20813 réponses à ce sujet

[Mondo47]

I've been watching the Characters You Don't Like and Why debate-thread, and a couple of things settled on my shoulders like a great big scratchy horse blanket. For a start, almost all the people who hate Jack there have some of the most amusing reasons for disliking her - ranging from the facile "she's too out of control for a military unit" (if you were really in a military unit and someone gave you a portable nuke, but if you dropped it it might explode, would you seriously say 'no, we don't need it, we'll fight impossible odds without it because it's too dangerous' - yeah, right) to the rather disturbing "I was tortured/raped/experimented on - wah wah wah" (congratulations - you have all the empathy of a stone, please leave the human race now), and don't even get me started on the "she's ugly/needs hair/has too many tattoos" <_<. But while I was reading something else came to me; it made me wonder is there an element of a person's social standing that plays a part in developing empathy to a character?

I know it sounds obvious, but bear with me. I mean, almost everyone that said they hated Jack didn't include Miranda in their argument, when both characters are very similar when you look past the surface. Both of them are loaded up to the gills with attitude, both are strong women, both have had troubled pasts (albeit Jack's eclipses Miri's completely, and anyone that thinks otherwise just needs their head examining... hating your daddy, your upbringing and finding out you're a test-tube baby do not compare in the slightest to afformentioned torture/rape/human experimentation, and if you really think they do, try and throw that argument at a European Jew who lived through the Second World War and see how far you go), and both have made rods for their own backs through their own behaviour (Jack is stuck in a loop of recidivisim because it's all she knows, and Miri keeps trying to be the "perfect" woman despite how much it makes her unhappy). Miranda though is a woman with a brilliant education, an affluent background, and let's be honest, looks like she fits into society. Jack is something from the dregs of humanity; she's like those loud, angry, foulmouthed kids that hang about on streetcorners in the dark you cross the street to avoid. She has no formal education, has lived probably her entire life hand-to-mouth, and looks more likely to stab you and take your wallet than anything else. Could this be it, then: the fact Jack through behaviour and appearance communicates the ideals of a (percieved) social strata that is well below that of Miranda? Could it be that some gamers are feeling more empathy from someone closer to their (percieved) standing in society, and that this completely bypasses any attempt to draw more from a character that is somehow "beneath" them or from too far "outside" their world?

I hope this concept doesn't come across as offensive in any way: that is about a million miles away from where I'm aiming. I'm not going all class-war on you. But one thing I do know is that humans are very prone to social programming; if we give someone in authority for instance a particular mode of dress, someone dressed in a similar fashion is often accepted in the same way. Society and class in particular levy similar boundaries on us, and I'm simply wondering if some people are unwilling to accept a lousy attitude from Jack because of it. What I'm hoping for more than anything is that this idea can be shot down in flames, to be honest, because it would frankly sadden me if this was the case. I for one was brought up to accept people based on their actions now; not their pasts, not their staus, not their appearance... and based on that at least, you see Jack change (provided you don't have casual sex with her or turn your back on her, and I don't know many women who would take that as a vote of confidence in another person to be frank). So - could society blinker some people into not seeing more than the ink, the foul f*cking language and the criminal record?

Thoughts?

[axl99]

It's strange. I'm inclined to agree, but then I think of villains people love to love like the Joker, Jack Sparrow, Hannibal Lecter, Darth Vader, and from there my mind just spirals into confusion.



The character developments had plenty missed opportunities, as we all know. In Jack's case, lots of people generally tend to be turned off by "downers" and prefer not to be dragged into their little mires. There are times it isn't a matter of having or not having empathy, but rather whenever we perceive the people in question would actually want to be empathized with. Let sleeping dogs lie, if you will. As opposed to social standing, this one belongs to social stigma.



In a military unit, you need the element of surprise particularly in guerilla/urban warfare. Jack fits neatly in that slot. Although she's not exactly a tank, she's more of a one-woman shock troop manuvering through enemy ranks and causing mass confusion from the rear.



As for aesthetics, it's always subjective. So to that I say "MEH."



I personally believe that had the devs not held back on developing Jack's character, she could've been even more popular than Miranda, Tali and Liara combined. Her backstory material was that good. What I think could've worked out in Jack's favour was showing off her sense of humour in her convos with Shepard. Laughs aside, it'd have given players a sense of tragic irony. And sides, Jack is pretty when she smiles.

