20813 réponses à ce sujet

[Skyline_Stanza]

yorkj86 wrote...

We know by now that Jack appeals to a small minority of people.  If she was designed that way, to be at-odds with most people, does that make her character a success, that, in practice, she is disliked by most people? 

My brain. It exploded.

You pose quite the question there, York. I'm...not quite sure how to answer. Other Jack fans, what do you guys think?

[Pacifien]

yorkj86 wrote...
We know by now that Jack appeals to a small minority of people.  If she was designed that way, to be at-odds with most people, does that make her character a success, that, in practice, she is disliked by most people? 

Well... they like her boots.

I judge it a success if you write twelve different squadmates and people actually have very different impressions of each one. In real life, people really would have a hard time loving such a varied group of people equally. Work with them, maybe, but not go out with just anyone for a beer at the end of the day.

[axl99]

Yes, and no? Casey Hudson said so himself that Jack was meant to polarize and provoke responses out of people. There are days I like to think that Jack was meant to rebuke the way some people like to roleplay their Shepards.

[Pacifien]

yorkj86 wrote...
If she's disliked by so many people, though, it might seem to those people that Bioware is trying to force her down their throats.  If she was designed to be unlikable, and many people dislike her, she might be a success from a writing standpoint, but would she be worth the investment to bring her back for the next game?

That is a legitimate concern because there have been plenty of unpopular characters in other movies/television/game series that found their roles greatly reduced or replaced altogether in response to fans. Even characters that the creators actually quite like, they feel pressured to reduce the role simply because they don't want to force something unpopular onto the audience.

I have a hard time judging exactly how disliked Jack is, though. There's plenty of dislike for Jack simply because people felt they had to romance her in order to get anything worthwhile out of the character. That could be solved with better writing, but there's plenty of evidence of BioWare responding to criticism by outright removal of the criticized element.

I'm not all that worried that Jack's role would be reduced simply because she doesn't have an easily discernable role as a big player. She's still the most powerful human biotic, and the Reapers seem to have a thing about human biotics if Retribution is anything to go by. She's a veteran of a Shepard campaign against the Collectors. She could have connections across the Terminus Systems that were never presented in the second game. There's so little known about the history of most of the characters (it really is just broad overviews), it leaves quite a bit of leeway for BioWare to get creative.

[Skyline_Stanza]

yorkj86 wrote...
.  If she was designed to be unlikable, and many people dislike her, she might be a success from a writing standpoint, but would she be worth the investment to bring her back for the next game?

I know that Jack's possible role in ME3 is discussed a lot, but if the final game is about destroying the Reapers, what exactly does Jack bring to the table? 

That's a very valid point, however, there's the argument (and I'm sure you've heard it once or twice before) of 'why would they develop these characters so well and invest so much in them, if not to have them return?' I'm not say Jack's going to return defintley, but, as I am a fan of all the squadmates, I do hope they all make some appearance within you squad. (at least temporarly)  

 But what do the newer squadmates, like Jack, bring to ME3 to help aid in destroying the Reapers? I personally can't say, as I'm not very good at giving these kinds of far-away estimates.  

[Barrendall]

yorkj86 wrote...

If she's disliked by so many people, though, it might seem to those people that Bioware is trying to force her down their throats.  If she was designed to be unlikable, and many people dislike her, she might be a success from a writing standpoint, but would she be worth the investment to bring her back for the next game?

I know that Jack's possible role in ME3 is discussed a lot, but if the final game is about destroying the Reapers, what exactly does Jack bring to the table?  I don't know why the criminal element would give a hoot anyway, as they'd likely just go and loot and smash while the Reapers do their thing, but Aria would have far more influence with pirates and the like than Jack.

Anyway, it's late, and I'm tired, and rambling.

Well she did blow up a spacestation and that's gotta take more than just the street smarts of your average criminal.  I'm thinking she probably knows where a sensitive spot is to plant explosives and whatnot.  Of course I'm assuming she's the one who planted the explosives...I could be wrong here.

