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[Jedi Master of Orion]

Mondo47 wrote...

yorkj86 wrote...

If you're not paying attention, of course you'll miss it.  If you're not paying attention, you'll see only the tattooed **** front, and in that case, of course it would seem that Jack changes too fast.   You have to be willing to amend your intial impression of Jack in order to properly understand her.

That Jack vs. Morinth thread really is crackling with people that seem to have missed the point of Jack. I'd go over and point out Jack's not a psychopath but I'm afraid they'd all tell me the Easter Bunny isn't real in revenge

I do wonder though... if Jack is a "rage-addicted psychopath" who "does a complete 180" because of "Shepard's mighty penis" and is a "complete b*tch" (because she yells at Miranda and reacts badly to being used for casual sex... duh), is this not a case of Jack polarising the audience as the writers intended, but her completely confusing half of the audience. I can't help but think that the hype machine is somewhat responsible for this mess - if this is indeed what it is.

What's funny is even if these are the most common complaints about Jack, they're kind of totally contradictory. Even if one of them were true, it can't be both.

Well it's not exactly the first time that certain fans (in any franchise) will have an illogical antipathy towards a chracter  they don't seem interested in understanding correctly.

[axl99]

About what Mondo mentioned earlier about the Jack romance,

I kinda wanted to see more Jack/Shepard interaction. For me it felt like there was a tiny block of conversation missing, and while it might have well been the "I'm still thinking about the relationship" bit which I caught post-game.. But still~! ~

Funny thing I noticed. With male sheps LI's there's always some sort of physical contact initiated during convos way before the romance scenes. Hand holding, kissing, what have you. With Jack, there aren't any. The only thing that comes even remotely close is Shep sitting beside her on her cot.

Modifié par axl99, 10 novembre 2010 - 11:08 .

[Pacifien]

As for that article posted in the Jack vs. Morinth thread, I had surprisingly zero reaction to it. I know that people view Jack differently. I know that going into the DSM-V definition of psychopath isn't going to stop people from calling her a psychopath. I know that just because I personally didn't get the idea that only a man can save Jack that others aren't going to feel the same way.

Everything about every character to me has been about what the player brings into it. One romance is deeper than the other. One friendship is more solid. This one is more principled. This one is better at combat. But these games, they're not like reading George R. R. Martin's Song of Ice and Fire series. I don't have chapters upon chapters of character depth and world-building detail to analyze here. There's so little given to us, every glance, every word is vital to us building an interpretation of the character.

Why do I identify with Jack more than others? I don't know. Essay for another day.

[Mondo47]

Now that's an interesting observation, Axl. It's usually the other person that initiates it, mind you (Miranda paws Shep, Tali paws Shep, Jacob actually takes Shep's hands - I have to say I love that moment for my sins - etc.)... so does Jack not want to because to do so would be far too much like coming out from behind the tower of sh*t, and does Shep avoid it because he doesn't want to intrude in Jack's space out of respect and understanding of her past?

[Gethforceone]

Mondo47 wrote...

yorkj86 wrote...

If you're not paying attention, of course you'll miss it.  If you're not paying attention, you'll see only the tattooed **** front, and in that case, of course it would seem that Jack changes too fast.   You have to be willing to amend your intial impression of Jack in order to properly understand her.

That Jack vs. Morinth thread really is crackling with people that seem to have missed the point of Jack. I'd go over and point out Jack's not a psychopath but I'm afraid they'd all tell me the Easter Bunny isn't real in revenge

I do wonder though... if Jack is a "rage-addicted psychopath" who "does a complete 180" because of "Shepard's mighty penis" and is a "complete b*tch" (because she yells at Miranda and reacts badly to being used for casual sex... duh), is this not a case of Jack polarising the audience as the writers intended, but her completely confusing half of the audience. I can't help but think that the hype machine is somewhat responsible for this mess - if this is indeed what it is.

While I think that quite a few people do that, I also think that some people just don't care about any of the characters, and that is where some of those comments come from.

[Gethforceone]

Mondo47 wrote...

Now that's an interesting observation, Axl. It's usually the other person that initiates it, mind you (Miranda paws Shep, Tali paws Shep, Jacob actually takes Shep's hands - I have to say I love that moment for my sins - etc.)... so does Jack not want to because to do so would be far too much like coming out from behind the tower of sh*t, and does Shep avoid it because he doesn't want to intrude in Jack's space out of respect and understanding of her past?