[RocShemp]

All I know is that I made a point to play ME1 and ME2 as if I were living the life of Shepard. So, though my SHepard went full paragon with a hint of renegade, it wasn't my intent to have a paragon playthrough. It's just how I would have handled the situations.



As for my feelings toward Jack, when I played the demo of ME2, I was intent on romancing Miranda in the game. But when I played the first game, much to my surprise, I really liked Ashley. Sure, she seemed like a pill at first. However, once I got to know her, I really cared about her. So much so that I actually sacrificed Kaiden, after a long internal debate. So I figured I'd stay loyal to her through my ME2 playthrough. However, of all people, I'm really taken with Jack. I dunno why (she's not my type at all) but I really find her endearing (despite her rage-o-holism and general psycho demeanor). So I was debating staying loyal to Ashley despite the fact that she essentially (and understandably) dumped me, despite her email to the semi-contrary, or moving on with Jack.



I chose Jack. I was tempted to go for Tali but something felt "off". I really like Tali and she's absolutely loveable but I felt rather opportunistic choosing her. Jack felt more "right". I'm sorry about Ashley but I don't feel she's the same person I romanced two years ago. Sure, there seem to be lingering feelings but I suspect that flame died to faint embers long ago.



Jack turned out to be a very deep person. She hides behind a shell of rage and detatchment but she's actually a very deep and wounded person inside. I could actually see myself falling for a person like that in real life. And thus I chose to be with Jack.

[Barrendall]

I would consider Miranda and her type about 90% of the male population's fantasy girl.  Mine included.  What's not to like about her seriously.  She's educated, athletic, and sexy as hell.  My last ex could be Miranda (minus the accent).  It's what I'm generally attracted to in a woman these days.  Then there is Jack.  Again smart, athletic, and sexy, but untamed.   I've dated women with her kind of fire before and it was great, for awhile.  They didn't have the same experiences that Jack had of course but the attitude was there and it made the relationship very interesting.  So although I sort of search out the safe girl like Miranda, I will always have a soft spot for girls with Jack's fire.

Modifié par Barrendall111, 26 octobre 2010 - 06:11 .

[adriano_c]

Mondo47 wrote...

"she's too out of control for a military unit"

I don't know why, but this actually made me laugh. I mean, really, that's some pedantic-nerd-space-commander reasoning right there.

Could it be that some gamers are feeling more empathy from someone closer to their (percieved) standing in society, and that this completely bypasses any attempt to draw more from a character that is somehow "beneath" them or from too far "outside" their world?

I think you're looking too far into it. These guys have about as much in common with a perennial favourite like Garrus, but that doesn't stop them from slobbering his knob.

[adriano_c]

axl99 wrote...

I personally believe that had the devs not held back on developing Jack's character, she could've been even more popular than Miranda, Tali and Liara combined. Her backstory material was that good. What I think could've worked out in Jack's favour was showing off her sense of humour in her convos with Shepard.

Pretty spot on. She needed some sort of positive hook to attract a broader range.

[royceclemens]

I think it has something to do with the differences between a first-person narrative experience and a third person narrative experience.

While ME2 isn't nearly as first person with its options as most of BioWare's catalogue, the same priniciples still stand: You, through this customizable avatar called "Shepard" are interacting with a world that reacts back to you. Games are more first-person than any other artform.

The fact of the matter is in real life, most of us wouldn't deal with a violent criminal who would fill us full of holes if we looked at them cross-eyed. So it would go to follow that few of us in real life would want anything to do with Jack. I agree with Mondo about this to a point. I'm going to hypothesize that fans of Jack, on the whole, distance themselves from ME2 entirely, saying that "This happened to Shepard," as opposed to "This happened to me." How many conversations have we had about our own preferred alignment for the Jack romance? I'm not going to go so far as to say that's something fans of other characters don't think about, but I haven't seen folks talk about it all that often.

The more willing you are to externalize the game, the more likely you are, in my opinion, to like Jack. This is why with a video game, a medium number of people like her. But take a character with whom she bears more than a passing resemblence (the only example coming to mind right now is Lisbeth Salander from THE GIRL WITH THE DRAGON TATTOO) and put her in a more third person medium like a book, and she'll sell millions of copies.

Long story short (too late): Dealing with Jack can be a colossal pain in the ass. Watching someone else deal with Jack can yield sympathy and insight.

Modifié par royceclemens, 26 octobre 2010 - 07:10 .

