So, before she tells Shepard about Pragia, Jack says that she has thoughts in her head crawling arould like "little bugs". We know that she's not properly psychotic, she's just desensitized to violence by torture and conditioning. Describing her thoughts like that, though, is she just speaking figuratively, or do we think that Jack obsesses over certain things? Do we think that this was a one-time thing, considering Pragia's significance to Jack, or is this a psychological condition she suffers from?
Into the Bad Girl: Jack Fans
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Average Gatsby
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#15402
Posté 13 octobre 2010 - 03:25
axl99
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I'd say it was figurative, she was using a metaphor after all. She was fine until she saw the co-ordinates for Pragia. After that, she got the jitter bugs. (*drumroll) It was a dormant thought in her head that she always wanted to remove herself from that place, I'd think it is a safe bet that this is a one time thing.
#15403
Posté 13 octobre 2010 - 03:37
Yana Montana
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axl99 wrote...
Beautiful work!
#15404
Posté 13 octobre 2010 - 04:05
Mondo47
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I can't read anything in the 'bugs' analogy at all - when my hay fever kicks in my skin itches I often say it feels like spiders crawling under my skin - doesn't mean I'm a psycho. But is Jack nuts? Hmmm...
Well, to say yes would be far too simplistic, and also incorrect in a plethora of ways. Not wanting to rehash old debates, but we know the "psychotic" label can't be applied to her in any serious way, because Jack demonstrates attachment, empathy and emotion at several points in the game, and she seems overall to lack the finely-crafted ability to lie or manipulate a true psychotic uses to often mask their condition or manipulate others. Calling Jack a psychopath is as lazy and innacurate as calling Joe Merrick a monster... but hey, it makes her sound more extreme, obviously
Rehash aside, Jack does display some psychological issues all the same; she pushes people away, she reacts to minor slights with aggression, and so certainly ticks the boxes for an antisocial personality. Her desperate attempts to sabotage or simply avoid emotional closeness with others is a mitigating action to avoid being hurt. The casual approach to sex suggests an attempt to distance herself from the emotional conotations of the act and more tellingly a way to avoid being emotionally and psychologically wounded by proxy - we can't forget that Jack has been subjected to sexual violence most likely on several occasions in her life, though this in itself is often not something that completely diffuses physical or emotional urges... Jack is not so controlled she can completely avoid attractions to others or desires for physical contact or closeness. All of this adds up to an arsenal of defense mechanisms for her to use to avoid harm; something engineered to allow her to survive in the world she has been stranded in.
There's little room for doubt that Jack has been damaged by her life experiences, though she has avoided plunging into truly dangerous psychosis somehow. She probably does have some level of retardation in her emotional growth; Jack has been exposed to perhaps the ultimate in abusive childhoods, one that was concluded with extreme violence, though Jack's abuse did not end there - it continued in various forms, which could have conceivably subverted the simple dictum of violence being the answer to internal pain and conflict, if anything violence only stopped it for a while, it became an act of retribution, payback-in-waiting, something Jack fires off at the slightest hint of being hurt in order to avoid pain, humiliation or anguish. Jack never kills without compunction, only in defense (albeit sometimes in defense of an action not yet taken by a victim - this is the only thing in her profile that is potentially based upon delusion, though it is arguable). This is more in line with sociopathy than psychopathy, so we can say that Jack has psychological disorders of varying levels, they do not dictate her behaviour on more than a passing level; they do not dictate her entire operation within society. She has a level of control over her actions; so much so that she willingly defers to others, displays compassion in limited degrees, and accepts accountability for her choices. Showing an obsessive streak, a need to examine the details over and over, to dwell and brood, could be interpreted as her steering herself along a certain path; the little voice inside her saying you have to do this to make sure you don't get hurt, you have to make sure they know not to mess with you, you have to pay them back for what they did - because Jack has doubts about her actions being the correct ones. It also fits neatly into the general mindsets that allow many people to survive that other realm of psychological harm - repeated imprisoment.
