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[adriano_c]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

More like delinquents who grow and sell their own opium, are alchoholics by the age of 9, have been abused by their parents consistently, have lingering issues with just about any drug you can name, that sort of thing.

So your personal experience is knowing a guy that sells opium, an alcoholic, and some people who suffered vague 'abuse'. You think this is enough allowance to make a sweeping statement about how a fictitious sci-fi character should/shouldn't behave/communicate? Not even taking into consideration that said character is so far removed from what you've described...? Heh.

[GuardianAngel470]

If you want you can make the argument that Jack can't be classified into any of our current categories. We certainly don't have biotics or any of the other things that Jack had at her disposal while she built her reputation so it can be argued that gang bangers aren't a good analogy, which would in effect nullify my point.



If you don't think that Jack is comparable to a gang banger then obviously this is a difference of opinion and discussing it would get us nowhere.



My personal take on her character, not her dialog, is that of a futuristic gang banger. Her language in pointless spots makes me think that that was also the dev's idea for her character which for me validates my opinion.

[adriano_c]

I don't agree with your original statement, even after your attempts at elucidating/modifying.

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

did anyone else notice how jack is completely unrealistic? Her character is completely unbelievable.

All because of "how she talks."

[GuardianAngel470]

adriano_c wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

More like delinquents who grow and sell their own opium, are alchoholics by the age of 9, have been abused by their parents consistently, have lingering issues with just about any drug you can name, that sort of thing.

So your personal experience is knowing a guy that sells opium, an alcoholic, and some people who suffered vague 'abuse'. You think this is enough allowance to make a sweeping statement about how a fictitious sci-fi character should/shouldn't behave/communicate? Not even taking into consideration that said character is so far removed from what you've described...? Heh.

I had a considerably larger sample size than you imply. I've met many many gang bangers both in and out of correctional institutions that I base my generalization on.

I state that it is a generalization in my own way by saying that there are shades of grey. I'm not claiming that every street criminal necessarily talks like a moron but so far, of all the street criminals I have known, they all talk at the very least with more cussing.

I have known literally hundreds.

[Pacifien]

This is why I said earlier that we meet different kinds of people. GuardianAngel470 is comparing Jack to people met in real life and finds the characterization lacking. However, I compare Jack to people I've met in real life and find the characterization quite accurate. The people I know aren't gang bangers, but they're heavily tattooed, foul-mouthed misfits of society who happen to read Walt Whitman. Seems like Jack to me.

[GuardianAngel470]

adriano_c wrote...

I don't agree with your original statement, even after your attempts at elucidating/modifying.

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

did anyone else notice how jack is completely unrealistic? Her character is completely unbelievable.

All because of "how she talks."

Yes, in the same way that if Samara started cussing up a storm I would find her character as a Justicar unbelievable. The way someone talks is very important for how you perceive them. 
Ignoring the obvious and shallow things, word choice can give you insight into a person's intentions and who they are. They way someone describes a situation can drastically alter how you view it, and in turn can tell you about how they viewed it.

If you can tell how someone else views something you can begin to learn how they think inside their own head, which is a true measure of an individual. Actions can only tell you so much, understanding who someone is inside their own head and when they are alone eliminates much of the peer pressure effect.

This is also partly true for people on the internet. A large part of knowing someone when they are alone is knowing what they do when they aren't encumbered by consequences.

So yes, I think a way someone talks is very important as a character and as a person. If a character is somehow incongruous with how they speak compared to how they are supposed to speak were they a real person then that makes me feel as if they are unbelievable. 

Take for instance the characters in the recent Cormac McCarthy book The Road. Because the characters in the book talked like they were robots they were unbelievable to me.

[GuardianAngel470]

Pacifien wrote...

This is why I said earlier that we meet different kinds of people. GuardianAngel470 is comparing Jack to people met in real life and finds the characterization lacking. However, I compare Jack to people I've met in real life and find the characterization quite accurate. The people I know aren't gang bangers, but they're heavily tattooed, foul-mouthed misfits of society who happen to read Walt Whitman. Seems like Jack to me.