But wasn't she the one that asked Shep if he was interested in the first place?

Modifié par Gethforceone, 11 novembre 2010 - 12:22 .

[Mondo47]

Gethforceone wrote...

But wasn't she the one that asked Shep if he was interested in the first place?

Yeah, because he was (seemingly) expressing an interest - people that do that with Jack want something. I see that as Jack trying to get a measure of him; she's wanting to trust the guy, but what he's doing fits the behaviour for yet another user, so, she'll just lay it out there and find out. Hey, she'll get a lay out of it at least if he does turn out to be a douchebag...

[Mondo47]

yorkj86 wrote...

One part of that article that really rustles my jimmies is when the author calls the final romance scene "borderline male rape fantasy", because Jack cries.  Moreover, I think the author says it because when Jack lays down, the tears are still on her face?   There's exaggeration, there's hyperbole, and then there's...that.

That's just projection... that's got to be someone laying their own baggage on the scene. Hasn't it? I mean, were all those old romantic melodramas rape fantasies? It's an old romantic trope as far as I'm concerned. Reading it in such a serious manner just seems a trifle overwrought. What's next - because Shep's on top it's codified male oppression?

[axl99]

PFT. I'd say fair game since most of the other females for male Shep dominate his ass in bed, and femme Shep gets all the adorably awkward peeps.

[adriano_c]

Can I get a link to this "article"? I could use the laugh.

[jlb524]

I think the problem I have with the Jackmance is that it seems too emotionally one-sided. Jack wears her emotions on her sleeve and she's definitely the most expressive of all the LIs in the series (which is probably why I have the problem with her and none others). Shepard, however, gives none in return....he's like a rock. That bothers me...I expect him to get emotional if Jack is here pouring out her heart and her everything to him.

I did read the article....I think the author makes valid points, but a lot of it comes off as un-fair ranting, since she absolutely hates the romance.

If they just wrote Shepard better, I think the romance would be great. As it stands, Jack is pouring her heart out (which must be difficult for her) and he acts like it's another day at the office.

I mean, if it were me and I cared about Jack, and she was pouring her heart out to me, I would respond with some emotion...the things she was telling me would affect me on a deep level.  I don't see this with Shepard.  

Modifié par jlb524, 11 novembre 2010 - 01:48 .

[Pacifien]

Man, they missed a prime opportunity to have Jack ask Shepard about his past in exchange and let the users have that ever brief experience of being able to mention whatever past they gave their Shepard. I mean, Earthborn Shepard has to have a lot in common with Jack. Akuze Shepard definitely wants to get in on the Cerberus hatin'. War Hero Shepard.... well, I can see Jack saying something snarky about it.

[jlb524]

Pacifien wrote...

Man, they missed a prime opportunity to have Jack ask Shepard about his past in exchange and let the users have that ever brief experience of being able to mention whatever past they gave their Shepard. I mean, Earthborn Shepard has to have a lot in common with Jack. Akuze Shepard definitely wants to get in on the Cerberus hatin'. War Hero Shepard.... well, I can see Jack saying something snarky about it.

Exactly....Jack is unique (as far as LIs go) in that she has a bunch of crap that she's dealt with and buried behind her, and so should Shepard (with whatever background he/she has).  I find it a bit odd that she would reveal it all so much to someone who also isn't reciprocating it back.  I think if Shepard had also revealed a bit about himself to her, what makes him tick and what drives him on, it would have then made sense for Jack to continue on revealing more of her past, and discussing her feelings, etc.  But, this never happens...Shepard just kind of shows up one day with his 'oh, you totally want this, Jack' and Jack starts letting it all out. 

I think a lot of trust is built over sharing things with others..you share, and then they share.  She just...starts sharing with someone (I feel) she shouldn't trust, based on the dialog Shepard has with her. 

So, basically, my problem lies with trust....they didn't convince me enough that Jack should trust Shepard enough, based on the dialog. 

Modifié par jlb524, 11 novembre 2010 - 02:05 .

[FireEye]

Jack fen, if I may I have a moment?

Jack's loyalty quest is giving me trouble.  Instead of being able to roam around her room at the very end of the quest, I keep getting jumped to the end shuttle sequence.  Someone in the technical support forum suggested that s/he was able to go back save by save until one before picking up the quest worked, but for me that was half the game ago - does anyone know if there's a better solution, or am I out of luck here? 