[RocShemp]

I see your point, royceclemens but I counter that with the fact that a character like Miranda is the safe "works in context of the hero's journey" type girl. The fact that Jack is so polarizing is because no one really wants the hero to get aqirl that messed up. As I said, when I first played the game, I wanted to romance Miranda cos she felt like the hero's girl. Likewise, I thought, from a narrative perspective, that Ashley should have died in ME1 to give that element of tragedy in Shepard's background.

However, when I chose to play it as if I were Shepard, I realized that I wouldn't sacrifice Ashley (despite Kaiden being my friend) and that I would fall for someone like Jack over Miranda. Miranda (or, more to the point, Yvonne Strahovski) may be my kind of fantasy girl because her looks but Jack is the kind of woman I would fall for. And that's not to take anything away from Miranda or Tali who were well written and developed. But, if I was truly living all this, I would be with Jack (much to my own surprise).

Modifié par RocShemp, 26 octobre 2010 - 10:59 .

[Mondo47]

adriano_c wrote...

Mondo47 wrote...

"she's too out of control for a military unit"

I don't know why, but this actually made me laugh. I mean, really, that's some pedantic-nerd-space-commander reasoning right there.

I know... some people play a few video games and they think they're the next Rommel or Monty. Newsflash, kids - videogames ain't real life. Try reading a little military history and see how many crazy risks a real commander of men takes. Plus, uh, let's not forget that this is The Dirty Dozen in space - and they took Maggott along... and he actually was a dyed-in-the-wool psychopath of the stab-women-to-death-for-fun variety.

[Icinix]

Mondo47 wrote...

(snipped)
... Newsflash, kids - videogames ain't real life...
(snipped)

 BULL****!!???

< runs screaming >

[Elyvern]

Hello all,

First time poster here but been lurking quite a while. Personally, I don't think social strata has anything to do with my like or dislike of in-game characters. The games are subtle (and tasteful) enough not to make such things (and you can also argue that race would also be one such consideration) a factor.

The problem of alot of people seeing Jack as a dangerous wildcard is their inability to divorce the existing command structure on board the Normandy from ME1 to ME2. In ME1, I actually felt personal resevations about inviting people like Garrus, Wrex and Tali on board. It felt as if I was doing so with the permissive blind-eye of the alliance command. ME2 is all about a desperate mission where anyone who can make a difference counts and nominally, Shepard's authority can be said to end the moment he gets every squadmate to aim their guns in the right direction on a mission. Of course it doesn't help that in-game we are given options for Shepard to try and assert military-style discipline which any blind fool can see wouldn't go well on such a disparate bunch of people. What we're end with is some mix-signal attitude limbo where characters like Jacob would follow Shepard's orders to the letter despite disagreeing, but in short, adhering to the chain of command like good soldiers, and then there are characters like Jack and Grunt to a lesser extent that pose as a rude shock to that status quo.

On another topic, the more I play ME2, the more I wish that there were more friendship dialogue available for all the potential LIs. It's an insult to imply that all the squadmates have nothing more to reveal to Shepard if he/she is incapable of fulfilling them romantically. I'd think that for someone like Jack who has been burnt many times by people taking advantage of her emotional needs might be more receptive of friendship rather than romance because friendship is a less pressurising way of easing herself into the task of trusting another person again.

[Mondo47]

Welcome, Elyvern - no need to lurk, we're all nice here!

Well, the whole social stratification thing was only an idea... considering the response thus far, it seems a probably intangible one (which is probably a good thing, all things considered).

The friendship thing is dead on, but only yesterday I had a chat with the stealth dialogue hero that is Jacob Taylor with one of my Femme-Sheps, taking a mainly Renegade/Neutral set of responses flirting with him... he got pretty damn amazingly flustered, admitting to having looked at Shepard that way (well, he had looked though), and I was given the choice of either taking the upper-right option of continuing it, or the lower-right, which was "Ok... friends it is." I just had to take it, having never seen it before, and the dialogue was pretty neat, if a little short, with Jacob being fine with having "no baggage going in, no baggage coming out" and now the relationship is in brofist territory.

If only they'd done that in a few other places... but I guess it's all down to space on the disks in the end.

[Elyvern]

Kudos to you then. Jacob is far down on my list of characters I'm attempting to change my mind on. I'll be outright honest and say I'm not sure I can ever be convinced to romance Jack as Shepard, mostly because my favourite character is Miranda. But like you mention, both characters actually share alot in common. I'd also agree that Jack has by far, a more traumatic background than Miranda. But I'd really like it if Jack can rise above her self-destructive cycle without depending on Shepard as a crutch. I do feel that a survivor like her would have the strength of character to recognise she has more to offer than simply reacting and acting out of sheer anger at the injustice done to her.