If anything, Jack is balancing on a wire; at some point her ability to stay on the tightrope without falling into complete criminal psychosis. The amount of time spent on the wire is the key here... if Jack continues along the path she is taking, eventually her behavioural patterns will become so ingrained that the cause/effect in her behaviour will shorten to nil, making her simply murderous and shoving her soundly into psychopathy. However, if enough happens to Jack to make her doubt her courses of action, to make her see other ways to deal with conflict, emotional distress, and the baggage of her past, there is no reason why Jack could not continue to function and indeed improve in her interactions with others. Experience contrary to her experiences thus far would be therapy enough I would think; the effects long-term respect, support and stable relationships could eventually reap benefits for her, though this would be a process that could take years to settle into. Jack may well never be a regular member of society, but she could fit in well enough around some people not to require the destructive mindset she uses to survive now.
Well, to say yes would be far too simplistic, and also incorrect in a plethora of ways. Not wanting to rehash old debates, but we know the "psychotic" label can't be applied to her in any serious way, because Jack demonstrates attachment, empathy and emotion at several points in the game, and she seems overall to lack the finely-crafted ability to lie or manipulate a true psychotic uses to often mask their condition or manipulate others. Calling Jack a psychopath is as lazy and innacurate as calling Joe Merrick a monster... but hey, it makes her sound more extreme, obviously
Rehash aside, Jack does display some psychological issues all the same; she pushes people away, she reacts to minor slights with aggression, and so certainly ticks the boxes for an antisocial personality. Her desperate attempts to sabotage or simply avoid emotional closeness with others is a mitigating action to avoid being hurt. The casual approach to sex suggests an attempt to distance herself from the emotional conotations of the act and more tellingly a way to avoid being emotionally and psychologically wounded by proxy - we can't forget that Jack has been subjected to sexual violence most likely on several occasions in her life, though this in itself is often not something that completely diffuses physical or emotional urges... Jack is not so controlled she can completely avoid attractions to others or desires for physical contact or closeness. All of this adds up to an arsenal of defense mechanisms for her to use to avoid harm; something engineered to allow her to survive in the world she has been stranded in.
There's little room for doubt that Jack has been damaged by her life experiences, though she has avoided plunging into truly dangerous psychosis somehow. She probably does have some level of retardation in her emotional growth; Jack has been exposed to perhaps the ultimate in abusive childhoods, one that was concluded with extreme violence, though Jack's abuse did not end there - it continued in various forms, which could have conceivably subverted the simple dictum of violence being the answer to internal pain and conflict, if anything violence only stopped it for a while, it became an act of retribution, payback-in-waiting, something Jack fires off at the slightest hint of being hurt in order to avoid pain, humiliation or anguish. Jack never kills without compunction, only in defense (albeit sometimes in defense of an action not yet taken by a victim - this is the only thing in her profile that is potentially based upon delusion, though it is arguable). This is more in line with sociopathy than psychopathy, so we can say that Jack has psychological disorders of varying levels, they do not dictate her behaviour on more than a passing level; they do not dictate her entire operation within society. She has a level of control over her actions; so much so that she willingly defers to others, displays compassion in limited degrees, and accepts accountability for her choices. Showing an obsessive streak, a need to examine the details over and over, to dwell and brood, could be interpreted as her steering herself along a certain path; the little voice inside her saying you have to do this to make sure you don't get hurt, you have to make sure they know not to mess with you, you have to pay them back for what they did - because Jack has doubts about her actions being the correct ones. It also fits neatly into the general mindsets that allow many people to survive that other realm of psychological harm - repeated imprisoment.
If anything, Jack is balancing on a wire; at some point her ability to stay on the tightrope without falling into complete criminal psychosis. The amount of time spent on the wire is the key here... if Jack continues along the path she is taking, eventually her behavioural patterns will become so ingrained that the cause/effect in her behaviour will shorten to nil, making her simply murderous and shoving her soundly into psychopathy. However, if enough happens to Jack to make her doubt her courses of action, to make her see other ways to deal with conflict, emotional distress, and the baggage of her past, there is no reason why Jack could not continue to function and indeed improve in her interactions with others. Experience contrary to her experiences thus far would be therapy enough I would think; the effects long-term respect, support and stable relationships could eventually reap benefits for her, though this would be a process that could take years to settle into. Jack may well never be a regular member of society, but she could fit in well enough around some people not to require the destructive mindset she uses to survive now.
Modifié par Mondo47, 13 octobre 2010 - 04:09 .
