20813 réponses à ce sujet

[Mondo47]

Epantiras wrote...

I see you guys are busy with the old "Jack VS Miranda" debate...
I'll bring some humor to cheer you up (click on the thumbnail)

ROFL! Perfect! Someone's thinking "Is that a hand on my ass?"

Actually Epants it's an all-new Jack & Miranda debate... there's not a chainsaw in sight for starters

[Jebel Krong]

 

i don't think any 'lubricating effect' would help much... 

Modifié par Jebel Krong, 27 octobre 2010 - 02:39 .

[axl99]

Mondo47 wrote...
Actually Epants it's an all-new Jack & Miranda debate... there's not a chainsaw in sight for starters

Right up until someone called this thread a pool of sharks. That wasn't nice at all. But in any case I'm done with that thread before it starts getting ugly.

Seeing Ep's new pirate piccy, made me think what kinda decals would look great on the Normandy if Jack were to make them? If Jack had her own flag, what it'd look like?

Modifié par axl99, 27 octobre 2010 - 03:19 .

[adriano_c]

A skull and omega sign would need to be included, for sure.

[Mondo47]

axl99 wrote...

Right up until someone called this thread a pool of sharks. That wasn't nice at all. But in any case I'm done with that thread before it starts getting ugly.

Seeing Ep's new pirate piccy, made me think what kinda decals would look great on the Normandy if Jack were to make them? If Jack had her own flag, what it'd look like?

Why do you think I mocked it for being such a silly statement - I mean, we don't have sharp teeth in here. Unless there's blood in the water... heh heh heh

I just sauntered back from the chemists, and this really odd thought ended up in my brain: Jack dressed as Oddball from Kelly's Heroes - flying helmet, scarf, crazy grin, sitting on a tank turret with a bottle in her hand, and Grunt sat below her with a cigar, goggles and a grumpy frown as Moriarty... making with the negative waves

Just thought I'd share that because I'm still grinning about it...

[Dominus5412]

Jack needs to knock it off and dig how beautiful it is in space.

[SpiderFan1217]

Epantiras wrote...

I see you guys are busy with the old "Jack VS Miranda" debate...
I'll bring some humor to cheer you up (click on the thumbnail)

  ARRRPG!! 

[Barrendall]

Dominus5412 wrote...

Jack needs to knock it off and dig how beautiful it is in space.

Wow, that was...insightful?  I don't know if you would care to elaborate a little here.  Knock what off?  A cold one?
If that's the case, I'm sure Jack has been known to sip a brew now and again.  

[Dominus5412]

I'm just saying she needs to be righteous and hopeful for a change.

[Barrendall]

JakeMacDon wrote...





Ick.

Jack, on the other hand, is well, real.  As real as a character gets in the game, anyway.  Probably why people don't like her. 

This "you can't trust Jack because she's a loose cannon' jazz is also nonsense.  Jack is what she appears to be, and you can actually trust that.  What Jack is stands right there, tattooed glory and all.  Personally, I trust that.  That takes guts.

There's no pretense in Jack.  She doesn't have it, never learned, never got the chance  (A minor point:  Jack says warm feelings from a fight - not killing - a small distinction, but a telling one, IMO).  Miranda probably has more blood on her hands than Jack's ever dreamed of - things she won't share because it would show her as the ruthless ice queen she fancies herself.

Jack's biggest secrets probably involve a love of Impressionists and tuba solos.  What is there to hide when you can proudly proclaim to any and all that not only can you fvck their sh!t up, your CV is loaded with sh!t fvcked so thoroughly that cryo-solitary is the best choice for your in-prison comfort? 

Jack hides only the one thing she's managed to hold on - that bit that - even after all the rape and torture and hell - still hopes there is something better.  She couldn't fall for Shepard if she didn't have it.  It's not something he can give her or 'fix'.  She has to have it to begin with, or nothing would happen. 

That's real strength.

Sorry about the ramble.  Just to touch on what Mondo said, I think it's more a matter of age/maturity, than social strata that determines which of the LI people are going to gravitate.  It may take a broader perspective to see past Jack's superficialities, and lack of basic immediate sex appeal (entirely subjective anyway).  She's not common at all, and that's probably where the trouble come in.

I would like to quote JakeMacDon in response to your statement Dominus because I don't think I could say it anymore eloquently.

[Barrendall]

axl99 wrote...


Right up until someone called this thread a pool of sharks. That wasn't nice at all. But in any case I'm done with that thread before it starts getting ugly.

 

I kind of saw that comment as a compliment actually.  I mean sort of...  "shrug" I took the liberty of incorporating it into my signature anyway because it amused me.

[Mondo47]

Could be read either way I guess... I took it as a little dig about potential hostility, but hey, either way, no harm done. We're soaking up the rays, taking in a little wine and cheese and avoidin' those negative waves!

[adriano_c]

Jack as a 'puddle' isn't too complimentary!

[Dominus5412]

What if it's one of those puddles with oil in it, and you get that pretty rainbow effect?

[Barrendall]

adriano_c wrote...

Jack as a 'puddle' isn't too complimentary!

but puddle as a deep and vast...not shallow or muddy....Doh!  I see what you mean...umm I'll go back to the old sig. 

[Mondo47]

Another way to take it would be a puddle has no room to swim for cover in it - especially with this many animals with sharp teeth in it... like a bathtub full of box jellyfish.

[Errationatus]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Let's just say we do not see it that way.

Of course you don't, nor would Mirians be expected to, just the way it is.  It changes nothing about Miranda's character though. 

I could as easily claim every "deep" thing you say about Jack is invention by her fans, and I'd be equally wrong because I haven't spent alot of time thinking about her. None of us can see into the heads of fictional characters, so we all try to make plausible interpretations.

