20813 réponses à ce sujet

[adriano_c]

Pacifien wrote...

Tone, I suspect. Miranda could have said "Clearly what they did was a mistake," but instead her words are to point out that it is Jack specifically who is the mistake.

I guess the wording does in a way somewhat bypass Cerberus' foul up (and accountability) by implying that Jack is some sort of 'invalid' or whatever.

Still, I think overall, it was a rather tacit admission of guilt.

Anyway, doesn't she (Miranda) say as much in a conversation with Shepard afterward? Something along the lines of "it was a mistake, no question"?

[Pacifien]

I take Miranda and Jack's confrontation as a visual representation of a flame war. Miranda might have felt that what the Teltin Cell did was wrong, but she wasn't going to give Jack the satisfaction of knowing that, especially if Jack was going to be in-your-face about it. Instead, she chose her words to cut deep.

[AntiChri5]

Very well put Paci.

[SirOccam]

JakeMacDon wrote...

I hate to invoke Godwin's Law here, but administering Auschwitz from Berlin makes you AS GUILTY as being a guard inside.

Miranda may not have been at Teltin, but she's as guilty as anyone there.

But did Miranda "administer" Teltin? Aren't they entirely different cells? I am genuinely curious, as I could easily be misunderstanding. But my understanding was that Cerberus cells are more or less independent of all the other ones. And besides, Miranda doesn't seem much older than Jack, so she'd probably be a child herself when that stuff was happening to Jack (that's purely speculation on my part; I have no idea how old either one is).

I think a more apt analogy would be holding an Air Force general responsible for Abu Ghraib. They were all part of the US military, but one had nothing to do with the other.

[AntiChri5]

Miranda is almost 40 (i think she is 39)

Jack is 24.

[adriano_c]

SirOccam wrote...

But did Miranda "administer" Teltin? Aren't they entirely different cells? I am genuinely curious, as I could easily be misunderstanding. But my understanding was that Cerberus cells are more or less independent of all the other ones. And besides, Miranda doesn't seem much older than Jack, so she'd probably be a child herself when that stuff was happening to Jack (that's purely speculation on my part; I have no idea how old either one is).

I think a more apt analogy would be holding an Air Force general responsible for Abu Ghraib. They were all part of the US military, but one had nothing to do with the other.

As I recall, you're right, all those "cells" operate independently of one another (without so much as even knowing the membership's identity, I think), while under The Illusive Man's loose supervision. So, no, Miranda isn't directly responsible for Jack's situation. However, her standing (Miranda's) as some sort of officer under the Cerberus banner makes her guilty by association (in Jack's mind).

[JediMB]

royceclemens wrote...

But if we know how the fight started, then it's Eddie Izzard's "Cake or Death" conundrum, isn't it? Choosing between having cake or getting put to death isn't really a choice. The same thing applies here. If we know who started it, nine times out of ten, we'll side with the other. It's not a choice. It's perfunctory button clicking.

Which is why I don't like Paragon or Renegading out of it either, even though I'm a complete and total hypocrite and take the Paragon option anyway. Lose one squaddie's loyalty and have them bite the dust later, or lose neither? Gee, I wonder which one ninety-nine percent of the people who have the option are gonna take? That's not a choice either.

And I hate to harp on this, but you're implying that if we know who started the fight, that would stop people from picking their favorites. I'm sorry, but they're gonna do that anyway.

If nothing else, it would be nice to see some more conflict resolutions along the lines of the argument with Wrex on Virmire. Where you actually have to think about what dialogue options you choose. Preferably something that requires you to actually know your squad mates well in order for you to succeed.

[Epantiras]

AntiChri5 wrote...

Miranda is almost 40 (i think she is 39)
Jack is 24.

Miranda's 35 (from the Wiki and the Me2 website) but during that catfight, she actis like a spoiled child. As Paci said, the whole fight is nothing but a flame war: each side tries to deal as much damage to the other one without really trying to reach an agreement.

Collider wrote...
Course, it's just my opinion. The
confrontation itself (and my dislike of it) doesn't effect nor is based
upon how much I like either of the characters themselves.

My canon Shepard is a colonist, therefore hates everything Cerberus. Basically, she was constantly disagreeing with Miranda from day one. Don't misunderstand me: that's roleplaying. I really enjoyed that because I really felt that Shepard was "in enemy territory" and being always second-guessed by Miranda added to that feeling.
My Shepard always sided with Jack whenever given the option (like during the dialogue scene right after her recruitment) and during the catfight I was "yay! I can finally tell Miranda what I think". Then Miranda felt outraged and closed her door in front of Shepard, refusing to talk and losing her loyal status. Merde. I had to metagame and use the renegade choice to end the fight without losing loyalties! Because I, as a player, I don't hate Miranda.

Collider wrote...

