20813 réponses à ce sujet

[Mondo47]

Just to go off on a tangent for a second, biotics has at its basis the manipulation of mass effect fields; making things denser than they are, or lighter, or using gravity fields to alter the environment around the biotic-user themselves - be that as rapid bursts, localised fields or flung bolts and singularities. The slightest miscalculation in the manipulation of a field could obliterate the object held within the field - not so bad if you want to pulp a Blue Suns merc, but if you want to move an egg (or a person you don't want reduced to raspberry jelly) it's pretty useless. It really makes me wonder how the hell do you train a mind to think in a way to be able to instinctively understand a "magical" force that can manipulate objects without any sensory feedback? Is the the interaction with constructed implants that allow power levels to be safely limited, or is it possible to judge something so intangible "by eye" as it were? How long would it even take to train to do this (and does this perhaps explain why such long-lived races as asari or krogan are able to develop such advanced levels of control)?

Now, apply this to Jack. Sure, there was some kind of training at Teltin, though how deep it could have been is questionable. Now think about how much control Jack is able to display. Bearing in mind that Jack can essentially use her biotics as a toy (as in using biotics as a sex aid... yeah, just remember what happened to all those bulkheads on Purgatory), we're only really left with three conclusions - either Jack is a complete biotic savant and/or polymath genius and has learned everything herself (and just hids it well with that pottymouth of hers), Jack has managed to lean in snatches from others over the years (which has not been long considering Jack's age - once again, it means she's scarily good) or she has had at least one mentor at some point. Because Jack's personal history has so many gaps (at least as it's presented to us) it's not impossible Jack had some serious tuition in biotics at some point. It really does make me wonder, with Jack's issues about trust and expected-abuse, whether Jack (to use a Dragon Age analogy) has a Marjolaine in her past?

As for Jack and dance, I can see her being a simply a fluid mover; water can lap gently, swirl, crest and pound flat. I don't think you could really apply any kind of style to her in general, maybe bits and pieces of all kinds of forms... like some encyclopedic contemporary dance instructor that just surges through different moves from different schools and styles. Complete fusion.

[Skyline_Stanza]

Mondo, don't ever worry about going on a tangent when it comes to Jack. I love the depth that you, and all of the Jack fans, give her. I just want to get her biotic style down juuusst right.

I like the little ideas that you formulate just based on Jack's biotic performaces. Perhaps how she learned control is a small combinaton of all your theories, Mondo?
 
I agree that she'd have bits and pieces of different forms mixed together, because that's what she picked up or was taught and encorperated it into her own fighting style, sort of as a survival technique. It fits her. (I just realized how big of a run on that was. Ugh. I'm not a morning person.)

Modifié par Skyline_Stanza, 06 novembre 2010 - 01:38 .

[Pacifien]

I think any biotic who is capable of using their abilities in combat must have considerable skill, talent, and control. Just using Kaidan's descriptions of BAaT training, he mentions how you could get a simple nosebleed for trying to pull a glass of water. I suppose as the technology improves, one can learn how to use their biotics at a faster rate as the implants and amps are better catered to human physiology.

Based on the Lair of the Shadow Broker dossier, Jack was chosen for Teltin because she showed great promise even before she was trained in use of her biotics. Did she have a considerably larger amount of eezo nodules than other biotics? Did she show an aptitude to learning how to use her biotics? Or both? She was special in some way.

Anyway, my painter/dancer analogy, I was actually thinking about how Jack and Samara are different in their use of biotics during battle. I used to think of Jack as brute force versus Samara's grace, but after seeing the videos in the LotSB DLC, I changed my mind. Outside of combat, I think Jack's movements are a bit on the brutish side: she stomps when she walks, she slouches, she's twitchy. Samara is different, she's quite graceful in the way she walks, she stands with great stature. But how they use their biotics shows an entirely different side.

When Jack is using her biotics, the graceful dancer appears. She flows, she's constantly moving, she's dramatic in her display. She could simply toss aside an opponent, but she'll jump high into the air while sending them crashing down at the same time. She is most alive during combat, and probably takes great pride in how she can truly use her biotics during that time. Her whole life she's been treated as if she was nothing but a biotic weapon. Whatever other skills she may have gathered throughout her life, it will always come back to her biotics as if that is all she will ever be to others. She can either try to escape it, like Kaidan did, or embrace it. I think she embraces it.

When Samara uses her biotics, she is quite precise, like a painter who tries to create a perfect painting. The right colors, the right brush strokes, the right composition. She is deliberate in her use of her biotics, they do what she needs them to do and nothing more. While Jack might take a biotic punch and use it to toss the merc across the room at the same time, Samara simply uses the punch for the killing blow. Her biotics are simply a tool that she uses, not a definition of who she is.