#15405
Guest_yorkj86_*
Posté 13 octobre 2010 - 05:10
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I agree with all of that, Mondo, but I wasn't saying that Jack's legitimately crazy, I was just wondering if people think that she might have an obsessive personality. She could be a person who over-thinks things, which may actually have been to her advantage in the past. As a habit, she may analyze things too closely, seeing patterns and motivations and suspect behavior in people, where there aren't any to be found. Lastly, it's not healthy to be alone with one's thoughts for too long. Since Jack has been desensitized to violence, and if she sees violence as a means to her survival, she could possess the habit of cultivating violent thoughts.
Modifié par yorkj86, 13 octobre 2010 - 05:12 .
#15406
Posté 13 octobre 2010 - 05:22
adriano_c
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No more so than any other cynical person with lingering issues.
#15407
Posté 13 octobre 2010 - 05:42
Mondo47
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Oh, I know that York, that was more just me laying down a pre-emptive "no she isn't crazy" strike - just in case it brought the whiners out of the woodwork
#15408
Guest_JohnnyDollar_*
Posté 13 octobre 2010 - 08:08
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You can't really label or diagnose her, and equate that to a realistic scenario, because it's not realistic, it's fiction. We can say she was traumatized and abused and escaped. We can say that she was a criminal and she was locked up. Everything else just about, get's sucked into the world of make believe.
There is no right or wrong way to interpret Jack. No more so that there is a right or wrong way of doing a literary essay, or short story work, or turning in a research paper.
All you have to do support what your argument is. You don't really have to prove it, just make it convincing. The instructor can tell you that your structure is wrong, or you didn't use transisitions, or you're not providing enough to support your thesis, etc., but he/she won't tell you that your interpretation is wrong.
I don't think Jack is "crazy", but if I did, all I would have to do is back up my assertion a little. I can do that. I don't have to prove it. I only need to support it a little, and I wouldn't be any more incorrect in my interpretation of Jack than anyone else in this forum.
There is no right or wrong way to interpret Jack. No more so that there is a right or wrong way of doing a literary essay, or short story work, or turning in a research paper.
All you have to do support what your argument is. You don't really have to prove it, just make it convincing. The instructor can tell you that your structure is wrong, or you didn't use transisitions, or you're not providing enough to support your thesis, etc., but he/she won't tell you that your interpretation is wrong.
I don't think Jack is "crazy", but if I did, all I would have to do is back up my assertion a little. I can do that. I don't have to prove it. I only need to support it a little, and I wouldn't be any more incorrect in my interpretation of Jack than anyone else in this forum.
#15409
Posté 13 octobre 2010 - 08:50
axl99
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At this point I go back to the marketing ads and shake my head.
#15410
Posté 13 octobre 2010 - 08:58
adriano_c
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Glad I missed the marketing.
-edit. Speaking of which... Anyone else going to retire from frequenting the forums once the next game is announced? I'd personally prefer going into it completely fresh (that, and I dislike any sort of slow drip of information over the course of months), as I did with ME2.
-edit. Speaking of which... Anyone else going to retire from frequenting the forums once the next game is announced? I'd personally prefer going into it completely fresh (that, and I dislike any sort of slow drip of information over the course of months), as I did with ME2.
Modifié par adriano_c, 13 octobre 2010 - 09:00 .
#15411
Posté 13 octobre 2010 - 09:04
Mondo47
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You're right, Johnny, yup. I'm more mitigating the flawed arguments that rotate around the P-Word, really. There's arguments that sit well with all manner of psychological interpretation, but it can only be based on what the story presents us with... but unless Jack reveals herself to be a literal man-eating monster in ME3, she won't ever be a very convincing one.
#15412
Guest_JohnnyDollar_*
Posté 13 octobre 2010 - 09:19
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I agree with you Mondo. A lot more evidence supports her not being crazy versus her being crazy. If I was trying to be an unbiased observer, then I still think that you could convince me that she's not, a lot better so than someone could convince me that she is. The reason why I brought that up, is because it's not black and white here. The fact that it's fiction, and a video game, introduces a ton of variables that otherwise wouldn't exist.
It's like arguing over ethical and moral decisions that you make in ME. It's futile. You can't preach to me (I'm not talking about you or anyone else specifically btw Mondo) about morals in this game for example. I don't care how pristine and morally righteous your Shepard is. Or how evil your Shepard is, I suppose, for that matter. Because I can expose your hypocrisy. That's the nature of the game and the story though.
Edit: As far as the ME3 announcement goes: I probably will try to stay away from the forum once ME3 is announced, and the rumors, innuendos, videos, etc., start hitting the forum. I'm glad I stayed away when LOTSB was released, because some folks can't help but be spoilers.
