20813 réponses à ce sujet

[Weiser_Cain]

Most criminals aren't smart.

[Errationatus]

Mondo47 wrote...

I just always thought criminals talked like this in reality - guess I was wrong, huh?

*Snort*  I'd end up shot just fer laff'n. 

Seriously though, surely criminals talk like, uh, regular folk (outside of movies at least)? I mean, anyone can be as scatty as Manson without having to be stuck in a cell someplace? Is there a way criminals talk? I'm not trying to be contentious here, I'm just genuinely interested.

Unless they are members of a gang - and this is all complete assumption - probably not.  Gangs have their own way of communicating.  But then, any exclusive group does - I mean, could you decipher "cop code" on a radio without knowing it all beforehand? 

When is "Talk Like  A Pirate" day, anyway?  Can you imagine Jack 'y'ar-ing" it up? 

[GuardianAngel470]

Mondo47 wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

did anyone else notice how jack is completely unrealistic? Her character is completely unbelievable.

There is no way in hell a criminal of her stature would talk like that. Maybe a mobster but not street criminal like her.

Just wondering if you guys noticed that.

I'm sorry, but I don't understand this at all... Jack talks in a way that is more becoming of some mob torpedo and not some kind of scrappy street thug? Um...

I personally thought Jack had been involved in organised crime at various points, having been a pirate, kidnapper and extortionist, but that's just me. Seriously though, how are criminals supposed to talk (I'm assuming this is based on some kind of knowledge outside of the cliches of cinema)? Explain it to me, please, because I have no idea...

Let me make an example. On purgatory if you choose the paragon "I'm here to rescue you" line her line would have been.
Sh*t, you sound lika f-n ****.  

And yes, my experience comes from personal contact with similar people. I know it sounds like gratuatous cussing, but it really is how they talk.

[Errationatus]

Phategod1 wrote...

greatest use of a president ever. 

Thanks!

[Errationatus]

adriano_c wrote...

If only there were some sort of "rolling eyes" face available to use whenever people try to insert their political opinions into discussion of video game stuff.

Yah, I'd like that one myself.  There's nothing close, either.  Bugger. 

Alas.

[Errationatus]

Weiser_Cain wrote...

Most criminals aren't smart.

True, but Jack obviously is.  It seems to me the implication, as I said, was that Jack shouldn't be as smart as she's depicted as being in order to be "realistic".

I am perfectly amenable to being proven wrong, of course.

[GuardianAngel470]

JakeMacDon wrote...

Mondo47 wrote...

I just always thought criminals talked like this in reality - guess I was wrong, huh?

*Snort*  I'd end up shot just fer laff'n. 

Seriously though, surely criminals talk like, uh, regular folk (outside of movies at least)? I mean, anyone can be as scatty as Manson without having to be stuck in a cell someplace? Is there a way criminals talk? I'm not trying to be contentious here, I'm just genuinely interested.

Unless they are members of a gang - and this is all complete assumption - probably not.  Gangs have their own way of communicating.  But then, any exclusive group does - I mean, could you decipher "cop code" on a radio without knowing it all beforehand? 

When is "Talk Like  A Pirate" day, anyway?  Can you imagine Jack 'y'ar-ing" it up? 

They don't. They really don't, at least not Jack's kind of criminal. Someone who fell in with pirates, gets tats for everything, wears s!utty clothing, and shoots people for no reason really don't talk like real people. 

My analogy with the mobster was more along the lines of how much she actually cussed and her sentence structure. She is fairly articulate for a street criminal which is odd to me.

You hear a lot more abreviations and shortenings of words than what Jack says. On rare occasions, Hollywood is actually accurate. I've met people that sound just like the comedisized gangsters of the movies.

[GuardianAngel470]

JakeMacDon wrote...

Mondo47 wrote...

I just always thought criminals talked like this in reality - guess I was wrong, huh?

*Snort*  I'd end up shot just fer laff'n. 

Seriously though, surely criminals talk like, uh, regular folk (outside of movies at least)? I mean, anyone can be as scatty as Manson without having to be stuck in a cell someplace? Is there a way criminals talk? I'm not trying to be contentious here, I'm just genuinely interested.

Unless they are members of a gang - and this is all complete assumption - probably not.  Gangs have their own way of communicating.  But then, any exclusive group does - I mean, could you decipher "cop code" on a radio without knowing it all beforehand? 

When is "Talk Like  A Pirate" day, anyway?  Can you imagine Jack 'y'ar-ing" it up? 

September 19, my dad's birthday.

[Errationatus]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Let me make an example. On purgatory if you choose the paragon "I'm here to rescue you" line her line would have been.
Sh*t, you sound lika f-n ****.  

And yes, my experience comes from personal contact with similar people. I know it sounds like gratuatous cussing, but it really is how they talk.