[Weiser_Cain]

I put forth the idea somewhere else that it'd be nice to command a fleet. While Jack's no good for that, with the crew thinned out by the ones that would make good leaders getting their own ships you'd need somebody to watch your back, Jack would be good at that... well if you didn't dump her for Tali like I did, I'm likely to get a knife in the back after we beat the Reapers and Jack will run off with the Normandy 3,

[Collider]

I believe Bioware said that they didn't mean for the everyone in ME2's team to be liked by all players. So far as that goes - mission accomplished.



Jack is a wrecking ball. That's what she brings to the table, imo. I mean Shepard has always had those straight-up warriors on his/her team. Sometimes you just need some muscle.



Jack doesn't have as much story relevance or importance as most of the other characters, but I'll expect her to return if only for the fact that she's a love interest.

[GuardianAngel470]

yorkj86 wrote...

If she's disliked by so many people, though, it might seem to those people that Bioware is trying to force her down their throats.  If she was designed to be unlikable, and many people dislike her, she might be a success from a writing standpoint, but would she be worth the investment to bring her back for the next game?

I know that Jack's possible role in ME3 is discussed a lot, but if the final game is about destroying the Reapers, what exactly does Jack bring to the table?  I don't know why the criminal element would give a hoot anyway, as they'd likely just go and loot and smash while the Reapers do their thing, but Aria would have far more influence with pirates and the like than Jack.

Anyway, it's late, and I'm tired, and rambling.

At the end of the day, she's disliked because people don't pay enough attention to her in my opinion. I was that way my first playthrough, but as I listened to her dialog, especially the part about the space station, I realized she had a lot in common with Garrus and Samara. She's simply on the other side of the fence, but she hates injustice just as much as those two.

EDIT: I guess if we use a Batman analogy, she would be scarface.

Modifié par GuardianAngel470, 03 novembre 2010 - 07:28 .

[JohnnyBeGood2]

I liked Jacks characterisation from the outset very much... if people dont like her and Bioware regard her presence as a jeopardy to the game in gerenal then ok.. personally, I also cant guage how much that dislike is prevalent. I think people polarise a bit over her - either like or hate.



I support her definitely and find the negative sentiment to be based on a lack of understanding of the way the human psyche works... and I dont mean in a touchy / feely way... I mean people who dont get her, just dont get human psychology.

[JohnnyBeGood2]

Collider wrote...

If I was a writer for a game like Mass Effect, and people argued about my character, I'd be very proud.

yeah

[Skyline_Stanza]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

yorkj86 wrote...

If she's disliked by so many people, though, it might seem to those people that Bioware is trying to force her down their throats.  If she was designed to be unlikable, and many people dislike her, she might be a success from a writing standpoint, but would she be worth the investment to bring her back for the next game?

I know that Jack's possible role in ME3 is discussed a lot, but if the final game is about destroying the Reapers, what exactly does Jack bring to the table?  I don't know why the criminal element would give a hoot anyway, as they'd likely just go and loot and smash while the Reapers do their thing, but Aria would have far more influence with pirates and the like than Jack.

Anyway, it's late, and I'm tired, and rambling.

At the end of the day, she's disliked because people don't pay enough attention to her in my opinion. I was that way my first playthrough, but as I listened to her dialog, especially the part about the space station, I realized she had a lot in common with Garrus and Samara. She's simply on the other side of the fence, but she hates injustice just as much as those two.

EDIT: I guess if we use a Batman analogy, she would be scarface.

I like this, but I struggle to see the connection between the three. How do you think Jack's like Garrus and Samara, now?

[Iwakura-Lain]

At the end of the day she's simply disliked because she's different. She's, quite literally, the opposite of the 'cheerleader' type (her nemesis Miranda). She's not a non-threatening, easy-going blonde with cheap 'assets,' like Miranda. Instead she's flat-chested, bald, covered in tattoes, and volatile; she comes with 'special needs,' plays rough, and requires a manual to handle.

