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[Ryzaki]

yorkj86 wrote...

She was drugged up and made to feel good when she fought and killed the other children.  In that drugged up state, she was removed from the hell of being at Pragia, which, relative to herself, was her reward.  It's classical/Pavlovian conditioning.  It doesn't excuse her actions and her behavior, but Jack is the way she is because of stimulus and reward, and not a mental condition.  If she wanted to, Jack could break herself (likely painfully) out of this cycle.

But the fact she's like that at the moment Shep recruits her, if she was optional I wouldn't have a problem with her because...hey my Shep's not forced to drag her along.  I'm not trying to rag on her or anything but comparing her to Miranda in terms of safety is simply incorrect. Miranda is consistent and stable...Jack much less so. 

Epantiras wrote...

I think the real problem about Shepard recruiting people like Jack is that Shepard is "on the side of the law". You can be a renegade, but you cannot say "go to hell, I'm going rogue" and become a space pirate... at least, not in ME1 nor ME2. The same could be said for Dragon Age, where our Warden, beacon of hope ™, ends up recruiting an Orlesian bard, a Qunari (read krogan), an apostate mage and Puss in Boots an assassin sent to kill you (not to mention your old nemesis). However, in Dragon Age you have a choice to say "no way, I'm not recruiting you" and everyone's happy about that. In ME2 you cannot, and some people are not that happy about that.

Yes. I agree. If Jack was optional I don't think I would dislike her as much as I do. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 26 octobre 2010 - 06:35 .

[Ryzaki]

yorkj86 wrote...

What happens if you use a save-file editor to remove Jack from the ship, after the Derelict Reaper mission? There is a flag for "Jack acquired". Does it just crash the game?

I've never tried. Hm...I might give it a whirl though. Still the fact is BW dropped the ball with some of the companions. The only forced ones that make sense are Legion and Mordin. And you can give away Legion. I'm not saying they don't make sense to recruit...they just don't make sense as forced recruits. If you didn't recruit the right people you should have to suffer the consequences. Some of the handholding in BW games have been getting on my nerves lately. Plus the SM would've been a lot more fun if you only had like 3 people with you XD. 

[Barrendall]

Ryzaki wrote...

Barrendall111 wrote...

Pragia had an implant that medicated her when she fought.  It was a programming experiment to reward her when they would pit the students against each other.  It's only natural that after fighting and killing it would trigger those responses after being exposed that long.  Her rationalization on killing was self preservation or revenge.  I'm not saying her reactions were correct and I'm not condoning her actions but her past and education dictated almost everything she did.  Miranda murdered Wilson without a second thought how is that any different?  Besides the fact that Miranda didn't have residual memories of drugs flooding her system to create a false euphoria for her choices.

But she still equates it with pleasure is my point. Miranda murdered Wilson because he was a threat. That's a valid, rational reason. Killing someone because it feels good and because you feel that with everyone you kill you'll live longer...isn't the same thing. 

Edit: Uh...sorry! I didn't mean to barge in the thread! 

Heh it's not a problem, you aren't barging or trolling.    Although we disagree it has been a civil discussion.  On that note I still disagree.  She doesn't equate killing with pleasure she just points out that after fighting it still triggers the memory response of the drugs that were fed to her.  She wouldn't have broken out if she was ok with what Cerberus was doing to her in the first place.  As to her attitude of "Kill or be killed", she had no one until Murtock to educate her that necessarily isn't how you have to live your life.  And he died on her... heheh well back to the old philosophy.  We agree why Miranda murdered Wilson but what I'm trying to get across is that there were other options there besides just blithely putting a bullet in his brain-pan. Especially when there were three fully armed people to incapacitate him and bring him in for interrogation.

