20813 réponses à ce sujet

[Quaay]

When she shut out my femShep it only made me want to try harder. She's the main reason I rolled a dudeShep. I was so intrigued by her I wanted to get to know her more and I'm glad I did. She's my favorite female in the MEverse.

[JediMB]

Xilizhra wrote...

Are you implying that Jack isn't stable? If so, how do you figure? Now this is just my two cents, but I highly doubt that TIM would recommend someone to Shepard that's going hamper his mission more than help.

Well... Miranda/Jack fight.

Really, all Miranda had to do was admit that what Cerberus did, even if the Illusive Man wasn't involved, was wrong. She said as much to Shepard later, so why not to Jack?

[Xilizhra]

Presumably because Miranda doesn't roll like that. Don't get me wrong, I'm on Jack's side in this confrontation; however, breaking out one's lethal biotic powers over an argument like this doesn't exactly scream "mentally stable."

[AntiChri5]

Throwing a chair is not a lethal display of biotic powers, not from someone capable of killing four YMIR mechs and then smashing through a wall in two sceonds with only only her biotic power. The chair throwing is really just a "Get the **** away from me" gesture.

[Amyntas]

Miranda knew that Jack would react this way. She still pushed Jack over the edge to prove her "superiority". Miranda was as aggressive as Jack, just in a more controlled way. She exploited an emotional weakness.

Modifié par Amyntas, 22 décembre 2010 - 02:21 .

[Xilizhra]

AntiChri5 wrote...

Throwing a chair is not a lethal display of biotic powers, not from someone capable of killing four YMIR mechs and then smashing through a wall in two sceonds with only only her biotic power. The chair throwing is really just a "Get the **** away from me" gesture.

But... why would she want Miranda to get away from her, when she'd come into Miranda's office?

Ah well. Thank goodness for high Paragon points, that's all I can say.

[royceclemens]

Xilizhra wrote...

AntiChri5 wrote...

Throwing a chair is not a lethal display of biotic powers, not from someone capable of killing four YMIR mechs and then smashing through a wall in two sceonds with only only her biotic power. The chair throwing is really just a "Get the **** away from me" gesture.

But... why would she want Miranda to get away from her, when she'd come into Miranda's office?

Ah well. Thank goodness for high Paragon points, that's all I can say.

I believe the words were "TOUCH ME AND I'LL SMEAR THE WALLS WITH YOU, B---H!"

If Miranda is dumb enough to touch Jack, she deserves to get smeared.  Doesn't matter whose office it was in.  If you're in my office, do I get to grope you as I see fit?  No I do not.

If Jack was unstable, she'd have smeared Miranda anyway.  By this rationale, cops are unstable for firing warning shots.

Modifié par royceclemens, 22 décembre 2010 - 03:06 .

[Collider]

I didn't like the confrontation much. The start of the argument/fight was far too vague.

[royceclemens]

Collider wrote...

I didn't like the confrontation much. The start of the argument/fight was far too vague.

I'm gonna have to disagree with you, there, friend.  The vagueness of the fight made it tougher to pick a side (if you didn't have enough Paragon or Renegade points, that is).  If Jack went up there to berate Miranda, then Miranda's gonna be the one you side with.  If Miranda invited Jack to her office to berate her, then Jack's gonna be who you side with.  It neutralizes the cold, clinical line of thinking.  The part that says "I'll side with X because Y started it."

Modifié par royceclemens, 22 décembre 2010 - 03:24 .

[Collider]

I believe something like that compels people simply to side with their favorite, which is what confrontations shouldn't be.



Most people are going to

a. Not try to speculate any notable amount to how the fight started

b. As a result of not knowing all of the facts, just side with whatever character they like more.



The fight being vague causes only an artificial "difficulty" to the fight. ME2 succeeded in otherwise having ambiguous moral choices because Shepard had a reasonable grasp of situation.



In the Jack/Miranda confrontation I have to "guess" how it started and and why it started, and how it progressed into Miranda's office. I can see the utility of keeping things vague so players can project their own interpretation, but I personally do not like it.

[AntiChri5]

But... why would she want Miranda to get away from her, when she'd come into Miranda's office?

We don't know why she went there.

Jack is Mirandas subordinate, if Miranda wanted to talk to Jack she would call Jack into her office.

There are dozens of perfectly plausible and legitimate reasons for Miranda to call Jack into her office.