Yes, I know, Garrus is different too, and Tali, and Wrex; and people readily accept them. But Jack is different as a human, and that just turns a lot of folks off.

[Collider]

And may we enjoy the character in their stead.

[Mondo47]

This debate on "who brings what to the table in ME3" always makes me perk an eyebrow.

I mean, the logical expectation is that the game will climax with some kind of fleet combat; a squad logically bears no threat to a massive fleet of two-kilometer-long mecha-bug/squid/whatevers. So, if that is indeed logical, who brings anything to the table?

Well, Legion could conceivably call in the geth en-mass, and Tali could haul in the flotilla at a push (though if she does become an admiral, that becomes much more plausible). Shep probably has some clout with the Alliance, but the Council is probably much harder to swing. Seriously, though - who else has any pulling power?

Miranda and Jacob might be able to drag in a few vessels from Cerberus-based concerns, and based on the connections between some parts of the Alliance, Cerberus might be able to pull strings to get the Alliance fleet involved. Grunt can't seriously be thought to carry any clout with the krogan, and they don't have a fleet anyway even if Shep could twist Wrex's arm. Kasumi, Thane, Samara and Garrus don't have any real status beyond small circles. Mordin may be respected back home, but his political power is probably zero. Zaeed might have a lot of mercenary contacts, but I doubt he could rustle up much in terms of fleet strength, and you might argue the same with Jack in regards to pirates. Seriously - aside from three characters, who can pull much more than a handful of ships?

After seeing what one Reaper could do, there really is no conceivable way for anyone to really muster a worthwhile challenge to the Reapers en-mass. There really has to be another way, unless BioWare ditch the mechanics of the game entirely for the endgame... a strategy that requires Shep and his ragtag band of merry men and women to stick it to the mecha-calamari. And if that is the case, then Jack, and everyone else, has as much to bring to the table as anyone else.

This is the only way I can think about the endgame playing out thus far. Until BioWare tips us a wink as to the big finish playing out a particular way, I think it's safest to say that all bets are off.

[Iwakura-Lain]

Collider wrote...

And may we enjoy the character in their stead.

Well, I know *I* do. I love Jack. I don't consider her 'butch' at all (she's quite femine to me). Nor do I dislike her rough side. She can be a handful, that's true; but she's honest (I like having WYSIWYG types for squad mates, like Ashley), and just as much in need of love as any other human.

[Collider]

Does anyone know who Jack's writer is?

[Skyline_Stanza]

Mondo47 wrote...

This debate on "who brings what to the table in ME3" always makes me perk an eyebrow.

I mean, the logical expectation is that the game will climax with some kind of fleet combat; a squad logically bears no threat to a massive fleet of two-kilometer-long mecha-bug/squid/whatevers. So, if that is indeed logical, who brings anything to the table?

Well, Legion could conceivably call in the geth en-mass, and Tali could haul in the flotilla at a push (though if she does become an admiral, that becomes much more plausible). Shep probably has some clout with the Alliance, but the Council is probably much harder to swing. Seriously, though - who else has any pulling power?

Miranda and Jacob might be able to drag in a few vessels from Cerberus-based concerns, and based on the connections between some parts of the Alliance, Cerberus might be able to pull strings to get the Alliance fleet involved. Grunt can't seriously be thought to carry any clout with the krogan, and they don't have a fleet anyway even if Shep could twist Wrex's arm. Kasumi, Thane, Samara and Garrus don't have any real status beyond small circles. Mordin may be respected back home, but his political power is probably zero. Zaeed might have a lot of mercenary contacts, but I doubt he could rustle up much in terms of fleet strength, and you might argue the same with Jack in regards to pirates. Seriously - aside from three characters, who can pull much more than a handful of ships?

After seeing what one Reaper could do, there really is no conceivable way for anyone to really muster a worthwhile challenge to the Reapers en-mass. There really has to be another way, unless BioWare ditch the mechanics of the game entirely for the endgame... a strategy that requires Shep and his ragtag band of merry men and women to stick it to the mecha-calamari. And if that is the case, then Jack, and everyone else, has as much to bring to the table as anyone else.