[Mondo47]

Another thing to bear in mind here is we only have Jack's word to go on most of the time. Jack is not an entirely unreliable narrator to her past, but a lot of her attitude and carefully-slipped-into-conversation tales of murder and criminality are another facet of her defense mechanism; it keeps people at arm's length, stops them from getting close enough to hurt her. It's like the dog analogy again; Jack's the dog that barks loudly and fiercely to keep you from coming into her territory not because she's the big and bad (which ok, she is to a degree), but because inside she's actually afraid of your intent... people that get close betray her, and that hurts more than any punch, kick, knifeblade or bullet, because those wounds don't heal.

Just to reiterate one of our old maxims in here, it's not so much Miri's killing of Wilson that's incapable of understanding on our part, but her semantic defense of Cerberus when Jack goes to pick a fight with her. Yes, Jack's in the wrong because she's gone there for no reason other that to try and rub Miranda up the wrong way, but Miranda's response to it all is... well... beneath a woman of her obvious intelligence. She's seen the report, if she went to Pragia she saw it first hand, but to continue to defend her surrogate family so blithely in the face of someone who is a direct victim of their handiwork (be it only tangenitally or not) is like telling Sarah Tobias that the scumbags that stood around and watched her get gang-raped are in no way culpable. It's a slap in the face; either a damn cruel one (and kinda stupid considering Jack pulls spacestation bulkheads to bits effortlessly - it's like attacking an elephant with a Nerf gun) or a lousy attempt to try and wash her hands clean. Miranda even admits to Shepard when asked about it that the experimentation in Pragia was wrong... if she'd only said it to Jack. She really would have been the bigger woman then. Instead, she just collapses into schoolyard rules. It's disappointing. And it's the only thing I still carry over as dislike for Miranda; Jack knows no better, Miri really should. I know it's only there as a conflict mechanic in the game, but it really makes the least amount of sense; Legion and Tali's mistrusts, and the removed ones of Mordin and Grunt make sense, but Jack and Miri... I guess I'll never be sold on it.

[Quaay]

Calling Jack a mistake was a low blow and I have a hard time forgiving Miranda for that.

[Ryzaki]

Barrendall111 wrote...


Heh it's not a problem, you aren't barging or trolling.    Although we disagree it has been a civil discussion.  On that note I still disagree.  She doesn't equate killing with pleasure she just points out that after fighting it still triggers the memory response of the drugs that were fed to her.  She wouldn't have broken out if she was ok with what Cerberus was doing to her in the first place.  As to her attitude of "Kill or be killed", she had no one until Murtock to educate her that necessarily isn't how you have to live your life.  And he died on her... heheh well back to the old philosophy.  We agree why Miranda murdered Wilson but what I'm trying to get across is that there were other options there besides just blithely putting a bullet in his brain-pan. Especially when there were three fully armed people to incapacitate him and bring him in for interrogation.

Treason is usually met with the offending person being killed. So I wasn't overly broken up about it. I understand where Jack is coming from too. Sure those stories are defense mechanisms but they're also true. My Sheps for the most part are somewhat cautious and would've kicked Jack off the ship after the "Pirate" convo.The more douchebag ones might've handed her over to Cerberus again. 

Though I don't agree that (not to quoted poster) Miranda was the one in the wrong in the arguement. Jack has no right barging into Miranda's office. Had I a choice I'd of kicked Jack of the ship right then. Regardless of anything else. She goes in there and starts throwing things around. So...I have no sympathy for her in that situation. Sure her life sucked but blaming Miranda for it? Not the way to go about it. Sure Miranda could've admitted it was wrong but why should she apologize to Jack after her office has been broken into and she's been threatened? There's being the better person and there's being a doormat. 

And I saw Miranda's "You were a mistake" as the whole Talitha? (sp) experiment being something Cerberus never should've done in the first place.

Edit: I'm going to make another thread about this. I feel like I'm violating the support thread. *leaves* 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 26 octobre 2010 - 07:11 .

[Barrendall]

Quaay wrote...

Calling Jack a mistake was a low blow and I have a hard time forgiving Miranda for that.