Sounds like a biker gang to me.

WHITMAN FEVER. Spreading the WORD since 1996.

[Quaay]

Jack reminds me of ppl I hang around irl. That's one reason I was drawn to her. If she talked any other way I probably wouldn't like her as much as I do.

[Pacifien]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...
So yes, I think a way someone talks is very important as a character and as a person. If a character is somehow incongruous with how they speak compared to how they are supposed to speak were they a real person then that makes me feel as if they are unbelievable.

Yes, how someone talks can be important to establishing their character, so what you're proposing is completely changing Jack's character. She would be a different character, she wouldn't be Jack.

As she is presented, I have an idea of who she is where her speaking patterns are not incongruous to me. Changing that so that it makes better sense to you essentially destroys the character for me. I might find myself to like the new version, but it's not Jack.

Modifié par Pacifien, 18 octobre 2010 - 03:16 .

[adriano_c]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Yes...

That's all well and good, and I don't necessarily disagree with you (if this was the extent of your argument) here. However,

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Let me make an example. On purgatory if you choose the paragon "I'm here to rescue you" line her line would have been.
Sh*t, you sound lika f-n ****.

There's a fundamental disconnect in what you were saying in the previous quote, and what you're saying in this one. In the latter, (combined with saying the character is completely unbelievable because of this) you're bellyaching that her "f*cks" and "sh*ts" were only one third of your expectation (an expectation rooted in dealing with some incomparable deliquents in real life). There's a problem here.

[Errationatus]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

I had a considerably larger sample size than you imply. I've met many many gang bangers both in and out of correctional institutions that I base my generalization on.

I state that it is a generalization in my own way by saying that there are shades of grey. I'm not claiming that every street criminal necessarily talks like a moron but so far, of all the street criminals I have known, they all talk at the very least with more cussing.

I have known literally hundreds.

For the most part - and I'm no psychologist - "cussing" from a gang member or some street kid serves the same purpose as the hood of a cobra or a rattlesnake's rattler. 

We 'civilized' - we don't talk like that.  No intelligent person swears and uses slang to get an idea across - we're better than that.

Except we aren't. 

If all you hear, every day, is "Yo, dawg, wutdafukup?", that's how you speak, because that's how "normal" people talk, in your experience. 

For Jack, that "sh!t, you sound like a pvssy", is simply her way of making certain there's no ambiguity:  she's not gonna believe a damn thing you say, cos' this is how she rolls. 

Until she gets to know you and her vocal idiom changes.  Let's recall a few rather important facts about Jack, that while they are not blatantly stated, they are certainly implied:

 - Jack can likely fly a spaceship.  This is not like driving your Escalade to the local MickyD's. 

 - Jack routinely uses sophisticated technology.  For example, weapons that are, in effect, minaturized railguns. Another example, the sophisticated energy manipulation technology embedded in her body.

We are not talking about beepers, cell phones and police scanners.

Jack can comprehend and eiditically remember amp specs.  This is not even remotely similar to hotwiring a car, although she could probably do that too.  Spaceships don't steal themselves, y'know.

She is not simply a street thug transposed into a futuristic setting, nor is she a futuristic street thug.  She hangs with pirates, she talks like a pirate.  She hangs with thugs, she talks like a thug.  She's in prison?  Prisons have their own slang.  She can do this because she has an edge:

Jack is a bioengineered weapon that got loose before she was finished.  She speaks the way she speaks because it's simply another weapon in her arsenal. 

That's my take on it, anyhoo.

Modifié par JakeMacDon, 18 octobre 2010 - 03:27 .

[GuardianAngel470]

adriano_c wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Yes...