Does Miri conduct regular employee reviews as part of her rolse as XO?

Did Miri want to try and make peace with Jack?

Was Miranda offering to give advice regarding biotics?



The fight taking place in Mirandas office means nothing.

[Errationatus]

Collider wrote...

I didn't like the confrontation much. The start of the argument/fight was far too vague.

Well, Jack's actions would appear to have been in response to a threat, no?

"Touch me and I'll smear the walls with you, b!tch!" isn't exactly an opening line, really. 

It was perfectly legit for Jack - never having been taught the so-called "higher" social graces to learn what she's learned and go to the "top" - within her reach, as it were - and demand some kind of explanation.

Miranda's stubborn refusal and shallow appreciation of the horrors of Teltin (something that forever makes her completely repugnant to me - no matter how she 'redeems' herself later - there's no justifying it. Miranda can go fvck herself and stay that way. I only help her because my Sheps owe her for resurrecting them) is more than enough justification for Jack to react the way she did. 

She had every right, and I always side with Jack, even as a full-on Renegade.  In the scenarios in my head, Shep dumps Miranda's ass of the ship as soon as he/she can.

[Collider]

It's this thread all over again

[Collider]

Well, Jack's actions would appear to have been in response to a threat, no?

It does, but the question is what is the threat? Is it Miranda? It might be. Or is it just Cerberus? Might be. Personally I wouldn't doubt that Jack sees Miranda as the "face" of Cerberus, and thus focuses her anger on her. Whatever the case, I have to play guessing games because the game does not tell me. I have to speculate. I don't know if Miranda actually threatened Jack. What I do know is that they're trading insults and don't agree on Cerberus. That's basically what they've been doing the entire time since Jack has come on the ship.

Modifié par Collider, 22 décembre 2010 - 03:44 .

[AntiChri5]

What i dislike most about the confrontation is nit knowing what prompted Jacks "Touch me" line.

It could be she is overreacting, but i can't discount her reaction without knowing what prompted it so i have to assume it was serious enough to warrant her reaction.

[The Unfallen]

Although I don't romance her (I don't romance any character.) Jack is hawt. Especially with hair!



-Hides awaiting hatespam-

[Collider]

I interpreted that as Jack talking about Cerberus rather than Miranda trying to "touch her." But as you (seem) to imply, the problem is that we should have known why she said that.

[royceclemens]

But if we know how the fight started, then it's Eddie Izzard's "Cake or Death" conundrum, isn't it? Choosing between having cake or getting put to death isn't really a choice. The same thing applies here. If we know who started it, nine times out of ten, we'll side with the other. It's not a choice. It's perfunctory button clicking.



Which is why I don't like Paragon or Renegading out of it either, even though I'm a complete and total hypocrite and take the Paragon option anyway. Lose one squaddie's loyalty and have them bite the dust later, or lose neither? Gee, I wonder which one ninety-nine percent of the people who have the option are gonna take? That's not a choice either.



And I hate to harp on this, but you're implying that if we know who started the fight, that would stop people from picking their favorites. I'm sorry, but they're gonna do that anyway.

[AntiChri5]

I really do need to know more about the fight. I hate making the decision without all the facts.

What really makes me side with Jack though is that Miranda won't acknowledge what she has been through, when she could do so without admitting Cerberus was responsible.

[Xilizhra]

Miranda's stubborn refusal and shallow appreciation of the horrors of Teltin (something that forever makes her completely repugnant to me - no matter how she 'redeems' herself later - there's no justifying it. Miranda can go fvck herself and stay that way. I only help her because my Sheps owe her for resurrecting them) is more than enough justification for Jack to react the way she did.

I find this fascinating, because of the stark division here between many of those who side with Miranda on the matter and those who side with Jack; I've seen both, having trailed through the Miranda thread.

[Collider]

But if we know how the fight started, then it's Eddie Izzard's "Cake or Death" conundrum, isn't it? Choosing between having cake or getting put to death isn't really a choice. The same thing applies here. If we know who started it, nine times out of ten, we'll side with the other. It's not a choice. It's perfunctory button clicking.

It's not impossible for the person who started the fight to have a good reason for doing so, or a sympathetic reason for doing so. And it's also not impossible to have both characters equally responsible for the fight starting - or the fight starting in such a way that pinning blame to either character would be difficult at best. Basically, I want to know how Jack and Miranda got to point B, especially because of Jack's loaded "touch me and I'll.." comment and the fact that it's in Miranda's office somehow instead of somewhere neutral. Both of these things point to something important that should have been told to the player.