I think she only said that in the heat of the moment.  I imagine we have all said stupid stuff in an argument when we were either hurt or angry but it seems like Miranda precipitated the antagonism between them from the very start.  Again I feel if she had left the initial briefing to Shepard and kept her "Holier than thou" speech to herself things wouldn't have escalated to that boiling point.  I could be wrong there too however. 

Modifié par Barrendall111, 26 octobre 2010 - 07:12 .

[Epantiras]

Quaay wrote...

Calling Jack a mistake was a low blow and I have a hard time forgiving Miranda for that.

Reminds me of Captain Kirrahe saying that letting krogans live was "a mistake", right in front of Wrex... some people never learn...

[Mondo47]

Epantiras wrote...

Reminds me of Captain Kirrahe saying that letting krogans live was "a mistake", right in front of Wrex... some people never learn...

Yeah, it's definately a case of "Didn't your momma ever teach you not to pick a fight with something that outweighs you by three quarters of a ton?" Miranda is well aware of what Jack is capable of... it's just not smart. It's like flicking a sleeping bear's arse with a towel: asking for bother

[Barrendall]

lol Mondo, yeah Jack has all the delicacy of a Krogan that's why I constantly see Grunt as the only one capable and willing to be friends with Jack outside of Shepard.

[Errationatus]

Jack's problem is that she's perfectly plausible.

Miranda's a fantasy girl.  She's the hyper-sexualized uber-female all 16 year olds have been told they want.  Unfortunately, in ME2 she's also a cold, calculating b!tch that does not get redeemed.  She only gets vaguely approachable.  Oh, and she will put out - again to appease the 16 year olds. 

All that deep stuff is an invention by those trying to justify why they like her.  No real criticism - Miranda's fans make her almost tolerable.  Pity the in-game Miranda is just so repugnant as a human being.  I romanced her with a Shepard simply to explore permuations, but she did not appeal.  Miranda's a reward for leaning toward Cerberus, and she herself in pursuit of 'the best' as she sees it.  It's a pity she can't have babies.  I wonder how long the relationship with Shep will last in light of that revelation?  Any other certainly ended rather abruptly when not absolutely perfect.

Ick.

Jack, on the other hand, is well, real.  As real as a character gets in the game, anyway.  Probably why people don't like her. 

This "you can't trust Jack because she's a loose cannon' jazz is also nonsense.  Jack is what she appears to be, and you can actually trust that.  What Jack is stands right there, tattooed glory and all.  Personally, I trust that.  That takes guts.

There's no pretense in Jack.  She doesn't have it, never learned, never got the chance  (A minor point:  Jack says warm feelings from a fight - not killing - a small distinction, but a telling one, IMO).  Miranda probably has more blood on her hands than Jack's ever dreamed of - things she won't share because it would show her as the ruthless ice queen she fancies herself.

Jack's biggest secrets probably involve a love of Impressionists and tuba solos.  What is there to hide when you can proudly proclaim to any and all that not only can you fvck their sh!t up, your CV is loaded with sh!t fvcked so thoroughly that cryo-solitary is the best choice for your in-prison comfort? 

Jack hides only the one thing she's managed to hold on - that bit that - even after all the rape and torture and hell - still hopes there is something better.  She couldn't fall for Shepard if she didn't have it.  It's not something he can give her or 'fix'.  She has to have it to begin with, or nothing would happen. 

That's real strength.

Sorry about the ramble.  Just to touch on what Mondo said, I think it's more a matter of age/maturity, than social strata that determines which of the LI people are going to gravitate.  It may take a broader perspective to see past Jack's superficialities, and lack of basic immediate sex appeal (entirely subjective anyway).  She's not common at all, and that's probably where the trouble come in.

[Mondo47]

Barrendall111 wrote...

lol Mondo, yeah Jack has all the delicacy of a Krogan that's why I constantly see Grunt as the only one capable and willing to be friends with Jack outside of Shepard.