[Mondo47]

I do see what you mean there, and hell, I do agree to a point, but I think Jack has found that her own little self-destructive cycle is the only thing that works for her; this is Jack on her own, surviving any way she can, and as much as she is circling the drain doing it she can't see how close to vanishing she is. Anything else just leads to getting used. Or getting hurt - which is even worse. Jack can't see her own value beyond being the lead pipe to smash someone's brains out; she's a tool (like Miranda) and is content to be one, to be used for sex and biotics and survive without those pains that never go away (Murtock said he loved her and look what happened to him - bam, Jack chooses not to risk living again and goes back to being that blunt tool to destroy things).

I can see where you're coming from, but just like Miranda needs a gentle nudge from Shep to stop looking at herself as a cog in a machine, Jack seems to need someone to pick her up and show her she has value in her own right as a person. I doubt very much, based on her life experience, she could do it alone.

[Ieldra]

Mondo47 wrote...
Miranda though is a woman with a brilliant education, an affluent background, and let's be honest, looks like she fits into society. Jack is something from the dregs of humanity; she's like those loud, angry, foulmouthed kids that hang about on streetcorners in the dark you cross the street to avoid. She has no formal education, has lived probably her entire life hand-to-mouth, and looks more likely to stab you and take your wallet than anything else. Could this be it, then: the fact Jack through behaviour and appearance communicates the ideals of a (percieved) social strata that is well below that of Miranda? Could it be that some gamers are feeling more empathy from someone closer to their (percieved) standing in society, and that this completely bypasses any attempt to draw more from a character that is somehow "beneath" them or from too far "outside" their world?

I think the social stratum is a secondary element. Being educated is a point of attraction, yes, but being uneducated isn't necessarily a reason for dislike.
I can't speak for anyone else, but for me Miranda and Jack are at opposite ends regarding attitude and  personality, and that's the deciding factor: Jack is impulsive and volatile, and her attitude to killing is outright disturbing, so I feel I can't trust her, can't let my guard down while with her. Miranda is more emotionally detached and more susceptible to reasoned arguments. When Miranda kills, I can always understand why even if I don't agree with it. Around someone like Miranda, I can let my guard down once I know the areas where I must tread carefully.
That feeling of distrust is also the reason why I say I'd prefer not to have Jack on the mission. She has some character development that makes her less volatile, but only if you romance her, so if you don't you don't get any indication that she becomes more dependable. The only time I emotionally connected with her outside of her loyalty mission was when she was in the hold-the-line group on the Collector base and I heard her heartfelt curse about the odds she had to face there. 

I hope I've put this in a way that won't offend anyone here. I have empathy with Jack (who wouldn't), I also think she's beautiful under her tattoos, but she's the kind of person I'd rather not have around me for any length of time. BTW, I don't agree that Miranda is a "safe" option. That would be Tali. A Shepard/Miranda relationship would be just as high-tension as Shepard/Jack, only in a totally different way.

[Barrendall]

Ieldra2 wrote...


I think the social stratum is a secondary element. Being educated is a point of attraction, yes, but being uneducated isn't necessarily a reason for dislike.
I can't speak for anyone else, but for me Miranda and Jack are at opposite ends regarding attitude and  personality, and that's the deciding factor: Jack is impulsive and volatile, and her attitude to killing is outright disturbing, so I feel I can't trust her, can't let my guard down while with her. Miranda is more emotionally detached and more susceptible to reasoned arguments. When Miranda kills, I can always understand why even if I don't agree with it. Around someone like Miranda, I can let my guard down once I know the areas where I must tread carefully.
That feeling of distrust is also the reason why I say I'd prefer not to have Jack on the mission. She has some character development that makes her less volatile, but only if you romance her, so if you don't you don't get any indication that she becomes more dependable. The only time I emotionally connected with her outside of her loyalty mission was when she was in the hold-the-line group on the Collector base and I heard her heartfelt curse about the odds she had to face there. 

I hope I've put this in a way that won't offend anyone here. I have empathy with Jack (who wouldn't), I also think she's beautiful under her tattoos, but she's the kind of person I'd rather not have around me for any length of time. BTW, I don't agree that Miranda is a "safe" option. That would be Tali. A Shepard/Miranda relationship would be just as high-tension as Shepard/Jack, only in a totally different way.

