20813 réponses à ce sujet

[Pacifien]

At this point, I have no idea if this argument is even about Miranda anymore. It's certainly not about Jack.

People have different interpretations of each character. Discussing this is always encouraged, but one would be wise not to approach the discussion as if their interpretation will win out over the other. It won't. Trust me. I am wise and know things about things.

[Epantiras]

Whenever this thread gains more than 3 pages in a day it means that there's some... fiery discussion going on, usually ending badly. So please, everyone follow Paci's advice :-)

[Gemini1179]

*pit stop* Love Jack!

[SirOccam]

[quote]JakeMacDon wrote...
[quote]SirOccam wrote...

Not being willing to apologize in the middle of an argument makes you guilty? That's absurd. She obviously doesn't like Jack--and that's not a crime--and in the middle of an argument she's supposed to grovel for forgiveness for something that happened when she was 11?[/quote]

Not at all.  She doesn't need to apologize for herself.  I never said she did.  She doesn't apologize for anything, she rubs it in.  But doing so, she is condoning what happened to Jack.  That makes her no better than the people who tortured Jack in the first place.[/quote]
How does she condone it? She simply emphasizes that it was one particular cell. As Jack clearly seems to hate Miranda for it regardless, how can we really condemn Miranda for being on the defensive?

[quote]JakeMacDon wrote...
[quote]Even if you want to persist in thinking that Miranda's a horrible person for not liking Jack or for not apologizing in that one heated moment, certainly holding her responsible for what happened to Jack is pretty clearly unreasonable, right?[/quote]

I don't hold Miranda responsible for anything except being a Cerberus apologist and a vicious b!tch, when confronted with something Cerberus wrought has the gall to call her a "mistake".[/quote]
Jack's kind of a b!tch herself, a fact she's proud of (and I love that about her). And as I referred to before, they're in the middle of a pretty heated argument. I don't think we should assume everything they say in the middle of a catfight is a carefully considered manifesto.


[quote]JakeMacDon wrote...
[quote]Uh, but we're not talking about Bush or Cheney or "their lieutenants," remember? It was some random Air Force general. Do you think everyone in every branch of the military should be held responsible for it?[/quote]
Of course not.  I'm talking about ultimate responsibility.  Commanders are responsible for their troops - and what they do in the field.  To shirk responsibility is to become part of the crime.[/quote]
Yes, again, someone is responsible, but Miranda should not be that someone. She has a decent rank, but in a completely different part of the organization. Hence the comparison to an Air Force general.

[quote]I suspect you'll say no because you've now added "if you have the power to stop it and you do nothing" and "if you spin it or try to excuse it." Did Miranda have the power to stop it? She was 11, remember? Even if we talk about Teltin in general AFTER Miranda attained some kind of rank, you've no proof she had any knowledge of it whatsoever.[/quote]

And you have no proof she didn't, and I never said she absolutely knew.  I said it was as likely, being as high in the organization as she undoubtedly was.  No, she didn't have the power to stop it, but she did have the power to take some responsibility for it, and she refused.  Apologizing to Shepard means nothing.  It didn't happen to him, now did it?[/quote]
Guilty until proven innocent, eh? I guess that tells me all I really need to know.

[quote]JakeMacDon wrote...
[quote]And did she try to spin or excuse it? I don't think so.[/quote]

"It wasn't Cerberus, not really - "  WTF is that if not spin?[/quote]
It's being defensive. It's trying to say that the entire organization wasn't in on it. Jack looks about ready to tear her head off for it.

[quote]JakeMacDon wrote...
[quote]All she's "guilty" of is getting angry at and having words with Jack, and getting a bit defensive. I probably would be, too, if I were her. If you want to hold TIM responsible, or even say Cerberus as an organization is tainted because of it, then fine, but as I said, there's no proof that Miranda had any knowledge of it or ever had the power to stop it. And she never, to my knowledge, defends anyone who wasn't actually responsible.[/quote]

She defend the entire organization, and she does it over and over.  Did you not pay attention to anything she actually said, or were you blinded by bodacious tatas?[/quote]
*sigh* It's a damn video game, dude. What's with the hostility?

[quote]JakeMacDon wrote...
[quote]This only works if you make some major assumptions, the same ones you've been making. Anyone who knew about what they did and had the power to stop it but didn't should be held accountable, but how do you know Miranda knew about it and had the power to stop it?[/quote]

Sigh.  I never said she could have stopped Teltin and didn't.  It was never about that, and I was fairly certain I had been clear, but apparently not, because you keep missing my point almost entirely.  I'm just going to assume that's my fault.[/quote]
You keep moving the goalposts. First you outright said she should be held responsible, then you said she should be held responsible if she knew about it and had the power to stop it and did nothing. Well there's no proof she knew about it OR had the power to stop it, but now you're saying that's not your point, so I assume that means you're changing your argument yet again. I guess it's because she didn't take the opportunity to beg forgiveness on Cerberus' behalf? In the middle of a massive argument with tempers running high. I'm sure whenever you're in a yelling match you always make sure to be completely politically correct.