Yeah... as you know I've tooled Grunt and Jack as going together like soup and salad in my quickfics. I can also see a Herzog/Kinski dynamic developing between Jack and Miranda eventually (vacilating between empathy and wanting to murder each other at a moment's notice ). I can see her abiding Kasumi, too, simply because it seems to be in Kasumi's nature to befriend everyone or charm them somewhat and I doubt she'd let up until Jack just put up with her. I can see her glaring at Joker to make him hobble by a little faster for amusement. I can see her chiding Tali for being naive though probably never going too far with it because as ruthless as she is, Jack has been the kicked puppy before... plus she is a friend of Shepard's - that might go far for Dr Chakwas too.

The thing is, I can't see her really interacting with anyone else on the crew beyond a cursory grunt or a "Whatever." Garrus is too stiff, Thane too much like a book of riddles, Samara too stringent, Jacob too wishy-washy, Mordin too damn intellectual, Zaeed too much like one of her perenial faceless enemies.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I finally got around to romancing Jack in my latest game. And even before I did it was my favorite one. One my first playthrough I sort of almost went through with it even though I was focusing on staying loyal to Ashley. I liked the final scene but I wish their had been a couple more lines of dialogue before starting (well that and a post suicide mission dialogue that makes sense now). Funnily enough I'd gotten the impression that she went through an entire personality shift from reading about it on the boards before.

One thing that I still am a little wondering about is this one line Jack has.

I distinctly remember the first time around when I asked Jack about our mission she said "I owe you Shepard" in response. Eventually that changed to "I know when someone has got murder on their minds..."

I figured it had something to do with whether or not her romance was active but when I played again with my Shepard who did go all the way through the romance with her, I didn't hear that at all.

Did anyone else hear that line or did I somehow imagine the whole thing? Was I supposed to hear her say that to me at some point?

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 27 octobre 2010 - 02:55 .

[axl99]

Hn. I said all l could possibly say in the Miranda vs Jack thread, but at this point so late into the debate I don't think my opinion matters anymore.

Modifié par axl99, 27 octobre 2010 - 04:00 .

[adriano_c]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

I distinctly remember the first time around when I asked Jack about our mission she said "I owe you Shepard" in response. Eventually that changed to "I know when someone has got murder on their minds..."

I figured it had something to do with whether or not her romance was active but when I played again with my Shepard who did go all the way through the romance with her, I didn't hear that at all.

Did anyone else hear that line or did I somehow imagine the whole thing? Was I supposed to hear her say that to me at some point?

Hrm, the only line I can think of that you might be confused about is when it's discovered that the Asari merc cowering in the closet (I think on Thane's recruitment?) is a murderer. She says something along the lines of "I knew I smelled murder on that ****."

[Loki330]

Barrendall111 wrote...

I would consider Miranda and her type about 90% of the male population's fantasy girl.  Mine included.  What's not to like about her seriously.  She's educated, athletic, and sexy as hell.

Off the top of my head:

Not redhead
No peircings
No tattoos
No scars
Australian accent

Thing is, 'perfect' is highly subjective. I wrote and uploaded a fanfic featuring Kelly last week on ff.net (nearby SHameless Plug detector explodes) and I had a line in it which summed up both that Shepard and my own opinion about Miranda, which was to the effect: "She's a perfect woman, but not mine."

Jack isn't my ideal woman (I like to run my fingers through hair for example, she is abrasive and she's very definately not someone you can take home to meet the parents without warning them in advance. She's 'better' than Miranda for me personally though.

[MHRazer]

adriano_c wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

I distinctly remember the first time around when I asked Jack about our mission she said "I owe you Shepard" in response. Eventually that changed to "I know when someone has got murder on their minds..."

I figured it had something to do with whether or not her romance was active but when I played again with my Shepard who did go all the way through the romance with her, I didn't hear that at all.

Did anyone else hear that line or did I somehow imagine the whole thing? Was I supposed to hear her say that to me at some point?