Uh... I've talked to 30 -year University professors who talked like that outside of class.  Personally, I see nothing "unrealistic" with how Jack speaks.  Tali, on the other hand?  Sheesh, Encycloquarian!  Do all quarians talk like that?

[Errationatus]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

September 19, my dad's birthday.

Y'ar, thankye kindly, matey!  I kin nevar rememba!  Y'ar.

Happy birthday to your Dad, next time around.

Apologies for any aspersions cast.  Having a bleed'n sugar rush, I think....

Modifié par JakeMacDon, 18 octobre 2010 - 02:25 .

[GuardianAngel470]

Weiser_Cain wrote...

Most criminals aren't smart.

Criminals most definitely are smart, but you couldn't tell that from the way they talk. They aren't smart as the honest citizen defines it. Many can't read and write properly, they slur every other word to the point that often they are unintelligible, and they can do some pretty stupid things (like shoot a cop).

But they often have figured out the concepts of supply and demand, they know just how to avoid the cops, and are often much more street smart than the average person.

I am of course generalizing, but on the whole Jack's kind of criminal is like that. There are hundreds of types of criminals in our world from white collar crime to crimes of passion to organized crime to gang bangers. I think that Jack's closest analog in our world would be the gang banger. She had a messed up childhood with abuse, she never had parents really and had to figure it all out for herself, she fell in with various gangs whether they were pirate gangs or smaller, and she did drugs.

So she isn't a white collar criminal, she wasn't part of any syndicate, she wasn't a good person gone bad like a murder of passion.

[Errationatus]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

They don't. They really don't, at least not Jack's kind of criminal. Someone who fell in with pirates, gets tats for everything, wears s!utty clothing, and shoots people for no reason really don't talk like real people. 

What kind of criminal is "Jack's kind of criminal", though?

My analogy with the mobster was more along the lines of how much she actually cussed and her sentence structure. She is fairly articulate for a street criminal which is odd to me.

Well, very little about Jack is typical - and that includes the tats and strategic belts.

You hear a lot more abreviations and shortenings of words than what Jack says. On rare occasions, Hollywood is actually accurate. I've met people that sound just like the comedisized gangsters of the movies.

Wow, really?  Freaky.

[adriano_c]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

blah

So, you're broadly painting anyone that can be tagged as a "street criminal" (as nebulous a concept as this is, already, without mentioning that this is a sci-fi game) with the essential requisite of speaking like they're a cast member of either Goodfellas or Menace to Society. Otherwise, their character, on the whole, "makes no sense."

Nahhhhh, try again.

[Mondo47]

Ah, ok, I get you now. Basically, more base and profane, less articulate, perhaps a suggestion of a limited vocabulary.

I can't see Jack fitting that mold... I mean, she's not simply an ex gang member. She's done so many things, ran with so many different groups, which all had their own internal structures I'd imagine, that it seems only logical that Jack would be more experienced, and thus more educated (maybe only in a school-of-life way, but still educated) that your average thug. I think for her to dovetail into a stereotype or expectation of criminality would hobble the character; she's supposed to be something of a puzzle to the player - otherwise she'd spur no interest outside of how much sh*t she can break for us, and based on her dialogue, she was carefully made to make us want to get in her head and see how she ticks (and then, if our Sheps are guys, perhaps try and see if she can function emotionally in a way that doesn't result in blood spattering up the walls).

I think if she fit that particular expectation of a criminal, very few people would want to do more than scratch her surface, and it's evident she was made to do more to us as gamers.

[Pacifien]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...
Let me make an example. On purgatory if you choose the paragon "I'm here to rescue you" line her line would have been.
Sh*t, you sound lika f-n ****.  

And yes, my experience comes from personal contact with similar people. I know it sounds like gratuatous cussing, but it really is how they talk.

We meet different kinds of people. I have also told people they sound like a **** and to **** off, but I still like to think of myself as somewhat articulate in spite of that.

So should she talk different simply because she runs in with the criminal element? Don't know because we don't know how her upbringing education-wise went. Also, she could alter her speaking style depending on who her audience is. She's among the more intelligent on Shepard's crew, so I can see her speaking in a manner that fits with the crew to a degree. Get her among gutter trash, her mannerisms can completely change. It's an element of being such a wandering spirit as she is, she has been among many types of people.

ETA: All about perception of the character in the eye of the player. I do think Jack is incredibly intelligent, intelligent enough to grab Cerberus files if you don't willingly give them to her, intelligent enough to decipher LX5 biotic implant blueprints. As Jake said earlier, what good is a stupid weapon anyway?

Modifié par Pacifien, 18 octobre 2010 - 02:33 .

[Barrendall]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

JakeMacDon wrote...

Mondo47 wrote...

I just always thought criminals talked like this in reality - guess I was wrong, huh?

*Snort*  I'd end up shot just fer laff'n. 