[SirOccam]

Sorry, I'm done. Clearly there won't be a winner here. People are free to hate whoever they want, for whatever reasons, rational or otherwise.

[Errationatus]

adriano_c wrote...

JakeMacDon wrote...

Well, I never said nor implied that she was "Goebbels-like".  All I said was that she was an unrepenant apologist for Cerberus.

But...

Miranda is not on the outside looking in - she's sitting near the fvcking top watching it happen.

She is not some minor agent - she is an intregal part of Cerberus.  That makes her complicit.

You've actually been pretty adamant that she was some sort of "top advisor" or "right-hand man" privy to all of Cerberus' dirty little secrets, when, on the contrary, the only thing we know with complete certainty is that (again) each cell (one of which Miranda operates and is part of) is independent of the rest in both practice and awareness. The only thing binding them together is a common goal, probable funding, and that old guy's general oversight.

I never said she was privy to all of them.  She certainly seems to know a helluva lot, yet she excuses all of it. Miranda is a top operative of TIM's.  How many operations does he have going on at any one time?  According to the lore - only those he can personally have direct oversight - so not too many.  TIM is completely paranoid - yet Miranda is in his office, and they're pretty casual.  He tasks her with his biggest ambition yet - the resurrection of Shepard - and all the logistics of finding, fighting and defeating the Collectors.

Yet, she don't know squat about Cerberus or what else it might be doing, even though she may have to draw resources and specialists from all over it to do her job.

Yeah.  Right.  Inference is a dying art apparently. 

So, really, like it or not, ignorance does relieve her of any personal guilt specifically to do with Jack that might act as an impetus to peacebly settle the situation.

If Miranda were as ignorant as y'all think, this might be accurate.  I don't think it is.

Her (Miranda) being a stubborn, unsympathetic, two-faced (this last quality is the most repugnant) b*tch is another matter altogether.

On this we agree.  And Pacifen is right, of course.  This is devolving away from the central point a bit.  Still, I thought it enjoyable while it lasted.  And it did get the Jack thread yakking again. 

Modifié par JakeMacDon, 24 décembre 2010 - 07:14 .

[Errationatus]

SirOccam wrote...

Sorry, I'm done. Clearly there won't be a winner here. People are free to hate whoever they want, for whatever reasons, rational or otherwise.

I wasn't trying to "win" - and I resent the implied slam.  I don't "hate" fictional characters, I simply try to argue in their spirit, as it were.

Fine.  Jack was rude and Miranda guiltless, and that "argument" is the shallowest and sorriest excuse for bashing Jack I have yet to see. Let us simply ignore everything else about Miranda  except her surface and condemn Jack for being an immature and combative little b!tch child for having the temerity to accost the aristocratic  Miranda for wanting some kinda of closure for her trivial experiences at Teltin.  That was a different Cerberus at a different time, run by different people who shared completely different ideologies. And every last member of it - except TIM - is completely guiltless of any crime its ever committed because it's only the three bad guys over there that Shepard will soon kill.

Fvcking hell. 

Whatever.  Talk about denial.  Have it y'all's way.  

Modifié par JakeMacDon, 24 décembre 2010 - 07:42 .

[Errationatus]

Oh, yah -

Merry Holidays, everybody!

[adriano_c]

JakeMacDon wrote...

I never said she was privy to all of them.  She certainly seems to know a helluva lot, yet she excuses all of it. Miranda is a top operative of TIM's.  How many operations does he have going on at any one time?  According to the lore - only those he can personally have direct oversight - so not too many.  TIM is completely paranoid - yet Miranda is in his office, and they're pretty casual.  He tasks her with his biggest ambition yet - the resurrection of Shepard - and all the logistics of finding, fighting and defeating the Collectors.

Yet, she don't know squat about Cerberus or what else it might be doing, even though she may have to draw resources and specialists from all over it to do her job.

Sure, she's a top operative who reports directly to him, as per her job. That doesn't mean he trusts her anymore than that random woman bringing him the datapad in the same scene you mentioned. In all likelihood he probably keeps a closer eye and tighter check on her than the rest because she's the best (knowing his nature). What that says to me, at least, is that he has even more reason to keep her in the dark about certain other things he's got on the burner. Regardless, that's a bit too much speculation on my part because...

Yeah.  Right.  Inference is a dying art apparently.

...as you know, the first rule in any "debate" (not that I'd really label this as such) is - stick to what you can prove based on the facts.

What do we know? You already know!

If Miranda were as ignorant as y'all think, this might be accurate.  I don't think it is.

Okay, as long as we're in agreement that your mind is the scene of the crime!

On this we agree.  And Pacifen is right, of course.  This is devolving away from the central point a bit.  Still, I thought it enjoyable while it lasted.  And it did get the Jack thread yakking again. 