I interpreted that as Jack talking about
Cerberus rather than Miranda trying to "touch her." But as you (seem)
to imply, the problem is that we should have known why she said that.

I assume that Miranda tried to touch Jack's shoulders in order to either calm her down or shove her out of her office. Or maybe she simply made one step forward her and Jack overreacted, thinking that Miranda wanted to harm her in some kind of way - remember that in Jack's mind, everyone wants to hurt her, especially Cerberus operatives.

Modifié par Epantiras, 22 décembre 2010 - 07:49 .

[Gethforceone]

Pacifien wrote...

I take Miranda and Jack's confrontation as a visual representation of a flame war. Miranda might have felt that what the Teltin Cell did was wrong, but she wasn't going to give Jack the satisfaction of knowing that, especially if Jack was going to be in-your-face about it. Instead, she chose her words to cut deep.

Indeed.

But I have to wonder if she's just saying some things for Shepard's benefit.

[Gethforceone]

Epantiras wrote...

My canon Shepard is a colonist, therefore hates everything Cerberus. Basically, she was constantly disagreeing with Miranda from day one. Don't misunderstand me: that's roleplaying. I really enjoyed that because I really felt that Shepard was "in enemy territory" and being always second-guessed by Miranda added to that feeling.
My Shepard always sided with Jack whenever given the option (like during the dialogue scene right after her recruitment) and during the catfight I was "yay! I can finally tell Miranda what I think". Then Miranda felt outraged and closed her door in front of Shepard, refusing to talk and losing her loyal status. Merde. I had to metagame and use the renegade choice to end the fight without losing loyalties! Because I, as a player, I don't hate Miranda.

See that's one thing I love about this game, I myself can't stand Miri, but at the same time it's great to have a teammate that you can fight with. So I always make sure she comes out  alive, even when unloyal.

[Batlass8]

I always thought that the fight started out in the mess or some other common area, and Miranda retreated to her office, thinking that would end things, but Jack is not the type to let things go. I like Jack, but I'll admit that she's probably to blame for any escalation for this argument from shouting to biotics. Pacifien is most likely right...regardless of how things started, it probably devolved to the point where neither one was willing to give any ground. Thus the necessary Shepard intervention.

[SlottsMachine]

 Was recently tying to change my xbox live avatar to look like Jack, interestingly enough there wasn't a choice to make the avatar topless, go figure. So I thought I'd look at some of the dresses available, and I grew to really like the look of Jack in a dress but wearing boots similar to the ones in her appearance pack, yeah maybe a little to cute but still badass looking. I could see Jack going through a phase at some point, were maybe she changes her appearance and such trying to fit into an ideal she may think Shep has of her, and failing miserably. 


(Jack after wearing various dresses and such over the past few days, is finally back to what she likes best, the bra strap and cargo pants. Her and Shepard are snuggling after sharing an intimate moment.)

Jack - "I'm sorry I failed in my attempt to look "normal" for you, it just isn't in me"
Shep trying not to laugh - "I don't even know why you bothered, I'll love you no matter, clothes aren't going to change that"
Jack - "what's so funny, oh I get it, this is all a joke to you, well f*** you" Jack hits Shep in the arm, and storms off.
Shep laughing now -"wait Jack come back" 
Shep muttering to himself - "i don't know where she gets these crazy ideas, i'll be living this one down for a long time" Shep sighs of fatigue.  

[Errationatus]

adriano_c wrote...

JakeMacDon wrote...

Her calling Jack a "mistake" is no different to me than some cop telling a beaten rape victim that maybe "she brought it on herself and was asking for it".

Eh, care to elaborate?

I just had to dig up the video on youtube to refresh my memory...

Jack - The cheerleader won't admit what Cerberus did to me was wrong.
MIranda - It wasn't Cerberus. Not really. But clearly you were a mistake.
Jack - Screw you! You've got no idea what they put me through! Maybe it's time I showed you!

...I don't get that "rape victim in the wrong" comparison at all.

I mean, how was labeling her a mistake wrong? What they did was wrong and therefore a mistake (in judgement, morality, whatever), hence Jack, as she is currently, is by extension also a mistake.

Or does it have something to do with the tone?

Pacifen was correct - it was more tone than anything, I suppose.  It's as if Miranda is blaming Jack for being Jack and absolving herself of any complicity whatever.  Just doesn't wash for me - Miranda is one of, if not the most important of TIM's operatives, no? 

There is no way in hell she's as ignorant as she professes.  It's unmitigated bullsh!t to say Miranda bears no responsibility for Jack's creation.  She supports and apologizes for an organization that has no ethical qualms/boundaries and no compunction.  She's as guilty as any of them, and she has no excuses.

[Errationatus]

SirOccam wrote...

JakeMacDon wrote...

I hate to invoke Godwin's Law here, but administering Auschwitz from Berlin makes you AS GUILTY as being a guard inside.