Seriously though, surely criminals talk like, uh, regular folk (outside of movies at least)? I mean, anyone can be as scatty as Manson without having to be stuck in a cell someplace? Is there a way criminals talk? I'm not trying to be contentious here, I'm just genuinely interested.

Unless they are members of a gang - and this is all complete assumption - probably not.  Gangs have their own way of communicating.  But then, any exclusive group does - I mean, could you decipher "cop code" on a radio without knowing it all beforehand? 

When is "Talk Like  A Pirate" day, anyway?  Can you imagine Jack 'y'ar-ing" it up? 

They don't. They really don't, at least not Jack's kind of criminal. Someone who fell in with pirates, gets tats for everything, wears s!utty clothing, and shoots people for no reason really don't talk like real people. 

My analogy with the mobster was more along the lines of how much she actually cussed and her sentence structure. She is fairly articulate for a street criminal which is odd to me.

You hear a lot more abreviations and shortenings of words than what Jack says. On rare occasions, Hollywood is actually accurate. I've met people that sound just like the comedisized gangsters of the movies.

I guess I would say don't judge a book by its cover.  Jack isn't uneducated she's just rough.  I'm sure she didn't blow up a spacestation by reading "Terrorism for Dummies".  

[adriano_c]

Barrendall111 wrote...

I guess I would say don't judge a book by its cover.  Jack isn't uneducated she's just rough.  I'm sure she didn't blow up a spacestation by reading "Terrorism for Dummies".  

Don't so readily discount the possibility that manuals like that are Cerberus-issue.

[GuardianAngel470]

Mondo47 wrote...

Ah, ok, I get you now. Basically, more base and profane, less articulate, perhaps a suggestion of a limited vocabulary.

I can't see Jack fitting that mold... I mean, she's not simply an ex gang member. She's done so many things, ran with so many different groups, which all had their own internal structures I'd imagine, that it seems only logical that Jack would be more experienced, and thus more educated (maybe only in a school-of-life way, but still educated) that your average thug. I think for her to dovetail into a stereotype or expectation of criminality would hobble the character; she's supposed to be something of a puzzle to the player - otherwise she'd spur no interest outside of how much sh*t she can break for us, and based on her dialogue, she was carefully made to make us want to get in her head and see how she ticks (and then, if our Sheps are guys, perhaps try and see if she can function emotionally in a way that doesn't result in blood spattering up the walls).

I think if she fit that particular expectation of a criminal, very few people would want to do more than scratch her surface, and it's evident she was made to do more to us as gamers.

You're probably right, but I have spent a lot of time doing just that with people I have known who talk like I have described.

No, I'm not a psychologist or therapist, not in the usual sense, but I have done more good for people I have known than their own therapist.

I'm not saying I want her to fit a stereotype, but they could have been so much more deep with it. Have her start out talking like what I described and then as you peel back the layers you find that she is way more knowledgeable and articulate than she seemed.

I have known people, myself being one of them to a degree, who hide how smart they are to avoid the trouble that would result by standing out. 

[Mondo47]

Another issue with too many contractions of sentences, slang and profanity is that it potetially alienates the audience; not everyone can keep up with a person speaking perfect English with a bit of an accent, so when you mangle a sentence even further, you risk confusing your audience. A lot of it might be to do with simple clarity.

[Gethforceone]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Mondo47 wrote...

Ah, ok, I get you now. Basically, more base and profane, less articulate, perhaps a suggestion of a limited vocabulary.

I can't see Jack fitting that mold... I mean, she's not simply an ex gang member. She's done so many things, ran with so many different groups, which all had their own internal structures I'd imagine, that it seems only logical that Jack would be more experienced, and thus more educated (maybe only in a school-of-life way, but still educated) that your average thug. I think for her to dovetail into a stereotype or expectation of criminality would hobble the character; she's supposed to be something of a puzzle to the player - otherwise she'd spur no interest outside of how much sh*t she can break for us, and based on her dialogue, she was carefully made to make us want to get in her head and see how she ticks (and then, if our Sheps are guys, perhaps try and see if she can function emotionally in a way that doesn't result in blood spattering up the walls).

I think if she fit that particular expectation of a criminal, very few people would want to do more than scratch her surface, and it's evident she was made to do more to us as gamers.

You're probably right, but I have spent a lot of time doing just that with people I have known who talk like I have described.

No, I'm not a psychologist or therapist, not in the usual sense, but I have done more good for people I have known than their own therapist.

I'm not saying I want her to fit a stereotype, but they could have been so much more deep with it. Have her start out talking like what I described and then as you peel back the layers you find that she is way more knowledgeable and articulate than she seemed.

I have known people, myself being one of them to a degree, who hide how smart they are to avoid the trouble that would result by standing out. 

Some people who are like that doesn't mean eveyone is like that.