(I know this isn't the technical support forum, but there's scant information there other than it being a known issue and I figured that if anyone knew, it would probably be you guys.)

[tommyt_1994]

FireEye wrote...

Jack fen, if I may I have a moment?

Jack's loyalty quest is giving me trouble.  Instead of being able to roam around her room at the very end of the quest, I keep getting jumped to the end shuttle sequence.  Someone in the technical support forum suggested that s/he was able to go back save by save until one before picking up the quest worked, but for me that was half the game ago - does anyone know if there's a better solution, or am I out of luck here? 

(I know this isn't the technical support forum, but there's scant information there other than it being a known issue and I figured that if anyone knew, it would probably be you guys.)

You are choosing the "feel free to look around" option correct? I'm not trying to sound condescending but I'm pretty sure the other option forces the shuttle scene to immediately commence.

[FireEye]

tommyt_1994 wrote...

You are choosing the "feel free to look around" option correct? I'm not trying to sound condescending but I'm pretty sure the other option forces the shuttle scene to immediately commence.

Yeah, it's with the "look around" optioin...  and after that, I get a couple of seconds where Jack starts to talk and I can move Shepard one step or so, but then I'm in the cutscene. 

[tommyt_1994]

FireEye wrote...

tommyt_1994 wrote...

You are choosing the "feel free to look around" option correct? I'm not trying to sound condescending but I'm pretty sure the other option forces the shuttle scene to immediately commence.

Yeah, it's with the "look around" optioin...  and after that, I get a couple of seconds where Jack starts to talk and I can move Shepard one step or so, but then I'm in the cutscene. 

Yeah that has to be some sort of glitch and not user error. Sorry wish I could help, that's one of the most emotional scenes in the game.

[FenrisDeSolar]

FireEye wrote...

tommyt_1994 wrote...

You are choosing the "feel free to look around" option correct? I'm not trying to sound condescending but I'm pretty sure the other option forces the shuttle scene to immediately commence.

Yeah, it's with the "look around" optioin...  and after that, I get a couple of seconds where Jack starts to talk and I can move Shepard one step or so, but then I'm in the cutscene. 

If you've installed any DLC's that could be why. 

It's a shame you can't see it, you get to learn a lot about Jack. :3

[Errationatus]

yorkj86 wrote...

adriano_c wrote...

Can I get a link to this "article"? I could use the laugh.

http://ferretbrain.c...les/article-563

It's not all bad.   There are some cogent points.  The author just seems to be paranoid.

One major problem with that article is that it's predicated on just why Jack is crying, which leads to it being that Shepard takes advantage of her whilst she cries, which, if true, is pretty damn sleazy.

The problem is that there is nothing in that scene or leading up to it that says that's what he does.

Why does Jack cry in that scene?

Without knowing why, calling it "creepy" , or a "misogynist rape fantasy" is just fvck'n stupid.

It could have been something as simple as Jack expressing relief, she stuck her neck out emotionally - no small feat for her, and Shepard just happened to be genuine - or - and correct me if I'm wrong - people do cry when they're happy, no?

Without that initial premise that polemic against Jack is just the bullsh!t of someone with too many "Feminist Studies 101" classes with a minor in psych who didn't pay much attention in either class.

[jlb524]

I'm a feminist, but I'm still not sure where the author gets a 'rape fantasy vibe' from the Jack Paragon love scene. I mean, she's not crying b/c she doesn't want sex and Shepard is forcing it on her...that's ridiculous. I still don't believe it's entirely clear that they do even have sex.

She's crying as she's overcome with the emotion of the situation. Again, I just wish Shepard would have shown more of it too.

That's why I think, though she brought up some good points, she took it all a bit too far.

Modifié par jlb524, 11 novembre 2010 - 02:45 .

[FenrisDeSolar]

I must say, much as I love Jack, I didn't like her romance. Like so many other of the romances it wasn't developed properly. The evolution of it is too rushed. I'd have much preferred if you never actually sleep with Jack in ME2. Or if she wasn't at all available as a LI.



The last thing Jack needs is a relationship.

[FireEye]

FenrisDeSolar wrote...

If you've installed any DLC's that could be why. 

It's a shame you can't see it, you get to learn a lot about Jack. :3

Last time I played, I can't remember, but maybe I hadn't bought Kasumi yet...

And I was taking Kasumi with me this time...

Maybe if I don't take Kasumi?  Or perhaps delete/redownload Kasumi?  I guess I could try that...