This is the only way I can think about the endgame playing out thus far. Until BioWare tips us a wink as to the big finish playing out a particular way, I think it's safest to say that all bets are off.

Ah, Mondo. What would we do without your input?  

That's a very logical way of looking at it, and now that I think about it, you're correct. However, if the Bioware team doesn't decide to focus on fleet combat with the Reapers en-masse, then I would probably assume that we're going to be looking for a way to stop the Reapers from arriving instead of butting heads with them.

[Iwakura-Lain]

Mondo47 wrote...

This debate on "who brings what to the table in ME3" always makes me perk an eyebrow.

I mean, the logical expectation is that the game will climax with some kind of fleet combat; a squad logically bears no threat to a massive fleet of two-kilometer-long mecha-bug/squid/whatevers. So, if that is indeed logical, who brings anything to the table?

Well, Legion could conceivably call in the geth en-mass, and Tali could haul in the flotilla at a push (though if she does become an admiral, that becomes much more plausible). Shep probably has some clout with the Alliance, but the Council is probably much harder to swing. Seriously, though - who else has any pulling power?

Miranda and Jacob might be able to drag in a few vessels from Cerberus-based concerns, and based on the connections between some parts of the Alliance, Cerberus might be able to pull strings to get the Alliance fleet involved. Grunt can't seriously be thought to carry any clout with the krogan, and they don't have a fleet anyway even if Shep could twist Wrex's arm. Kasumi, Thane, Samara and Garrus don't have any real status beyond small circles. Mordin may be respected back home, but his political power is probably zero. Zaeed might have a lot of mercenary contacts, but I doubt he could rustle up much in terms of fleet strength, and you might argue the same with Jack in regards to pirates. Seriously - aside from three characters, who can pull much more than a handful of ships?

After seeing what one Reaper could do, there really is no conceivable way for anyone to really muster a worthwhile challenge to the Reapers en-mass. There really has to be another way, unless BioWare ditch the mechanics of the game entirely for the endgame... a strategy that requires Shep and his ragtag band of merry men and women to stick it to the mecha-calamari. And if that is the case, then Jack, and everyone else, has as much to bring to the table as anyone else.

This is the only way I can think about the endgame playing out thus far. Until BioWare tips us a wink as to the big finish playing out a particular way, I think it's safest to say that all bets are off.

Good post. It's still predicated on the premisse that there actually will be a giant showdown, though. And I'm not so sure what will happen. For one, as you pointed out so astutely, should the Reapers evers choose to come en masse, everyone's f*cked: there's just no realistic way of stopping them. Even the Normandy taking out their huge 'old friend' collector vessel was bordering on the plausible -- no matter how much calibrations Garrus did to the new gun.

If Legion's words are any indication, it looks like the geth vs. Quarian conflict will sissle out peacefully. And it may just possibly be that the confrontation with the Reapers doesn't end in al all-out 'us-or-them' battle, either. Could just be there will be some sort of war, or upmake to it, but that, in the final hour, the Reapers, say, decide to leave our races be, finding we have sufficiently grown on our own; that they'll stop meddling and move beyond the rim (Babylon V). Or some other unforeseen twist.

At any rate, a plot in which Shepard will defeat the Reapers, I dunno, I just don't see it happen.

Modifié par Iwakura-Lain, 03 novembre 2010 - 01:30 .

[adriano_c]

There better not be any sort of Landsmeet scenario in the next game. Or some miraculous discovery of "anti-Reaper cyberwarfare algorithms", blah blah.