[GuardianAngel470]

Pacifien wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...
Let me make an example. On purgatory if you choose the paragon "I'm here to rescue you" line her line would have been.
Sh*t, you sound lika f-n ****.  

And yes, my experience comes from personal contact with similar people. I know it sounds like gratuatous cussing, but it really is how they talk.

We meet different kinds of people. I have also told people they sound like a **** and to **** off, but I still like to think of myself as somewhat articulate in spite of that.

So should she talk different simply because she runs in with the criminal element? Don't know because we don't know how her upbringing education-wise went. Also, she could alter her speaking style depending on who her audience is. She's among the more intelligent on Shepard's crew, so I can see her speaking in a manner that fits with the crew to a degree. Get her among gutter trash, her mannerisms can completely change. It's an element of being such a wandering spirit as she is, she has been among many types of people.

ETA: All about perception of the character in the eye of the player. I do think Jack is incredibly intelligent, intelligent enough to grab Cerberus files if you don't willingly give them to her, intelligent enough to decipher LX5 biotic implant blueprints. As Jake said earlier, what good is a stupid weapon anyway?

I have run into the concept that if you stand out by sounding smart you end up getting into fights. So yes, it makes perfect logical sense for Jack to sound like a stereotype because in the end, these types of criminals expect it.

If you think that Rap is fed by the true lives of gang bangers you're wrong. It works the other way around. These people idolize these songs, they start acting like them. I've heard of gangs that revolve around certain songs like they revolve around certain colors or sports teams.

These people may be smarter than the rest of the world gives them credit for but they are followers. It is the whole culture of gang banging, you join because you want to fit in. You stop listening to your teachers in english and start talking like your friends and the songs you've heard.

So you may think it is a classic example of lazy writing to use a stereotype but I'm saying that it's accurate so why don't use it?

[adriano_c]

Gethforceone wrote...

Some people who are like that doesn't mean eveyone is like that.

That's the funny thing about having some myopic viewpoint. You're hardly ever aware of it.

[GuardianAngel470]

Gethforceone wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Mondo47 wrote...

Ah, ok, I get you now. Basically, more base and profane, less articulate, perhaps a suggestion of a limited vocabulary.

I can't see Jack fitting that mold... I mean, she's not simply an ex gang member. She's done so many things, ran with so many different groups, which all had their own internal structures I'd imagine, that it seems only logical that Jack would be more experienced, and thus more educated (maybe only in a school-of-life way, but still educated) that your average thug. I think for her to dovetail into a stereotype or expectation of criminality would hobble the character; she's supposed to be something of a puzzle to the player - otherwise she'd spur no interest outside of how much sh*t she can break for us, and based on her dialogue, she was carefully made to make us want to get in her head and see how she ticks (and then, if our Sheps are guys, perhaps try and see if she can function emotionally in a way that doesn't result in blood spattering up the walls).

I think if she fit that particular expectation of a criminal, very few people would want to do more than scratch her surface, and it's evident she was made to do more to us as gamers.

You're probably right, but I have spent a lot of time doing just that with people I have known who talk like I have described.

No, I'm not a psychologist or therapist, not in the usual sense, but I have done more good for people I have known than their own therapist.

I'm not saying I want her to fit a stereotype, but they could have been so much more deep with it. Have her start out talking like what I described and then as you peel back the layers you find that she is way more knowledgeable and articulate than she seemed.

I have known people, myself being one of them to a degree, who hide how smart they are to avoid the trouble that would result by standing out. 

Some people who are like that doesn't mean eveyone is like that.

There is a variable degree to it like anything else but for the most part you aren't likely to find a criminal as hardcore as Jack who talks the way she does. Not in her type of crime at least.

[adriano_c]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

There is a variable degree to it like anything else but for the most part you aren't likely to find a criminal as hardcore as Jack who talks the way she does. Not in her type of crime at least.

You spend your days consorting with former cult members, terrorists, mass-murderers, galatic pirates, and biotically-powered villains, do you?

Or is it more so deliquents stealing bicycles and slapping the elderly?

[GuardianAngel470]

adriano_c wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

There is a variable degree to it like anything else but for the most part you aren't likely to find a criminal as hardcore as Jack who talks the way she does. Not in her type of crime at least.

You spend your days consorting with former cult members, terrorists, mass-murderers, galatic pirates, and biotically-powered villains, do you?

Or is it more so deliquents stealing bicycles and slapping the elderly?

More like delinquents who grow and sell their own opium, are alchoholics by the age of 9, have been abused by their parents consistently, have lingering issues with just about any drug you can name, that sort of thing.

EDIT: and as I said, Jack's closest analog since we don't have other species, biotics, and all that is the gang banger. Just like anything else, gang bangers have degrees to their criminal activities. Some have shootouts with cops, others sell oregano to 10 year olds.

Modifié par GuardianAngel470, 18 octobre 2010 - 02:52 .