Miranda may not have been at Teltin, but she's as guilty as anyone there.

But did Miranda "administer" Teltin? Aren't they entirely different cells? I am genuinely curious, as I could easily be misunderstanding. But my understanding was that Cerberus cells are more or less independent of all the other ones.

That's nonsense.  The only reason the cells are seperate so as not to lead authorities back to TIM.  They're not independant of him or his most trusted, now would they be?

And besides, Miranda doesn't seem much older than Jack, so she'd probably be a child herself when that stuff was happening to Jack (that's purely speculation on my part; I have no idea how old either one is).

Her age then or now is irrelevant.  She knows who Jack is, she knows what Teltin is enough to apologize for it to Shepard - she knows.  To know and do nothing, not even have the common human decency to apologize when it costs you nothing  - makes you as guilty.

I think a more apt analogy would be holding an Air Force general responsible for Abu Ghraib. They were all part of the US military, but one had nothing to do with the other.

I have to disagree.  Bush knew.  Cheney knew.  Their lieutenants knew.  They are as guilty as the men and women who did what they did at the prison. If you have the power to stop it and you do nothing - if you spin it or try to excuse it, you are as guilty as the torturers.  In some ways you are worse because you enable the basterds.

If you want what I think of as a more apt analogy, think "Blackwater", and organizations such as they.  Independant, yet who contracted and paid them?  Agents of the US government.  So who is ultimately responsible for the crimes they committed?

[Errationatus]

Gethforceone wrote...

Pacifien wrote...

I take Miranda and Jack's confrontation as a visual representation of a flame war. Miranda might have felt that what the Teltin Cell did was wrong, but she wasn't going to give Jack the satisfaction of knowing that, especially if Jack was going to be in-your-face about it. Instead, she chose her words to cut deep.

Indeed.

But I have to wonder if she's just saying some things for Shepard's benefit.

^This.

[AntiChri5]

Miranda certainly does not escape being tarred with Cerberus's brush in my mind, but to blame her for things they did when she was a child is absurd.

Miranda joined Cerberus roughly around the time Jack escaped, so to hold Miranda responsible for this specific atrocity is absurd.

[Batlass8]

AntiChri5 wrote...

Miranda certainly does not escape being tarred with Cerberus's brush in my mind, but to blame her for things they did when she was a child is absurd.
Miranda joined Cerberus roughly around the time Jack escaped, so to hold Miranda responsible for this specific atrocity is absurd.

This is true.  But I feel it's more than fair to call her out for defending these actions if/when she chooses to do so.

[Loki330]

AntiChri5 wrote...

Miranda certainly does not escape being tarred with Cerberus's brush in my mind, but to blame her for things they did when she was a child is absurd.
Miranda joined Cerberus roughly around the time Jack escaped, so to hold Miranda responsible for this specific atrocity is absurd.

True, but it's not unreasonable to want an apology for something bad happening to you. A real life example is Britain is still waiting for Japan to apologise for what they did to POW's in the second world war. Some of the Japanese prime ministers weren't even born at the time, but it's still a sore point with quite alot of brits that Japan hasn't apologiesed.

...then again, in fairness to Miranda Jack isn't exactly very good with diplomacy. Or tact.

[Errationatus]

AntiChri5 wrote...

Miranda certainly does not escape being tarred with Cerberus's brush in my mind, but to blame her for things they did when she was a child is absurd.
Miranda joined Cerberus roughly around the time Jack escaped, so to hold Miranda responsible for this specific atrocity is absurd.

Is it?  Let's take the example of a Holocaust denier.  To a Holocaust survivor, to be told that what they lived through was not only false, but that they are liars could be labelled... what?  Pique?  Pissy-pantness? Cattiness?

The denier is attempting to abrogate and absolve a criminal organization of its greatest crime.  It is irrelevant if the denier is 30 and the survivor 80.  It is irrelevant that they weren't there.  The denier is tacitly supporting and apologizing for the organization that perpetrated the crime.  That makes them part of the crime, whether they were there or not, IMO.

Justifiying Miranda's actions is nothing more than semantic bullsh!t.  She has no justification.  She would have to do a helluva lot more to be redeemed in my eyes than she has.  Personally, I'd throw her off the ship a damn sight quicker than Jack.  Even her excuse to Shepard is crapola.  "Well, the Ukrainian police shot those Jews, not Germans, so that's different.  We're not responsible for that bit of the Holocaust."

Really?

To say Miranda was justified to say what she did because Jack "provoked her" by "intruding"  misses the point almost entirely and is actually rather a stupid thing to say.

There is no defensible position for Miranda in this instance.

Modifié par JakeMacDon, 23 décembre 2010 - 07:32 .

[Errationatus]

Loki330 wrote...

AntiChri5 wrote...