That's all well and good, and I don't necessarily disagree with you (if this was the extent of your argument) here. However,

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Let me make an example. On purgatory if you choose the paragon "I'm here to rescue you" line her line would have been.
Sh*t, you sound lika f-n ****.

There's a fundamental disconnect in what you were saying in the previous quote, and what you're saying in this one. In the latter, (combined with saying the character is completely unbelievable because of this) you're bellyaching that her "f*cks" and "sh*ts" were only one third of your expectation (an expectation rooted in dealing with some incomparable deliquents in real life). There's a problem here.

As I said, if you don't think that Jack is analogous to the same thing I think she is, then the discussion should end there. I think I see enough similarities to feel that she is too different to be believable to me.

As Pacifien said, it comes down to who you feel her character is supposed to be representative of. For her, it is completely congruous. For me, it isn't because as the criminal psychopath that Jack is supposed to be with the background she implies, it doesn't work.

I think this is a matter of Bioware having too little character development for her. Thane changes from the secluded assassin to a father in training and a member of a team, Samara opens up about her unique situation and becomes your friend (paragon), Miranda thaws out even without romancing her, and mordin changes from the slightly egotistical member of the team to a humble one while Jack, Jacob, Garrus, and Tali don't change much at all.

Even if you spare aresh she says she still wants to kill everything she sees.

I haven't done her romance but for the most part the above mentioned characters changed without it. For me she never really develops to contradict my image of what Bioware was trying to do with her which is why I still think of her as unbelievable.

Her display of compassion and hurt don't count in my analysis because everyone, barring a sociopath, feels that. 

[GuardianAngel470]

And @Adriano, I don't think there was a fundamental disconnect. I admit, my first post was poorly worded but I still agree with it. I didn't express my point very well partly because I anticipated explaining it in detail after I had gotten everybody's attention.

[Weiser_Cain]

Jack is someone that was abused as a child and has never learned to deal with it properly.

[Barrendall]

adriano_c wrote...

Barrendall111 wrote...

I guess I would say don't judge a book by its cover.  Jack isn't uneducated she's just rough.  I'm sure she didn't blow up a spacestation by reading "Terrorism for Dummies".  

Don't so readily discount the possibility that manuals like that are Cerberus-issue.

lol duly noted 

[BaByUziiReV]

i love her face and lips. one of the prettiest girls i seen in games

[Weiser_Cain]

BaByUziiReV wrote...

i love her face and lips. one of the prettiest girls i seen in games

Ironically I find Miranda to be the least attractive human in the roster. As I was Playing ME1 and I noticed Ashley could give Jack a run for her money in the luscious lips department. It made me want to swap looks between Jack and Ashley and see how that worked out.

Modifié par Weiser_Cain, 18 octobre 2010 - 05:54 .

[Weiser_Cain]

yorkj86 wrote...

In retrospect, I'd have liked it if Jack's self-trained proficiency with weapons (guns) had been brought up through conversation, or mentioned in an off-hand way, such as while on a mission, or while running around a hub-world. If she expertly knew her way around weapons of all types, it would serve to make Jack seem a little less out-of-place on Shepard's team.  It wouldn't create any confusion about why she can't use those weapons on missions, because her biotic powers are toned down, too.

If I had it my way she'd be a pure Adept, no guns at all just armor.

[Fancando]

She has more depth than any other team mate in ME2, Bioware put in a lot of effort in her and that is why she is so amazing.

[Gethforceone]

I never got why people think that just because >Insert Character's Name Here< is easier/harder to kill that they aren't as important.

[Loki330]

Would she even know of it? Shepard (and most player shepards) strikes me as the sort of person who doesn't really open up to people, even those he trusts. Yes, extranet searches would probably reveal a few things, but not much I dare say.

[jtav]

Because unlike Tali/Legion/Mordin, she has no obvious "this is important later" plot hook, I imagine. I don't find her that deep (I "got" her character pretty quick and nothing really surprised me later), but I do find her interesting. If it were me, I would have actually put her in the first game.