Anyway, for heavy warp versus unstable warp, in spite of the name, I don't think unstable warp is really all that unstable. One does more damage while the other increases the blast radius on a warp explosion. Heavy warp is for the biotic looking to do maximum damage to a single target. Unstable warp looks to damage a group, but it can only be done as a biotic combo, which means the person is looking for backup from a fellow biotic to make the most out of ability. Jack is someone who I think would rather tune her biotics for her own use rather than depend on another, so she's a Heavy Warp kind of gal.

[Skyline_Stanza]

Pacifien wrote...

I think any biotic who is capable of using their abilities in combat must have considerable skill, talent, and control. Just using Kaidan's descriptions of BAaT training, he mentions how you could get a simple nosebleed for trying to pull a glass of water. I suppose as the technology improves, one can learn how to use their biotics at a faster rate as the implants and amps are better catered to human physiology.

Based on the Lair of the Shadow Broker dossier, Jack was chosen for Teltin because she showed great promise even before she was trained in use of her biotics. Did she have a considerably larger amount of eezo nodules than other biotics? Did she show an aptitude to learning how to use her biotics? Or both? She was special in some way.

Anyway, my painter/dancer analogy, I was actually thinking about how Jack and Samara are different in their use of biotics during battle. I used to think of Jack as brute force versus Samara's grace, but after seeing the videos in the LotSB DLC, I changed my mind. Outside of combat, I think Jack's movements are a bit on the brutish side: she stomps when she walks, she slouches, she's twitchy. Samara is different, she's quite graceful in the way she walks, she stands with great stature. But how they use their biotics shows an entirely different side.

When Jack is using her biotics, the graceful dancer appears. She flows, she's constantly moving, she's dramatic in her display. She could simply toss aside an opponent, but she'll jump high into the air while sending them crashing down at the same time. She is most alive during combat, and probably takes great pride in how she can truly use her biotics during that time. Her whole life she's been treated as if she was nothing but a biotic weapon. Whatever other skills she may have gathered throughout her life, it will always come back to her biotics as if that is all she will ever be to others. She can either try to escape it, like Kaidan did, or embrace it. I think she embraces it.

When Samara uses her biotics, she is quite precise, like a painter who tries to create a perfect painting. The right colors, the right brush strokes, the right composition. She is deliberate in her use of her biotics, they do what she needs them to do and nothing more. While Jack might take a biotic punch and use it to toss the merc across the room at the same time, Samara simply uses the punch for the killing blow. Her biotics are simply a tool that she uses, not a definition of who she is.

Anyway, for heavy warp versus unstable warp, in spite of the name, I don't think unstable warp is really all that unstable. One does more damage while the other increases the blast radius on a warp explosion. Heavy warp is for the biotic looking to do maximum damage to a single target. Unstable warp looks to damage a group, but it can only be done as a biotic combo, which means the person is looking for backup from a fellow biotic to make the most out of ability. Jack is someone who I think would rather tune her biotics for her own use rather than depend on another, so she's a Heavy Warp kind of gal.

Thanks, Pacifien! Love the detail. Even though I know Jack's personality, I never really gave much thought to how she'd use her biotics in a fight. Well...I DID, but not to the extent that you've taken it. Thanks again for the advice.

[Loki330]

Probably been mentioned before, but I youtube'd liara's comment on jack (and got both the jealousy one as well as the one I was looking for.) Liara seemed to peg it rather nicely; said something along the lines of 'Teaching Jack to have faith in something other than anger'.

[Mondo47]

I think I always read it as being pretty damn close to what I would have penned, to be honest. When you first discuss the relationship with Liara she is hostile and a little rude about Jack - she judges her purely on her exterior in a very snobby manner. It fitted the scene perfectly - she has obsessed over Shepard for years and now he has cast her aside for some filthy little tattooed tramp. She's pissed and she's hurt too.

Then by the time you have the cabin conversation with her, she has cooled off and remembered what species she is. She's an asari; they live long lives, humans live short ones - nothing with Shepard would ever have been long-term for her (by asari standards anyway) so perhaps a relationship with a human makes more sense. And though we've seen nothing of it, it seems as though Liara has been exposed to Jack as a person to some degree (to be able to understand Jack's background and personality is going to take more than looking at her intel... we're talking about someone that has replaced her - intel will tell no woman about her rival like a face-to-face will), and maybe she can see that Shepard is not only moved on from their relationship, but has transitioned into another where he is helping a very dented and scratched person to repair themselves somewhat. Liara sounds not only slightly envious when she wishes Shepard and Jack well, but perhaps a little proud too; Shepard is working his particular magic on someone else - like he did with Wrex, or with Garrus, or Tali, or indeed anyone else Shepard touches... be he a hardnosed domineering demi-douchbag or a patient caring paragon (or something inbetween the two).