Although I respect your opinion I disagree.  Jack's attitude and bragging about killing after she gets recruited becomes more bravado than anything else.  She can definitely back her words up but it's a defense mechanism.  Everyone on-board knows how dangerous she is, but it's her way of maintaining that wall between her and potential emotional bonds with the crew on Normandy.  Story-wise she obviously can be trusted to do her job otherwise why would she be allowed free access to the ship and have weapons in her little hidey-hole?  If Miranda had not come across all "Holier than thou" from the first and let Shepard handle the briefing I don't think there would as much tension between the two.  As it is, Miranda sort of brought it on herself.

Modifié par Barrendall111, 26 octobre 2010 - 05:15 .

[adriano_c]

Besides, what's worse? Flagrant antagonism or pithy condescension?

[Ryzaki]

Barrendall111 wrote...


Although I respect your opinion I disagree.  Jack's attitude and bragging about killing after she gets recruited becomes more bravado than anything else.  She can definitely back her words up but it's a defense mechanism.  Everyone on-board knows how dangerous she is, but it's her way of maintaining that wall between her and potential emotional bonds with the crew on Normandy.  Story-wise she obviously can be trusted to do her job otherwise why would she be allowed free access to the ship and have weapons in her little hidey-hole?  If Miranda had not come across all "Holier than thou" from the first and let Shepard handle the briefing I don't think there would as much tension between the two.  As it is, Miranda sort of brought it on herself.

I'm going to respectfully place some input: Doesn't Jack equate killing with pleasure? It's a lot more dangerous having someone like that around than someone like Miranda who will only kill you if you give her reason. 

And the whole allowing her on the ship was a bit of railroading. I have several Sheps who wouldn't recruit her if not forced by the power of the plot. (I can't even blame TIM because those dossiers are optional after Horizon). 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 26 octobre 2010 - 05:37 .

[Mondo47]

I think part of Jack's attitude towards killing is based on her having no other recourse in her life to act as a comparison; you kick a dog often enough it becomes hostile to anyone getting within mauling distance - you get too close, chomp. Due to conditioning in her childhood, violence is a simple and pleasurable way of dealing with any potential threat, even where the threat is negligable or even nonexistant. It's safer than trusting, because every time Jack's tried that she's been burned... it's just reflex to her. And for that reason I find it understandable, if not particularly desirable.

To continue the dog analogy, I have a friend that resocialises and rehomes American Pitbulls; she's had to deal with dogs that have been abused or used in dogfighting, and usually when she gets these animals they're sixty pounds of prehistoric ferocity and scar tissue... yet she's never been given more than a bit of a nip, and she's thus-far had a 100% success rate of making these man-made monsters back into dogs. In the same respect, there's certainly hope for Jack; her feelings of bitterness and heartache over the loss of Murtock before she could understand he was genuine demonstrate there's more to her than the rage-train a lot of people just see her as. There's every chance that a Jack who spends enough time in the messed-up family unit that is the Normandy could begin to find her way back to being a woman again - even without a Shep who becomes her lover... probably take longer, and there'd be a few thrown punches here and there, but it's pretty damn obvious that Jack is neither psychotic nor irredeemable.

Though the one thing I cannot understand at all is the people that turn round and say they don't like her because she tells Shepard to f*ck off... for that to have happened you've got to have kicked the dog yet again, haven't you? So your right to ****** and moan about it is on a par with putting your hand in a fire and complaining about how much it burns. And if it just comes down to a character not agreeing with everything the Almighty Shepard says... I'd rather have characters that aren't blithe nodding yes-men or placid sex objects, thank you very much.

[Barrendall]

Ryzaki wrote...

Barrendall111 wrote...


Although I respect your opinion I disagree.  Jack's attitude and bragging about killing after she gets recruited becomes more bravado than anything else.  She can definitely back her words up but it's a defense mechanism.  Everyone on-board knows how dangerous she is, but it's her way of maintaining that wall between her and potential emotional bonds with the crew on Normandy.  Story-wise she obviously can be trusted to do her job otherwise why would she be allowed free access to the ship and have weapons in her little hidey-hole?  If Miranda had not come across all "Holier than thou" from the first and let Shepard handle the briefing I don't think there would as much tension between the two.  As it is, Miranda sort of brought it on herself.

I'm going to respectfully place some input: Doesn't Jack equate killing with pleasure? It's a lot more dangerous having someone like that around than someone like Miranda who will only kill you if you give her reason. 

