to me. 

Her first line, which is the one seemingly causing the story-related problems, isn't "Cut and run ASAP," though. It's "I'm here for your mission, then I'm cutting loose"

Something like that. Point is, even from the beginning she says she's staying for the suicide mission. Which, I agree does certainly seem a bit off and made me go "Huh?" on my first playthrough. But, sacrifices are made for the sake of the game I guess. I don't really have a problem with it. As Mondo said, you could point out flaws all over the place if you wanted to. 

Which at this point is all we have to do, I guess. So nitpick away 

Modifié par MHRazer, 25 septembre 2010 - 01:40 .

[axl99]

That's painting with a wide-ass brush.



Cerberus didn't actually build the Normandy themselves. They gave the idea to the Alliance and "kept" the schematics. Shepard is responsible for destroying the Collectors, help or no help. TIM can't even do it himself with his oh-so-unlimited resources and multi-tasking know-how in his flawed organization - he'd already lost several teams trying to figure his grand scheme out. The mission itself is just cleaning up what the Reapers left behind.



And who's supposed to be in charge of the suicide mission? Shepard. Right after the Omega 4 relay, it's Shepard's time to really get down to business. As we all remember, Shepard led the assault against the Reapers. It's not surprising that Cerberus saw that and went "Oh hey! Maybe Shepard can take on the Collectors too!" TIM spent two years trying to get Shepard carte blanche. A good chunk of the game was part of the prep work.



As for Jack, she's technically working with Shepard even if she's ultimately on a Cerberus vessel staffed by Cerberus crew and working with unsavoury people - most of whom don't actually work for Cerberus. It's a real headscratcher, but the itch doesn't last long.



It's in character for her to feel like she needs to repay a debt. Everyone else on the ship defers to Shepard. And I disagree that her entire backstory is just Cerberus. She's still got her life out in the Terminus systems. Her criminal record is part of her backstory too, albeit it's a shame not much was delved into. I don't think Jack initially had the inkling that she was about to go on a one way trip till much later. All she could think about was just blowing up Teltin. That's all she really wants out of Cerberus, it's really the only thing that can be given to her.



You can also argue Miranda suddenly deciding to quit working for Cerberus to be a great WHATISTHISIDON'TEVEN moment as well.



There was tons of missed opportunities with the characters, sure, but the fact of the matter is:



If you got that much to say about the story, what would you have done differently then? If YOU were writing it?

[Mondo47]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

Then counter me.  Prove that what I said above is innacurate.  Show me how the incongruity in Jack's case, is not unique, in the fact that her whole backstory is Cerberus.  It's not explained away, like the other squadmates are.  Jack has the only real connection to Cerberus.  It's the whole character.  Earlier, I was simply pointing out an obvious incongruency here.  You want to deny it, and tell me I'm off the mark, then prove it.

That's not what I was saying at all. I was agreeing with you to a pretty high degree. My issue though is that what you're demanding flies directly in the face of making Jack work for the game itself. If this is what you want; for Jack to work as she should based on her backstory, then she may as well be replaced with a different character, because she won't function. Yes, you're right about everything else, ok? We've got what we got, and I think what we got was pretty decent overall. I'd rather have the story with Jack than without, because Jack will not function in the story without us taking a leap of faith on her motivations to stay. Plain and simple. It's not logical, ok, but it stops the character negating herself. A lot of the characters have these inconsistant elements - and yes, ok, Jack's are huge - but there are enough of them in the story to make a hole you could shove a Reaper through. It's not just Jack that doesn't add up. If you're going to pick at one aspect of the story, you can't just write off all the other issues too.

So what would fix this, other than changing Jack entirely? That's my issue with this argument; the only solution is to rewrite the character entirely. Or not include her at all. Either solution destroys Jack. And frankly, that would do the game one hell of a disservice.

[axl99]

And you're missing mine JD.



My issue in this discussion is the fact that no one else besides Mondo who just now had actually given a constructive critique about Jack's character.

[Pacifien]

So normally I'd get really formal when in moderator mode, but since this is the Jack thread: what the hell, guys? I thought we reserved this smoldering level of hostility for discussions about Jack's hair.