Sure.  The difference with Jack is that she's pretty much right there the minute she walks onto the screen.  She's not hiding a whole helluva lot when you actually think about it. 

For instance, if anyone's redeemed by Shep's mojo, it's Miri, not Jack.  From hardcore Cerberus operative that wanted to control chip the Galaxy's Hero to steadfast ally and betrayer of TIM?  That's quite the leap.  All that happened to Jack was that someone showed her that peoplecould really actually give a damn.  That's not an interpretation, that's just from the game.

For instance, I've seen the claim that Jack's attitude is a defense mechanism. That may be so, but  it's not at all obvious. Of course someone who likes Jack from the start is more likely to see it that way instead of saying that she just likes killing people.

I've seen the claim for Jack as well. After the fact. I didn't like Jack from the start.  I thought she was just another
cliche - and in a way she is, they all are, but she's a well-rendered (in all senses of the word) cliche.

I have as much evidence for my interpretation of Miranda as you have for your interpretation of Jack.

I'm not interpreting anything.  I don't have to hunt, I don't have to extrapolate - and I'm fairly certain I never have with Jack.  Not necessary.  I don't have to justify Jack, that's the nice thing about her.   

Whether Mirians like it or not, your favourite is a Hollywood sci-fi convention that has long since worn out it's welcome - the sexbomb who works for the bad guy and in the end switches sides because she was swept away from one quik-diking by the hero.  I look at Miranda and I see every Bond girl ever. 

She expresses no remorse, she gives excuses.  When confronted with a  product of Cerberus' genius, she pretty much blames the victim and her stance never changes.  There is very little likable about her.  Jack is a foul-mouthed criminal with a lot of problems.  That's a fact.  No, it doesn't automatically give one great depth, either.  That's Jack's baggage, not depth.

But Jack  isn't meant to be deep.  She's not.  In many ways, she's as cliched as Miri.   You can't redeem Jack.  She is what she is, and there's really no way she can actually pay.  Kill her?  She doesn't care.  Jack doesn't even really develop until you start falling for her, because you're forcing her to play against her type.  That's not an interpretation, simply an assessment of how the relationship develops.  Miranda isn't deep and never gets there.  She doesn't have to - that's not why she's in the story.

As for maturity, it's all too easy accusing fanbases of other characters of being immature.

Well, for one thing, I didn't do that.  What I said was that I think it's a matter of age/maturity. The 35 year old tends - I would hope so anyway - to regard relationships a tad more deeply than a 16 year old might.  Hopefully
they can see shadings and innuendos and subtleties better than a child as well.  That's not a slam, it's simple observation.  If you read slightly more carefully, I also said that it was Miri's fans who made her even remotely tolerable.  How is that doing anything other than praising them?

I've done that with Tali on occasion. But I know from experience it's quite possible to immediately like Miranda when first encountering her, and continue to like her throughout the game, without being a hormone-drenched 16-year-old (I'm about three times that, FYI).

Well,I'm a bit past 16 myself, and I see little about Miranda to like.  Anyone whose first impulse is to implant a control chip in me can p!ss off and not come back.

I won't get into more detail because I don't want to get any more OT, just look at the wishlist on our OP.
In the end, it comes down to a preference: I like the subtle and sophisticated, and Jack's not that.

Nope.  And neither is Miranda.  None of the characters are, when you get right down to it.  Of course, I've never said Jack was the deepest either.  Complicated after a fashion, yes.  Deep?  Naw.

I have a strong distrust of the impulsive, and Jack's very much that. Iknow, or at least suspect, why I have those preferences - it has nothing to do with social strata or age/maturity

Well, that's your hangup.  Mine is I don't like controlling, manipulative b!tches with massive egos.  But that's just me.

but regardless of the reasons, I have them.

Quite so.

You've said you like Jack because she's more real, but that tells me more about you than about Jack.

No, I said that because of all the rather shallow characters in ME2, she's got more "real-person motivation" than genetic babe-mutts or dextro-based cutsey aliens.  She's a smidge more grounded - as far as that goes.

Modifié par JakeMacDon, 27 octobre 2010 - 06:41 .

[Loki330]

Mondo47 wrote...

Why do you think I mocked it for being such a silly statement - I mean, we don't have sharp teeth in here. Unless there's blood in the water... heh heh heh

I just sauntered back from the chemists, and this really odd thought ended up in my brain: Jack dressed as Oddball from Kelly's Heroes - flying helmet, scarf, crazy grin, sitting on a tank turret with a bottle in her hand, and Grunt sat below her with a cigar, goggles and a grumpy frown as Moriarty... making with the negative waves

Just thought I'd share that because I'm still grinning about it...

Nah, make Mordin Moriarty, that way you can rip off Doctor Who:

Mordin: "I can't repair it! It's impossible!"

Jack: "How impossible?"

Mordin: "...five minutes?"

[AntiChri5]

One thing that I still am a little wondering about is this one line Jack has.



I distinctly remember the first time around when I asked Jack about our mission she said "I owe you Shepard" in response. Eventually that changed to "I know when someone has got murder on their minds..."



I figured it had something to do with whether or not her romance was active but when I played again with my Shepard who did go all the way through the romance with her, I didn't hear that at all.



Did anyone else hear that line or did I somehow imagine the whole thing? Was I supposed to hear her say that to me at some point?

It changes to "murder on their mind" after Horizon, then changes again after her Loyalty Mission.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Weird. For some reason on my most recently play-through it never changed from that even though I kept expecting it to. And in my first one, since it changed the other way, maybe it had some sort of glitch or two.

[Mondo47]

And countered