And the whole allowing her on the ship was a bit of railroading. I have several Sheps who wouldn't recruit her if not forced by the power of the plot. (I can't even blame TIM because those dossiers are optional after Horizon). 

Pragia had an implant that medicated her when she fought.  It was a programming experiment to reward her when they would pit the students against each other.  It's only natural that after fighting and killing it would trigger those responses after being exposed that long.  Her rationalization on killing was self preservation or revenge.  I'm not saying her reactions were correct and I'm not condoning her actions but her past and education dictated almost everything she did.  Miranda murdered Wilson without a second thought how is that any different?  Besides the fact that Miranda didn't have residual memories of drugs flooding her system to create a false euphoria for her choices.

[Elyvern]

Mondo47 wrote...

I do see what you mean there, and hell, I do agree to a point, but I think Jack has found that her own little self-destructive cycle is the only thing that works for her; this is Jack on her own, surviving any way she can, and as much as she is circling the drain doing it she can't see how close to vanishing she is. Anything else just leads to getting used. Or getting hurt - which is even worse. Jack can't see her own value beyond being the lead pipe to smash someone's brains out; she's a tool (like Miranda) and is content to be one, to be used for sex and biotics and survive without those pains that never go away (Murtock said he loved her and look what happened to him - bam, Jack chooses not to risk living again and goes back to being that blunt tool to destroy things).
I can see where you're coming from, but just like Miranda needs a gentle nudge from Shep to stop looking at herself as a cog in a machine, Jack seems to need someone to pick her up and show her she has value in her own right as a person. I doubt very much, based on her life experience, she could do it alone.

I can see your point, and thank you for enlightening me. For the record, please don't construe this as Miranda fans attempting to troll this thread. We're currently in a discussion about how both of them could actually achieve a sort of working relationship despite the possibility of never being friends, which basically involves displaying a modicum of respect on the part of both characters. Speaking personally for myself, I've liked a number of characters that are similar to Jack before, although my experiences with such characters were probably mitigated by the fact that I wasn't on the receiving end of their tongues or attitudes. And I'd like to say her choice of language doesn't bother me one bit, I'm pretty foul-mouthed myself in real life.   

[Mondo47]

Nah, you guys aren't trolling at all - what we tend to consider trolling here is just blankly saying Jack's a b*tch with no solid reason why or saying she'd be much better if she had normal hair... that one in particular brings out the sarcasm here

[Epantiras]

Ryzaki wrote...
I'm going to respectfully place some input: Doesn't Jack equate killing with pleasure? It's a lot more dangerous having someone like that around than someone like Miranda who will only kill you if you give her reason.

I admit in my first playthrough I told Samara to hold the biotic bubble instead of Jack because I thought she was going to betray me (even if loyal). But that's the thing I like/dislike in videogames: never trusting questgivers (Nassana Dantius anyone?) nor my party members (Yoshimo, Bastila and so on).

I think the real problem about Shepard recruiting people like Jack is that Shepard is "on the side of the law". You can be a renegade, but you cannot say "go to hell, I'm going rogue" and become a space pirate... at least, not in ME1 nor ME2. The same could be said for Dragon Age, where our Warden, beacon of hope ™, ends up recruiting an Orlesian bard, a Qunari (read krogan), an apostate mage and Puss in Boots an assassin sent to kill you (not to mention your old nemesis). However, in Dragon Age you have a choice to say "no way, I'm not recruiting you" and everyone's happy about that. In ME2 you cannot, and some people are not that happy about that.

[Ryzaki]

Barrendall111 wrote...

Pragia had an implant that medicated her when she fought.  It was a programming experiment to reward her when they would pit the students against each other.  It's only natural that after fighting and killing it would trigger those responses after being exposed that long.  Her rationalization on killing was self preservation or revenge.  I'm not saying her reactions were correct and I'm not condoning her actions but her past and education dictated almost everything she did.  Miranda murdered Wilson without a second thought how is that any different?  Besides the fact that Miranda didn't have residual memories of drugs flooding her system to create a false euphoria for her choices.

But she still equates it with pleasure is my point. Miranda murdered Wilson because he was a threat. That's a valid, rational reason. Killing someone because it feels good and because you feel that with everyone you kill you'll live longer...isn't the same thing. 

Edit: Uh...sorry! I didn't mean to barge in the thread! 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 26 octobre 2010 - 06:30 .