[Mondo47]

Ok, I'm really too tired for this, but I thought from the way you framed your intital response to me that this was a point for debate as opposed to a statement (because I can't debate it because I agree with it). You're right though; Jack can't function as a story construct without liberties being taken with the basis material (to use a half-four in the morning construction metaphore) There are plenty of issues with other characters too, mind you, though I think I'll just leave them to sacrifices for the sake of gameplay and go to bed before I pass out on the keyboard

[Weiser_Cain]

Pacifien wrote...

So normally I'd get really formal when in moderator mode, but since this is the Jack thread: what the hell, guys? I thought we reserved this smoldering level of hostility for discussions about Jack's hair.

There's something wrong with Jack fan's medulla oblongata. *Waits to get tackled*

[Errationatus]

One thing to keep in mind, if I might make a suggestion, about any discussion about Jack/Cerberus, is the parallels - and there are a few - between her story and Wolstencraft's Frankenstein - not the crappy movies, the novel.

Jack is both a creation - and victim of - Cerberus. 

She's this biotic monster that they created - probably as a weapon - or the prototype for several - that escaped their direct control.  Like the Creature in Frankenstein, Jack has decided to confound and ruin her creators for what they've done.  Like the Creature, Jack has no concern for the rest of humanity - like it, Jack cares little if she lives or dies - and without Shepard's impinging on her life, she could have very well ended the way the Creature did, in the wastes, alone, waiting for or seeking death via her exile, once she - as she avowed - destroyed all those responsible for both her creation and unhappiness.

I don't know how this helps or hinders this current discussion, but I think it is something that should be at least considered in this particular line of reasoning.

[MHRazer]

I'm not even really sure what this was all about, since everybody was pretty much in agreement... yeah, it doesn't make sense. In a pretty big way for Jack with Cerberus. But this isn't a novel where backstories and motivations can be thoroughly crafted and explained to make sense; Bioware had a few dozen conversations and a mission with which to shoehorn each character into the larger narrative. There will be inconsistencies, there ARE inconsistencies, I didn't see anyone denying that. So I'm not sure where tensions came in, to be honest. 

If it was me or someone else using the word nitpick, it was a poor word choice. I should have just said criticize, since pulling apart what they've given us from multiple angles, aside from the wonderful world of fanfics, is all we have to do if we want to keep talking in here :happy:


Edit: Crap, this was a no good post for 600th page. I'll need to edit in a new screenshot to compensate.

Modifié par MHRazer, 25 septembre 2010 - 04:03 .

[axl99]

.... Any ideas for another Jack sketch?

[Pacifien]

I've always felt that Jack was seen more as a weapon than a warrior, as a warrior would imply Cerberus was at least considering Subject Zero as a human being and I doubt they did. Anyway, since her escape from Teltin, she apparently has crossed paths with Cerberus multiple times. Don't know the exact situation myself, don't know if she mentions more details in the game. But anyway, I've always speculated that even in her escape, the Illusive Man did his best to keep track of this weapon in which he'd invested. She could run all she wanted, she was never going to be far from the Illusive Man's plans, she was never going to be free from Cerberus.

I gather her time on the Normandy was the closest she'd ever gotten to researching details about Cerberus. Hell yeah she'd stick around trying to eat all that up. And if she didn't stick around, she'd just be tracked all over again and thrown in jail. She's a smart lady, she can swallow her rage just long enough to gather all the intel she wants on Cerberus for the inevitable point where she cuts loose from Shepard's group and goes on a killing spree of revenge.

Anyway, she's a wandering spirit. I'm sure she hangs in places you'd think she'd walk away from, but she'll stick around just to see what sh*t rains down while she's there. Kind of like Wrex, if you don't recruit him right away, saying he wants to go with Shepard anyway 'cause he can sense Shepard is where the fun is at.
.... Wait, what are we talking about again?

Oh right, I came across an image that was new to me a few minutes ago. Well, one part of it is new to me. Apparently, it was an advertisement in some magazine, and I'm familiar with the artwork of every character in it except Jack. I don't think I've seen her depicted this way:

Modifié par Pacifien, 25 septembre 2010 - 04:06 .