Course, it's just my opinion. The confrontation itself (and my dislike of it) doesn't effect nor is based upon how much I like either of the characters themselves. I simply think that it does not do either of them justice, especially Jack.

And I hate to harp on this, but you're implying that if we know who started the fight, that would stop people from picking their favorites. I'm sorry, but they're gonna do that anyway.

Not quite. More in the manner of "if it's this vague, people are more likely to default to their favorite."

[Errationatus]

Collider wrote...

Well, Jack's actions would appear to have been in response to a threat, no?

It does, but the question is what is the threat? Is it Miranda? It might be. Or is it just Cerberus? Might be. Personally I wouldn't doubt that Jack sees Miranda as the "face" of Cerberus, and thus focuses her anger on her. Whatever the case, I have to play guessing games because the game does not tell me. I have to speculate. I don't know if Miranda actually threatened Jack. What I do know is that they're trading insults and don't agree on Cerberus. That's basically what they've been doing the entire time since Jack has come on the ship.

In many ways, both ladies are social stunted - they're a distorted mirror image of one another.  Perhaps that recognition is what spurs the animosity. 

However, the most striking difference is that Jack  - and this might strike people as strange - has a conscience, whereas Miranda does not.  Her calling Jack a "mistake" is no different to me than some cop telling a beaten rape victim that maybe "she brought it on herself and was asking for it". 

Her last minute "oh, this is nasty" about the Collectors looks to me like a last-ditch effort to redeem something from this thoroughly distasteful woman.  Does not work for me, I'm afraid.  I have never understood how Miranda gets the praise and Jack gets the scorn.  There is some fundamental disconnect in people's heads that somehow, somehow, the woman who wanted to put a control chip in your head, can casually brush aside the horrors of Teltin and Aite and all the rest is morally superior to one of her victims. 

I hate to invoke Godwin's Law here, but administering Auschwitz from Berlin makes you AS GUILTY as being a guard inside.

Miranda may not have been at Teltin, but she's as guilty as anyone there.

[Errationatus]

Xilizhra wrote...

Miranda's stubborn refusal and shallow appreciation of the horrors of Teltin (something that forever makes her completely repugnant to me - no matter how she 'redeems' herself later - there's no justifying it. Miranda can go fvck herself and stay that way. I only help her because my Sheps owe her for resurrecting them) is more than enough justification for Jack to react the way she did.

I find this fascinating, because of the stark division here between many of those who side with Miranda on the matter and those who side with Jack; I've seen both, having trailed through the Miranda thread.

I don't side with Jack because I prefer her over Miranda.  As I said to Collider, I side with Jack because Miranda is basically an ethical vacuum and there is nothing about her that is morally defensible.  Not her concern for her sister, not her "turn" at the end.  Zip. Nada.  Zero, so to speak.

The people who prefer Miranda really, really need to ask themselves why.  Because I just can't see it.

Jack is a criminal, yes, sure, whatever.  I simply prefer her because of the two - Jack is clearly the superior person in almost every way that matters.  Some might even call it the "lesser of two evils", but that ignores an awful lot on Miranda's part.

Maybe I'm just old fashioned and weird.  *Shrug*

Modifié par JakeMacDon, 22 décembre 2010 - 05:28 .

[adriano_c]

JakeMacDon wrote...

Her calling Jack a "mistake" is no different to me than some cop telling a beaten rape victim that maybe "she brought it on herself and was asking for it".

Eh, care to elaborate?

I just had to dig up the video on youtube to refresh my memory...

Jack - The cheerleader won't admit what Cerberus did to me was wrong.
MIranda - It wasn't Cerberus. Not really. But clearly you were a mistake.
Jack - Screw you! You've got no idea what they put me through! Maybe it's time I showed you!

...I don't get that "rape victim in the wrong" comparison at all.

I mean, how was labeling her a mistake wrong? What they did was wrong and therefore a mistake (in judgement, morality, whatever), hence Jack, as she is currently, is by extension also a mistake.

Or does it have something to do with the tone?

[Pacifien]

Tone, I suspect. Miranda could have said "Clearly what they did was a mistake," but instead her words are to point out that it is Jack specifically who is the mistake.