I don't think Shep's in any danger of changing Jack too much... I mean, he says himself "She's getting better... relatively speaking." It's not some overnight waving-of-a-wand bullsh*t we're talking about, but an actual evolving relationship, one where there's more than a bog-standard romance going on, but there is also an ongoing attempt not to change a person fundamentally, but to make them want to and be able to change themselves should they desire it. I don't read this stuff as manipulation, it's just Shepard making sure Jack knows his hand is held out for her should she need it. Total Paragon treatment would ****** Jack off to high heaven, and total Renegades will eventually be accepted as just another user - either way, Jack won't change because she'll dig her heels in. A Shepard that is inbetween the two poles is likely to alter Jack only in subtle ways; she might pause before acting, she might ask others advice without mocking them outright, she might show a little respect to others if she sees anything worth respecting in them... but I doubt very much she'd transform into someone we'd not recognise as Jack.

[tommyt_1994]

yorkj86 wrote...

Now that I think of it, I  wonder why there isn't any fanfiction of Jack speaking with Liara, even if it is only a short conversation.  If it's written in the "angst" genre, though, it could get weird.

As an aside, the way Liara somehow knew about Jack during the mission in Illium surprised me.  How the hell did she know? 

Well she is an information broker, I think it's likely that she checked up on Shepard when she heard he was alive. But how did info about him and Jack get out? I dunno, maybe Liara called Tali/Garrus up one night and they spread the gossip? It's a small ship and somehow Kasumi found about Shepard and Jack, I'm sure other people know as well.

[Barrendall]

I'm not in the least surprised that Liara's been keeping tabs on Shepard. If Mondo decided to add a blog about a conversation, arguement, or an all out cat-fight between Jack and Liara I for one would not complain

[Loki330]

yorkj86 wrote...
I wonder why we didn't have much of a response to what Shepard says to Liara about Jack during the cabin scene, though.   Maybe it's because it sort of makes it sound as if who we see Jack as is isn't actually who Jack is, and that the relationship is changing her?  Or is it that it makes the relationship sound manipulative?  As it is, it kind of flies in the face of the fact that the game's romances can't dramatically affect character development, because not everyone romances those characters.

Relationships are manipulative. It's worth noting if you're with Miranda Liara also mentions that you've really changed her. I simply raised the cabin dialogue out of interest because she'll say that even if you were single in ME1.

Modifié par Loki330, 07 novembre 2010 - 11:31 .

[Homebound]

I think ill use Jack and Samara on the same team. Oddly Ive never done that before.

[Mondo47]

tommyt_1994 wrote...

Well she is an information broker, I think it's likely that she checked up on Shepard when she heard he was alive. But how did info about him and Jack get out? I dunno, maybe Liara called Tali/Garrus up one night and they spread the gossip? It's a small ship and somehow Kasumi found about Shepard and Jack, I'm sure other people know as well.

Well, if your Shep took Jack with you on Illium (like mine generally do)... it wouldn't take much for a woman to spot there was something going on. You can joke about female intuition all you like (particularly as far as Fishfeeder Chambers goes ) but it wouldn't need much to make it obvious what was going on. Also in that respect I think Jack would be very easy for another woman to read; the staring-daggers when Liara talks to Shep, the sarcastic muttering behind everything Liara says, all the way up to an outright confrontational "Keep your hands to yourself if you want to keep 'em, b*tch" (Jack might lose someone to death, but you think she's going to sit back and lose out to some little bookworm asari?).

Note for all the guys - Women: We ALWAYS know

Well, it's that or Tali really is sending Liara shipboard gossip (I now have this mental image of Tali trying to write a diplomatic "Shepard and I are together now" email to Liara and failing miserably)

[Loki330]

Awww, Tali emailing Liara the good news (assuming celibate ME1 run) would be adorable. I could imagine that would make Liara have a smile for days

EDIT: Oh wait, Jack thread. In a similer vein, I imagine Liara would arch an eyebrow at Shep's choice of woman when she finds out. (That's the sort of woman Shepard likes? Okay, now I don't feel as bad at being shot down two years ago.)

Modifié par Loki330, 07 novembre 2010 - 12:26 .

[axl99]

I woulda thought Liara knew about Jack via the giant holo of her mug shot.

[Mondo47]

yorkj86 wrote...

I could see Liara lashing out at Jack if Jack keeps interrupting her, or following-up everything she says with a sarcastic comment.  Liara's very visibly distressed during the whole thing, and her patience is wearing thin.  Shepard has to tell her to slow down for just a second, at one point.