It's like arguing over ethical and moral decisions that you make in ME. It's futile. You can't preach to me (I'm not talking about you or anyone else specifically btw Mondo) about morals in this game for example. I don't care how pristine and morally righteous your Shepard is. Or how evil your Shepard is, I suppose, for that matter. Because I can expose your hypocrisy. That's the nature of the game and the story though.
Edit: As far as the ME3 announcement goes: I probably will try to stay away from the forum once ME3 is announced, and the rumors, innuendos, videos, etc., start hitting the forum. I'm glad I stayed away when LOTSB was released, because some folks can't help but be spoilers.
Modifié par JohnnyDollar, 13 octobre 2010 - 09:51 .
#15413
Posté 13 octobre 2010 - 10:43
Urdaniel
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yorkj86 wrote...
If your Shepard could give Jack a book to read, what would it be?
The Princess Bride - primarily because I referenced it on Day 1 and it landed with a clang (as royce pointed out).
Though on a more serious note, because it also reflects my Shep's attitude when dealing with Jack. Retconning things for a minute to make it so that Jack's never read it, it's a way for Gabriel to spot her a clue about their relationship (except for the part where Westley accuses Buttercup of infidelity).
#15414
Guest_yorkj86_*
Posté 13 octobre 2010 - 11:05
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adriano_c wrote...
Glad I missed the marketing.
-edit. Speaking of which... Anyone else going to retire from frequenting the forums once the next game is announced? I'd personally prefer going into it completely fresh (that, and I dislike any sort of slow drip of information over the course of months), as I did with ME2.
Was something announced?
I'll personally be back here to belly-ache about Jack not being included in ME3, if she's not included in ME3.
#15415
Guest_JohnnyDollar_*
Posté 13 octobre 2010 - 11:21
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Btw, I wasn't disagreeing with your long post about the psychotic label, Mondo. I probably should have said that, because it may have looked like I was I was trying to strike it down, which I wasn't.
It just got me to thinking about something. It's practically futile to debate certain aspects of this game/story. By proxy, there are circumstances out of your control, that direct your Shepard in a way that stacks the deck against you. One can't totally rationalize so many choices in this game. One might think it's the right choice, and it might be, but one doesn't have a leg to stand on from a moral standpoint, for example, I don't think.
This encompasses the whole story/game though, not just ethical and moral questions. If it didn't, then that makes it even more crazy, and whatever rules we go by, might as well all be thrown out of the window.
It's hard to talk about Jack's mental state when she's working for Cerberus. Yeah sure, we know she's on the ship for the sake of gameplay. That's fine, but what is there for the sake of gameplay? Who decides what's there for the sake of gameplay, and what's not? See...it's not black and white.
How can we talk about Jack's true mental state, when in reality, the closest scenario that I can draw to her backstory, is someone that survived the horror of being held captive and experimented on in a Concentration Camp. Yet she is not enduring this trauma realistically. So, how can we truly judge her mental state based on real world psychology? How can we tell someone that they are off the mark or incorrect? We can't, I don't think.
It just got me to thinking about something. It's practically futile to debate certain aspects of this game/story. By proxy, there are circumstances out of your control, that direct your Shepard in a way that stacks the deck against you. One can't totally rationalize so many choices in this game. One might think it's the right choice, and it might be, but one doesn't have a leg to stand on from a moral standpoint, for example, I don't think.
This encompasses the whole story/game though, not just ethical and moral questions. If it didn't, then that makes it even more crazy, and whatever rules we go by, might as well all be thrown out of the window.
It's hard to talk about Jack's mental state when she's working for Cerberus. Yeah sure, we know she's on the ship for the sake of gameplay. That's fine, but what is there for the sake of gameplay? Who decides what's there for the sake of gameplay, and what's not? See...it's not black and white.
How can we talk about Jack's true mental state, when in reality, the closest scenario that I can draw to her backstory, is someone that survived the horror of being held captive and experimented on in a Concentration Camp. Yet she is not enduring this trauma realistically. So, how can we truly judge her mental state based on real world psychology? How can we tell someone that they are off the mark or incorrect? We can't, I don't think.
Modifié par JohnnyDollar, 13 octobre 2010 - 11:37 .