[Mondo47]

Yeah... there has to be some way of either rendering their numbers and firepower meaningless or some method to bypass their arrival completely. The only problem there is that if you take the "Closing the Magic Door" path, the ending is no more dramatic than, well, slamming a door - go back to where you came from, Lucifer... I mean Harbinger! And Harbie and his buddies going "Awwwwww!" and slouching off like scolded ten year old lads. If you go the "All Out Galactic Warfare" route, you're delivering the expected rip-roaring space opera ending. There has to be some kind of big finish or the audience will start tearing out the seats and string up the usherettes by their ice-cream trays

What my gut is telling me is that there will be some kind of Return of the Jedi gambit; where Shep and the gang will be on a planet, inside a Reaper, whatever, doing something to turn off all the bad guys force fields, while a massive fleet of everyone Shep has talked into joining the fray has an Empire vs. Rebels style pitched space battle nearby. Cue massive casualties, someone shouting something that becomes a meme, and if you were a good little girl or boy the rachni and the geth swoop in to add to the carnage. Shep and co. will do their thing, shout tag - you're it at Harbie, and the fleet will open up with a gazillion thanix cannons and the Reapers will get shot to sh*t. The Normandy will sweep in, deliver the final killer blow to Harbie, and a lot of sh*t will blow up. Cue epilogue scene that ties up any remaining loose ends (and if it's a funeral, BioWare, I swear to you... a sound fonging will be coming your way - you can only pull that crap with me once) and roll credits.

What strikes me constantly about the series is that it's pure space opera, and those things generally never finish in a quiet or thoughtful way - not unless there's another part to come at least...

Modifié par Mondo47, 03 novembre 2010 - 02:09 .

[Pacifien]

Collider wrote...
Does anyone know who Jack's writer is?

Brian Kindregan. He also wrote Samara and did the initial layout for Grunt.

He doesn't work at BioWare anymore.

ETA: Also, I maintain the Reaper threat will be dealth with when Conrad Vernor finds the OFF button on the Citadel.

Modifié par Pacifien, 03 novembre 2010 - 02:14 .

[Skyline_Stanza]

Mondo47 wrote...

Yeah... there has to be some way of either rendering their numbers and firepower meaningless or some method to bypass their arrival completely. The only problem there is that if you take the "Closing the Magic Door" path, the ending is no more dramatic than, well, slamming a door - go back to where you came from, Lucifer... I mean Harbinger! And Harbie and his buddies going "Awwwwww!" and slouching off like scolded ten year old lads. If you go the "All Out Galactic Warfare" route, you're delivering the expected rip-roaring space opera ending. There has to be some kind of big finish or the audience will start tearing out the seats and string up the usherettes by their ice-cream trays

What my gut is telling me is that there will be some kind of Return of the Jedi gambit; where Shep and the gang will be on a planet, inside a Reaper, whatever, doing something to turn off all the bad guys force fields, while a massive fleet of everyone Shep has talked into joining the fray has an Empire vs. Rebels style pitched space battle nearby. Cue massive casualties, someone shouting something that becomes a meme, and if you were a good little girl or boy the rachni and the geth swoop in to add to the carnage. Shep and co. will do their thing, shout tag - you're it at Harbie, and the fleet will open up with a gazillion thanix cannons and the Reapers will get shot to sh*t. The Normandy will sweep in, deliver the final killer blow to Harbie, and a lot of sh*t will blow up. Cue epilogue scene that ties up any remaining loose ends (and if it's a funeral, BioWare, I swear to you... a sound fonging will be coming your way - you can only pull that crap with me once) and roll credits.

What strikes me constantly about the series is that it's pure space opera, and those things generally never finish in a quiet or thoughtful way - not unless there's another part to come at least...

I agree most heartily with the above. What I'm curious about is HOW such a scenario will come to fruition. I realise the plot of ME3 is going to be "Get our sh!t together because the Reapers are coming!' I'm wondering if it's going to be a Dragon Age scenario, gathering forces and making/repairing alliances and all that. 

(And I had to lol at the meme shouting, because I'm pretty sure that's really all it takes to start a meme these days.)  

Now, back to Jack anyone? Hmmmmmm.....what's something Jack related we can talk about...For those of you that romanced her, what do you see thier Jack/Shep 'ending' to be? Like dissapearing on ship, doing whatever the hell Shep and Jack want? Jack going off on her own, doing whatever she want? Would she stay with Shep, even if they loved one another? Or would Jack get restless?