Miranda certainly does not escape being tarred with Cerberus's brush in my mind, but to blame her for things they did when she was a child is absurd.
Miranda joined Cerberus roughly around the time Jack escaped, so to hold Miranda responsible for this specific atrocity is absurd.

True, but it's not unreasonable to want an apology for something bad happening to you. A real life example is Britain is still waiting for Japan to apologise for what they did to POW's in the second world war. Some of the Japanese prime ministers weren't even born at the time, but it's still a sore point with quite alot of brits that Japan hasn't apologiesed.

...then again, in fairness to Miranda Jack isn't exactly very good with diplomacy. Or tact.

Jack's attitude is utterly irrelevant to Miranda's response to it.  This is a "blame the victim" attitude.  The survivor confronts the denier and because the survivor was rude, that justifies the denier's tactless and rather vicious response?

Wow.  Just ...wow.

[Loki330]

Pft, I'm pointing out Jack's not very good at getting people to agree to things without threats of force or intimidation, something Miranda doesn't respond well to. You're a case in point; push the right buttons and you can get even a reasonable person to become abrupt, accusative and rude.

[Gethforceone]

"...As if the fact that Jack has been a victim blinds people to her flaws, and that Miranda is Cerberus blinds people to her virtues."

That was posted in the Miranda thread. Not really sure what about that.

Modifié par Gethforceone, 23 décembre 2010 - 08:03 .

[Ieldra]

@JakeMacDon:



Jack's attitude *is* relevant to how the conversation goes. You know Jack - she'd barge into Miranda's office spoiling for a fight. Then she proceeds to threaten her with death by "smearing the wall" with her. Calling that "being rude" is somewhat of an understatement, don't you think? I wouldn't give such a person an apology even if I thought she deserved one (I'm not saying Jack doesn't deserve one).



As for "it wasn't Cerberus", there is no blaming the victim going on and no denying. Miranda doesn't tell Jack what she suffered through didn't happen, nor that the Teltin facility didn't start as a Cerberus operation. She just refuses to acknowledge that what happened to Jack was sanctioned by Cerberus' leadership. It may sound like a flimsy excuse, but it's supported by evidence in the game - as opposed to all other Cerberus facilities in the game. You could reasonably expect Miranda to own up to all other Cerberus operations before this one.



To expect Miranda to apologize for something she can yet disown with some reason is unreasonable. She'd need more evidence before accepting such a thing. She should look for more evidence, she should've looked more closely for years. That's her defining character flaw, and it's worse because otherwise she is something of an infovore, she collects information about everything and everyone. But that's the only thing I can fault her for. To say that she was part of any particular atrocity is an empty claim 100% unsupported by anything in the game or in other sources.



BTW, that you discount her admitting that Teltin was a mistake to Shepard as an act makes no sense. What if Shepard is Renegade, why doesn't she change her tune then? This, btw, from the woman who told you to your face she'd have implanted you with a control chip. I don't doubt she'd be capable of such an act, but it makes no sense.



Your claim that Miranda knew everything about Cerberus operations is also based on mere supposition that goes against all reasonable black-ops practice. The cells are isolated so that if one cell is compromised, no link to others will be found. Only TIM knows everything. All others, including Miranda, work on a need-to-know basis. That the left hand doesn't know what the right one does is a standard covert ops modus operandi. Miranda probably knew more than the average cell leader, but TIM would know which operations to shield her from if he's the master manipulator we think he es.



And lastly, that you choose to dismiss the good things about Miranda - her love of her sister, the fact that she saved the Citadel from a terrorist attack - as irrelevant is telling. Together with everything else, it makes your reasoning a piece of one-sided propaganda the likes of which I can only compare to Zulu's pro-Cerberus campaign.

[Ieldra]

Gethforceone wrote...
"...As if the fact that Jack has been a victim blinds people to her flaws, and that Miranda is Cerberus blinds people to her virtues."

That was posted in the Miranda thread. Not really sure what about that.

I posted that, and yes, that's the attitude I see at work in some people here (actually, mostly in one).

*Miranda loves her sister - doesn't count
*Miranda is clearly horrified when you take her to Teltin - doesn't count
*Miranda admits that Teltin was a mistake - an act for Shepard's benefit
*Miranda saved the Citadel from a terrorist attack - never mentioned.
*Miranda expresses doubts about the Collector base - doesn't count.

What should I make of that? What I see is "Miranda is Cerberus, of course she's so black inside she darkens the sun", and any evidence to the contrary is brushed aside because of course, Cerberus can't have remotely reasonable people working for them.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 23 décembre 2010 - 08:35 .

[Xilizhra]

As far as I can tell... the first one has no or little bearing on moral alignment, the second is opinion-based (Miranda seemed more in denial than horrified), the third is acceptable but just makes her refusal to admit anything to Jack more baffling, the fourth has nothing to do with the case, and the fifth hasn't even happened.