#15416
Posté 14 octobre 2010 - 05:04
Gethforceone
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I'll find out if anyone from ME2 are squadmates in ME3 then go from there.adriano_c wrote...
Glad I missed the marketing.
-edit. Speaking of which... Anyone else going to retire from frequenting the forums once the next game is announced? I'd personally prefer going into it completely fresh (that, and I dislike any sort of slow drip of information over the course of months), as I did with ME2.
Modifié par Gethforceone, 14 octobre 2010 - 05:55 .
#15417
Posté 14 octobre 2010 - 05:28
thesnake777
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In respect to the statement were Jack has "thoughts running through her head like little bugs", it would make sense that she would obbess over pragia. It was her whole childhood and the experience shaped her into the violent killer she is now. Regardless of what happened after she left because she was just a helpless child on pragia it would always stand out to her as the worst experience she ever endured and every time she strikes out at a threat she's most likely striking out at the people that made her helpless on pragia.
#15418
Posté 14 octobre 2010 - 01:52
axl99
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I was hopping around Youtube one day, and the lyrics in this song made me think of Jack -
#15419
Guest_yorkj86_*
Posté 14 octobre 2010 - 02:21
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That's pretty spot-on, axl. The lyrics all fit Jack's thoughts.
It's a damn catchy song, too. I somehow, instantly, just by listening, knew that the singer is Swedish, which is weird.
It's a damn catchy song, too. I somehow, instantly, just by listening, knew that the singer is Swedish, which is weird.
Modifié par yorkj86, 14 octobre 2010 - 02:32 .
#15420
Guest_Sundown Native_*
Posté 14 octobre 2010 - 02:31
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If something about ME3 does come out, I'll just be glad that it did; I'm finding it severely hard to play ANY game, right now.
Speaking of which, did anyone find something new?
Speaking of which, did anyone find something new?
#15421
Guest_yorkj86_*
Posté 14 octobre 2010 - 02:48
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Sundown Native wrote...
If something about ME3 does come out, I'll just be glad that it did; I'm finding it severely hard to play ANY game, right now.
Speaking of which, did anyone find something new?
That's what I thought, that someone had uncovered something, but since no one responded when I asked earlier, and since nothing's showing up on gaming news websites, I figure people were just speaking hypothetically.
#15422
Posté 14 octobre 2010 - 03:30
adriano_c
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No news about ME3, as far as I know...
Football Manager is just around the corner, though, so I'm not too anxious.
Football Manager is just around the corner, though, so I'm not too anxious.
#15423
Guest_yorkj86_*
Posté 14 octobre 2010 - 05:27
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Curse you, axl, I can't stop listening to that song 
This artist is pretty good.
This artist is pretty good.
Modifié par yorkj86, 14 octobre 2010 - 05:37 .
#15424
Posté 14 octobre 2010 - 05:40
Epantiras
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yorkj86 wrote...
adriano_c wrote...
Glad I missed the marketing.
-edit. Speaking of which... Anyone else going to retire from frequenting the forums once the next game is announced? I'd personally prefer going into it completely fresh (that, and I dislike any sort of slow drip of information over the course of months), as I did with ME2.
Was something announced?
I'll personally be back here to belly-ache about Jack not being included in ME3, if she's not included in ME3.
Well, there is that interview with a Bioware dude about the upcoming TIM comic... he also vaguely mentioned DLCs and a new character-based comic, but nothing ME3 related.
Well, I think that staying away from the internet and avoid ME3 spoilers is the best thing to do in order to enjoy the game: I'm a sort of Dragon Age 2 Info Broker (lol), I like to keep my Deviant Art watchers updated with the latest stuff, but someday when the news start being spoiler-heavy, I'll be forced to pull the plug... I don't want to be misled by Bioware's misleading marketing :-P
Going back to the character-based comic... by the few words the Bioware dude spoke, I can safely assume that it's not based around one of the companions. This gives me hope, I want to finish the Jack comic before Bioware gets to do their own (if they ever will). I must draw faster, dammit!
#15425
Guest_yorkj86_*
Posté 14 octobre 2010 - 06:09
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Epantiras wrote...
Going back to the character-based comic... by the few words the Bioware dude spoke, I can safely assume that it's not based around one of the companions. This gives me hope, I want to finish the Jack comic before Bioware gets to do their own (if they ever will). I must draw faster, dammit!
Yes, how is that going, by the way?