That would have been probably kinda amusing... Liara meeting a human that actually can put someone into a coffee cup

[axl99]

I dunno, Jack might also keep her comments to herself, speaking only when she needs to say something really important. Horizon and the pre-suicide mission interrupt on Miranda pop into mind.



A tattooed woman with anger issues? That hardly registers as an insult for someone like Jack. She might as well watch Liara put her foot in her mouth while Shepard tells her off.

[Mondo47]

Something to bear in mind is that potentially Shep could have taken Jack with him on their first encounter with Liara in the office. The awkward smooch... I think Jack might not be able to resist sticking the boot in when they meet up with her again later after things have started moving with her and Shepard. As for Liara's little tirade being offensive to Jack? Nah, that'd be water off a duck's back to her, but we know as observers that Liara is intending it to be a less that positive observation.

Sometimes I think mature, adult reactions would take a little more pause for thought than Jack is willing to give right off the bat. I don't think it's unreasonable that given the denial of serious, not-ulterior-motive-driven emotional interaction Jack would be at times be a little emotionally immature or prone to just snapping (much the way she did when she went to have it out with Miranda - it's not in Jack's nature to back down or roll over for others... displays of weakness like that aren't respected or are outright abused in the circles she's travelled in).

I certainly don't think the spiteful little girl in Jack is beyond rearing her head in the right given situations, and I can't always see them being very appropriate. But hey, I'd just assume Shepard would tell her to cut her sh*t for a minute and she'd grumble into silence for a while... and then later sound off at him for it until she got an explaination of why she was out of line. I think it's safe to assume Jack needs a little guidance here and there when it comes to "fitting in"... but as the man himself tells us, she is getting better at that point.

[Barrendall]

Mondo47 wrote...

Something to bear in mind is that potentially Shep could have taken Jack with him on their first encounter with Liara in the office. The awkward smooch... I think Jack might not be able to resist sticking the boot in when they meet up with her again later after things have started moving with her and Shepard. As for Liara's little tirade being offensive to Jack? Nah, that'd be water off a duck's back to her, but we know as observers that Liara is intending it to be a less that positive observation.
Sometimes I think mature, adult reactions would take a little more pause for thought than Jack is willing to give right off the bat. I don't think it's unreasonable that given the denial of serious, not-ulterior-motive-driven emotional interaction Jack would be at times be a little emotionally immature or prone to just snapping (much the way she did when she went to have it out with Miranda - it's not in Jack's nature to back down or roll over for others... displays of weakness like that aren't respected or are outright abused in the circles she's travelled in).
I certainly don't think the spiteful little girl in Jack is beyond rearing her head in the right given situations, and I can't always see them being very appropriate. But hey, I'd just assume Shepard would tell her to cut her sh*t for a minute and she'd grumble into silence for a while... and then later sound off at him for it until she got an explaination of why she was out of line. I think it's safe to assume Jack needs a little guidance here and there when it comes to "fitting in"... but as the man himself tells us, she is getting better at that point.

I'm sure she is learning by Shepard's example as well.  It seems to me that much of her education was fed to her this way as she grew up.  Taking her on missions and showing her alternatives to fighting unless it's the last resort or using diplomacy to achieve one's goals may or may not rub off on her.  I can't see her turning into some kind of Mother Theresa but I do see her smoothing a couple of the sharper corners of her persona.  Specifically in dealing with the other squad members on the team.

[Gethforceone]

Sundown Native wrote...

Hey, all. Sorry to cut into the topic -- which I'll be reading up on soon -- but I just wanted to give you guys an update, seeing as I haven't typed anything down here for who knows how long.

For those who were reading it, the Son Of Mindoir's next chapter is being written down, as we speak. To bring it from that cliffhanger I left it on. Should be done by Monday, or three or four minutes into Tuesday. Just so you know.

Sundown out.

Good to hear man!

[Loki330]

I woner which class Jack would have an easier time relating to-I think she might find it easier to relate to a Shepard that's a vanguard, depending on how they view the 'upgrade' for their implant. I always imagines my vanguard resent it. While the charge was very useful, it was still them just upgrading her body because they felt like it. I think Jack could relate to that.

[Collider]

Biotics, definitely. Too bad we don't really get an insight as to how Shepard was trained, though. If it was rigorous they could empathize that way, although Jack would always have had the less fortune experience. Of the biotic classes it would be Vanguard, no doubt. Of the non-biotic classes, definitely soldier. Engineer and Infiltrator are too behind the scenes.

Modifié par Collider, 08 novembre 2010 - 02:43 .