Pacifien's a downer.

[Pacifien]

I'm sorry I implied anyone was trying to win the debate here. You may continue discussing in the most spirited fashion as it appears to be entertaining the three of you most readily. All the others can learn to deal with the increased hostility of the thread or, more likely, walk away and not look back. That's fine.

[SirOccam]

JakeMacDon wrote...

SirOccam wrote...

Sorry, I'm done. Clearly there won't be a winner here. People are free to hate whoever they want, for whatever reasons, rational or otherwise.

I wasn't trying to "win" - and I resent the implied slam.  I don't "hate" fictional characters, I simply try to argue in their spirit, as it were.

Okay, first, I was just agreeing with Pacifien there, because he said neither side will win out over the other. I have come to see that he was right.

Secondly, how is it a slam? Ostensibly anyone debating anything is doing so with the intent to win, aren't they? The whole point is to convince other people that your view is correct, be it with facts or superior reasoning or whatever else. Hell, I was trying to win...is that a bad thing?

JakeMacDon wrote...

Fine.  Jack was rude and Miranda guiltless, and that "argument" is the shallowest and sorriest excuse for bashing Jack I have yet to see. Let us simply ignore everything else about Miranda except her surface and condemn Jack for being an immature and combative little b!tch child for having the temerity to accost the aristocratic Miranda for wanting some kinda of closure for her trivial experiences at Teltin. That was a different Cerberus at a different time, run by different people who shared completely different ideologies. And every last member of it - except TIM - is completely guiltless of any crime its ever committed because it's only the three bad guys over there that Shepard will soon kill.

When did I ever bash Jack? I'm crazy about Jack; like I said she's my favorite companion out of the whole bunch. I just don't think either one has to be proven to be the "good guy." I like Miranda too, if not as much as Jack. The fact that they despise each other doesn't mean I'm obligated to choose sides.

Fvcking hell.

Whatever. Talk about denial. Have it y'all's way.

Sorry for not joining you in your assumptions, speculations, and subsequent condemnations. You want so badly to make Miranda out to be some kind of monster that you make all sorts of guesses about her motivations that we simply don't have the information to back up. Did she know about Teltin and/or have the ability to do something about it? I don't know, but I doubt it. Does she really think what was done there was okay? I don't know, but I doubt it. Does she think TIM is a saint or that Cerberus is perfect? I--well no.

Like I said before, you are going with a "guilty until proven innocent" approach that just doesn't work for me. I like both companions, and the fact that they are at each other's throats doesn't have to change that.

[BobbyTheI]

I miss the good old days, when we all agreed that the whole argument was a front for their secret desires to do each other.

Or, wait... I think that was just me that agreed on that. 

[royceclemens]

Throw up the picture, Bob. It's gotten entirely too serious up in here.

[Pacifien]

[royceclemens]

That takes me back.



You're awesome Paci. Don't let anybody tell you different.

[jtav]

*dies laughing*



Not my ship, but...

[Pacifien]

Now if only I had a link to Bobby's glimpses into the world of Jack and Miranda behind closed doors...

[JexyG]

So we're in agreement that I win, right?

[royceclemens]

Pacifien wrote...

Now if only I had a link to Bobby's glimpses into the world of Jack and Miranda behind closed doors...

You mean... this?

http://www.mediafire.com/?dmdmjl3txyj

[Pacifien]

Sorry, Jexy, royce wins this one.

[LiquidGrape]

Oh, dear...that poster. That audio clip. It's like watching my past waving back at me. Waving back at me with a piece of erotic fan fiction clutched in its hand.

Modifié par LiquidGrape, 24 décembre 2010 - 10:55 .

[goofyomnivore]

royceclemens wrote...

Pacifien wrote...

Now if only I had a link to Bobby's glimpses into the world of Jack and Miranda behind closed doors...

You mean... this?

http://www.mediafire.com/?dmdmjl3txyj

LOL. I had never heard that before thank you.

[SirOccam]

royceclemens wrote...

Pacifien wrote...

Now if only I had a link to Bobby's glimpses into the world of Jack and Miranda behind closed doors...

You mean... this?

http://www.mediafire.com/?dmdmjl3txyj

That...was genius.

[BobbyTheI]

SirOccam wrote...

royceclemens wrote...

Pacifien wrote...

Now if only I had a link to Bobby's glimpses into the world of Jack and Miranda behind closed doors...

You mean... this?

http://www.mediafire.com/?dmdmjl3txyj

That...was genius.

Ah, yes, back when I was unemployed, and had nothing better to do than sit around and listen to the entire audio banks of ME2 listening for exploitable lines to clip together.

I took the link out of my sig because I hadn't updated it in ages, but for folks looking for the rest of these little pieces, they're here: http://social.biowar...5/index/2028268

(I'm still disappointed that I never got around to doing one with Harbinger.  "This hurts you" indeed.)