Hrm, the only line I can think of that you might be confused about is when it's discovered that the Asari merc cowering in the closet (I think on Thane's recruitment?) is a murderer. She says something along the lines of "I knew I smelled murder on that ****."

She does say "I know when someone's got murder on their minds" at one point when you ask for her opinion on the mission. I can't remember at what point she switches to/from that line though, but it is there. 

[Mondo47]

I think it's when she's the squadmate that comments on Elnora's little diary recording bragging about offing the volus, isn't it?

In other news, I just posted in the Miranda thread... let's see if I get firebombed again...

And I didn't! I'm starting to think the Miridians have gone all reasonable on us! 

Modifié par Mondo47, 27 octobre 2010 - 02:05 .

[Ieldra]

Hi everyone,

I thought you might be interested in a fanfic where Miranda and Jack develop some respect for each other with none of them being out of character. I think it's rather well done.

Three Steps Forward by Thessilian

@Mondo47:
Were you flamebombed? I'm sorry for that.

@JakeMacDon:

All that deep stuff is an invention by those trying to justify why they like [Miranda].[...]I think it's more a matter of age/maturity, than social strata that determines which of the LI people are going to gravitate.

Let's just say we do not see it that way. I could as easily claim every "deep" thing you say about Jack is invention by her fans, and I'd be equally wrong because I haven't spent a lot of time thinking about her. None of us can see into the heads of fictional characters, so we all try to make plausible interpretations. For instance, I've seen the claim that Jack's attitude is a defense mechanism. That may be so, but it's not at all obvious. Of course someone who likes Jack from the start is more likely to see it that way instead of saying that she just likes killing people. I have as much evidence for my interpretation of Miranda as you have for your interpretation of Jack.
As for maturity, it's all too easy accusing fanbases of other characters of being immature. I've done that with Tali on occasion. But I know from experience it's quite possible to immediately like Miranda when first encountering her, and continue to like her throughout the game, without being a hormone-drenched 16-year-old (I'm about three times that, FYI). I won't get into more detail because I don't want to get any more OT, just look at the wishlist on our OP.
In the end, it comes down to a preference: I like the subtle and sophisticated, and Jack's not that. I have a strong distrust of the impulsive, and Jack's very much that. I know, or at least suspect, why I have those preferences - it has nothing to do with social strata or age/maturity - but regardless of the reasons, I have them. You've said you like Jack because she's more real, but that tells me more about you than about Jack.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 27 octobre 2010 - 02:16 .

[Jebel Krong]

Mondo - thought your post in the mirandas thread was very good, not seen any of your posts before (well haven't visited the jack thread before either), thanks for your thoughts anyway.

EDIT: btw jack's tatoos are the best thing about her for me - especially the ones that tell some of her story (as many people's do in real-life, or at least say something about them), some of hers are awesome.

Modifié par Jebel Krong, 27 octobre 2010 - 02:23 .

[Mondo47]

Ieldra2 wrote...

@Mondo47:
Were you flamebombed? I'm sorry for that.

It was a long-ass time ago - back when the Miranda thread was in its first itteration. Long story short I said Miranda was a bit of a cold-hearted cow based on my very first playthrough (which was with a Femme-Shep, so there was no romantic angle either) and I thought her treatment of Jack was a little on the harsh side. I might have used the bovine-word, sure, but the response I got from pretty much the entire thread was... well...



This was back in a period where Jack was getting universally tarred with the "psychotic b*tch" tag - which we never really appreciated that much - so maybe it came off as more confrontational than I intended, but either way, it's water under the bridge

Seriously though, it's nice to debate the characters against one another (considering their similarites) in a civil fashion. It never really seemed possible before without either side getting overly-defensive and starting tossing molotovs. Sure, there are some of us here that see more negative aspects of Miranda - much as some of you are more inclined to see the negative in Jack - but the chance to debate it with civility is more than welcome.

[Epantiras]

I see you guys are busy with the old "Jack VS Miranda" debate...

I'll bring some humor to cheer you up (click on the thumbnail)